Should I use this old 55gal tank as a refugium

[Turtle]

When I build this next stand for a 75gl  tank. Should I use a old 55gal as a sump? It would give me so many options for many things.  Help my plan my next aquarium stand please. Turtle 🐢 

[StevesFishTanks]

I say go for it as long as it passes its leak test

[Turtle]

$40 yard sale I have to build the sump so I will seal it . It will probably only have about 30gal in it .water level will be managed by the tower depth. Do you think I should plant the center with moss or something equivalent to eat the nitrates? There is so much you can do with a 48 inch sump.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

That's a big sump for the size of the tank.  Will you have a high bioload in the DP?  Mind you, I am in no way discouraging you.  I'm really just curious.  I'd say a refugium to pull nitrates would be very useful, especially if you have a large bioload.  I've got a 13 gal one planned for my sump build for my 250 gal.  I do think refugiums are under utilized on FW sumps.  Keep us posted, and when you are done with it; picts please!  🙂

[Patrick_G]

I’m all for the sump, but I’m thinking something a bit different. How about making the sump more or less a jungle planted tank with no dividers and few if any fish. Or maybe just one small division of about ten gallons that’s full of coarse sponge? 

[Tihshho]

If you plan on going the sump route with it I would keep the plants limited to floaters. The reason being is so you don't have to put substrate in the sump. Deep sand bed filters are not 'ideal' in a lot of freshwater applications and it's yet another thing you have to maintain. Keep the sump simple, one stage with mechanical, another with biological (make DIY air based tumbler for K1 or K2 media) and run a few of those, then another stage for stationary biomedia like bioballs or the Brightwell Aquatics Xport where you can have floaters above it. From there I'd put a submersible pump to a media reactor to force water to go through your chemical media (if you even need it) and from there a return. If you want to be real OCD, you can put a UV filter inline with the return to the tank.

[Jimmy]

Sounds like a fun project but probably not necessary. It’s my understanding that we don’t always need such high bio capacity. Probably an appropriate size sponge filter would have all the porosity you would ever need 

[Tihshho]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:33 PM, Jimmy said:

Sounds like a fun project but probably not necessary. It’s my understanding that we don’t always need such high bio capacity. Probably an appropriate size sponge filter would have all the porosity you would ever need 

In most cases you're right, but it all depends on what he's stocking in the display. If it's a community tank, it will be wayyyy overkill. If he's putting larger waste producing species, it might help a bit, but still unnecessary. If he's popping in a few Oscars, large cichlids, or heck a turtle (couldn't resist) then this would be extremely beneficial. 

[Turtle]

The plan in the display tank is still open. Over stock cichlid tank ? Maybe? the main reason is time extended water changes due to my job.  Cichlids are on my mind but a over stocked tank will run out of room  in time. This fish room is a 10x12 bedroom  using 3 out of the four walls due to a window I don't want to block.

🐚 dwellers are in the lab's are in  75 now and two more 75g mixed are wet around the house . My 30 year old 45 tall is getting sealed. I have piston pump to install .  Most of the rescue fish. ( and yes they all came to me as rescue fish.) I have a 55gal just full of cory Cats  😆  what  huge project. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:10 PM, Tihshho said:

Keep the sump simple, one stage with mechanical, another with biological (make DIY air based tumbler for K1 or K2 media) and run a few of those, then another stage for stationary biomedia like bioballs

I see this sort of thing a lot in sumps.  I call it the "smörgåsbord approach" to biomedia; a little of everything, just in case.  The thing is they are all doing the same job, which is providing a surface upon which N oxidation can occur via nitrifying bacteria.  Yes, there are differences in efficiency, but they all do the same job.  I know one YouTuber, who I otherwise like a lot, who has like 6 different biomedia types in his sump.  Unless you like looking at your sump, and enjoy the variety of textures and colors in there, there really is no purpose for it all.  Pick the media that works for you and go with it. 

On 8/30/2021 at 12:49 AM, Turtle said:

the main reason is time extended water changes due to my job

If this is the case, then yes an "oversized" sump could help, though plants might help more, if you do those.  The biggest thing would be an automatic water changer.  I currently only have the drain lines operable for mine, and already it's a game changer.  I can change the water in all of the hooked up tanks in 5 minutes by just pouring tap water in (I'm on a well, so no Cl to worry about).  Any chance you can put the tank against a wall with a bathroom behind it?  Then plumbing into the drain for a sink can become an option.  Just a thought.

[Tihshho]

On 8/30/2021 at 8:09 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

The thing is they are all doing the same job, which is providing a surface upon which N oxidation can occur via nitrifying bacteria.  Yes, there are differences in efficiency, but they all do the same job.

Yes they do the same job as in breaking down organics, but it's how they do it that matters. Having K1/K2 in an air based tumbler adds a method of biological filtration that is based on aerobic bacteria without having to go with a wet/dry stage approach, the blocks on the other hand provide homes for anaerobic bacteria. Both work wonders in filtration, but the methods are drastically different and filter differently. To go through and say "They do the same job" is only partially correct and to only go with one method rather than both reduces the efficiency of a sump. This isn't a case where you're doing something redundantly and you won't see benefits from taking both approaches.

[Turtle]

I water change system will happen I've already run the pvc line. My problem is iam on a  Septic system I can't dump that kind of water into it as old as it is I have no way to drain . I would have to  Capture and pump. I have to treat the water  .so the plan is pump to a holding tank / treat/ pump to tank's. I may have to revise the idea for waste water. Florida home so it all has to go overhead through the attic. In and out

Fun don't you thing? But i am totally committed to the project. Retirement in 5yr  . This is going to be baby. 🐢 

[Tihshho]

For the drain, can you tap into a nearby sink? Besides that, since you said Florida, is if you have a garden, have your drain attached to a hose and water your plants in the yard or even your lawn, they will thank you for all the nutrients!

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 8/30/2021 at 8:44 AM, Tihshho said:

the blocks on the other hand provide homes for anaerobic bacteria

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but the foam is not anaerobic and the bacteria on both are the same.  Here is an accessible reference about it.  I do agree that both wet/dry and K1 will likely add more aeration. 

On 8/30/2021 at 9:50 AM, Turtle said:

I water change system will happen I've already run the pvc line. My problem is iam on a  Septic system I can't dump that kind of water into it as old as it is I have no way to drain . I would have to  Capture and pump. I have to treat the water  .so the plan is pump to a holding tank / treat/ pump to tank's. I may have to revise the idea for waste water. Florida home so it all has to go overhead through the attic. In and out

This sounds like quite the endeavor!  I'll be interested to see updates as this all come together.

I think @Tihshho has a great idea with the dumping the waste water on the garden!  If I didn't live where the weather would freeze out such efforts for 7 months a year, I'd be all about that.

[Tihshho]

On 8/30/2021 at 3:00 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but the foam is not anaerobic and the bacteria on both are the same.  Here is an accessible reference about it.  I do agree that both wet/dry and K1 will likely add more aeration. 

I was never talking about foam, I admit using 'bioballs' in the example was a mistake on my part, but the Xport-Bio by Brightwell is a dense material that is thick. The thing about anaerobic bacteria is that it thrives in areas of media that are getting low to no O2 exchange, a light and porous media can contain anaerobic bacteria, but not as much as a more solid and dense material such as Xport-Bio (product link here to the manufacturer described applications.) Being that you're not getting significant water flow through this media means its a treasure trove of anaerobic bacteria.

The link you provided giving an overview is mostly correct in saying that anaerobic bacteria material is a marketing scheme, the portion that they didn't cover is why. Let's break it down with an example. Say you have a 75 gallon tank and for this sake there isn't any substrate in the tank and no decor, just water equipment and stock. On this tank you have an AquaClear 110 HOB. Overall, the filter without any media is holds about 2 gallons of water and little surface area and a pump capable of handling 500 GPH. So to make the math simple, no media + empty tank you're talking about a theoretical volume of approximately 77 gallons. Now lets layer media into it. Forget the mechanical filtration, lets look at this 'debunked' media. If you fill the AC 110 with the loose version you're getting tons of surface area for both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, BUT being that a these are a lot of smaller pieces of media you're mainly getting surface area for aerobic bacteria and not a large enough dense set of material to house anaerobic bacteria. With the theoretical 500 GPH pump flowing water into the filter you're getting about 250 times turn over per hour for the volume of the filter (yes I know I'm overlooking displacement here.) This is a lot of turn over without a lot of contact time with the material, water goes in, passes the material and then goes out back to the tank at a fast rate. Now lets replace the AC110 with a 55 gallon sump that contains solely this media and the water volume is limited to 20 gallons with a return pump of the same 500GPH. The turn over for the sump is 25 times per hour. Why does this matter in determining if anaerobic bacteria media is debunked? It's all about contact time. Anaerobic bacteria being so deep into the media doesn't work quick, it requires you to have the space for larger volumes of media in relation to the amount of water the bacteria will be feeding off of. I agree that setting up a HOB or canister with this material is a waste of time, but setting it up correctly will yield significantly different results. 

Looking at a real world application, deep sand beds in reef tanks or saltwater refugium's. This process has been around for a long long time and has shown significant benefits. That said though, in the case of sand you need to be more concerned about gasses building up and releasing, but in the case of solid media gasses cannot grow and expand until they pop, the gas output is always constantly of gassing into the aquarium rather than in one large release which is known to cause issues. 

 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

Yup, I understand everything you are saying.  I don't agree with a number of details though.  However, I think I'll leave it there for a couple of reasons: 

1. I don't want to deviate too far from the OP's thread.  I'm stoked to see how this all turns out and I think it's a cool project, so I'd hate to take away anything from that. 

2. This seems to be headed down a road about the efficacy of "anoxic denitrification" in home aquaria.  I've learned the hard way that this can get heated surprisingly quickly (though, I do want to state directly, I am in no way, shape, or form accusing you of that - you have been kind, courteous, and exceptionally civil).  I suspect the tendency for this topic to go off the rails makes the mods edgy (with reason based on history) and I don't want to run afoul of the vibe here, again.  I hope you can understand. 

That said, if you want to chat about the topic, I'm always happy to do so if you want to DM me (I think that is legit around here, and if not hopefully a mod will let me know).  I do think it's an interesting topic, and worthy of calm and measured discourse.