Dying Endlers in a Newish Setup

[ReedJM]

Hi everyone,

I've been a long-time Aquarium Co-op fan, but this is my first time posting on the forum. About 6 weeks ago we got 9 endler guppies from a generally very good LFS. There were 4 obvious females, 2 males, and one that has since matured and is now obviously a male. They had bred in the store and all seemed energetic and ate well, so I assumed they didn't have any disease and didn't quarantine. A week ago one of the females gave birth and we have 3 growing fry from her now, but she looked stressed the next day (breathing heavily and hiding) and died two days later. Today, which is about a week after the first female showed signs of stress, one of the males died. The fish all seem lethargic and the ones that have died have been breathing heavily in the final stages before death. In appearance, the fish all seem healthy. I did also see one of the fry flash on a rock once, but it seems like an external parasite/infection is unlikely since the fish all look fine. Maybe he flashed due to ammonia irritation.

Here is a video of the fish soon after we brought them home. I've also added pictures below of a group shot, the male who died today, and a (admittedly bad) close up a surviving male and female together that the forum software seems to have flipped.

Water Parameters:

• Temp: 80 F
• Ammonia: maybe 0? I use the API test strips because I've had allergic reactions to the API liquid test kits for ammonia and nitrate. My ammonia strip was a bit green at the edges of the pad but mostly bright yellow (See the picture below) so maybe there is some ammonia in the water.
• Nitrite: 0
• Nitrate: 0
• KH: 180 ppm
• GH: 120 ppm
• pH: 7.5

The tank is 12 gallons with a sponge filter, a dirted center island-scape where crypts and rotala are planted, and the water surface is covered in giant duckweed, so I hesitate to say that there is an ammonia issue, because duckweed has always kept my cherry shrimp tanks perfectly clean with the same sponge filter setup. The sponge filter has been established in a shrimp tank for over a year before I moved it to this setup.

To address this, so far I've add a 1.5 dose of Seachem Prime (38 drops) straight into the tank in case it's ammonia causing the issue. The tank has had 2 ~40% (5 gallon) water changes since it was set up, with one of them being about 10 days ago.

I live in Canada, so my access to medication is limited, but I do have copper drops for ich, "planaria zero," which I'm pretty sure is just a generic de-wormer, fenbendazole,  the API salt med.

What do you think could be the issue here? We would love to fix this because the  tank is at eye level for our two daughters and they love the fish and are excited to keep seeing the colony grow.

Thanks,

Reed

 

[Colu]

Their could two things going on the Frist female could have had complications from giving birth or it could be gill flukes with the rapid breathing  the meds you have won't be very effective against gill flukes the active ingredient in planaria zero is betel.nut palm extract that . won't be very effective against gill flukes flukes feed off mucous layer when treating with salt your fish will at frist produce more mucous adding a lay of protection to the flukes at the level need to treat fluke you will see how increase mortilaty in juvenile fish  I would recommend contacting a vet and getting a prescription for praziquantel if your going to treat with aquarium salt I would recommend 1table spoon  for 1 gallon salt bath for no more than 15 minutes 2-3 times a day is the most affective way to treat with salt for external parasites.

[Guppysnail]

You may want to slow your water flow they do not do well in strong current. The constant struggle to swim exhausts them and weakens their immune system.  They prefer calmer water. Welcome I hope your fish recover

[CalmedByFish]

The only thing I can think of is to see if you can add another air stone, just to make certain there's plenty oxygen in the water. For the same reason, it would probably help to lower the temp. Higher temps require more aeration than lower temps (though I don't remember the science behind it). I have endlers. I'd say to get them down to at least 74, but probably 72 is better.

[ReedJM]

Thanks for the replies everyone. We had one more fish die. We are the middle of a heat wave, so there isn't a huge amount I can do to lower the water temp, but the temperature seems like it could also be playing a role in the deaths. @CalmedByFish, the thing about temperature is that the higher the water temperature the less dissolved gas it is able to hold. It's just a function of physics, from what I understand, rather than something directly related to fish biology. I'll definitely turn off the heater. I had read a while ago that endlers prefer temperatures above 78, but now I'm reading that it really doesn't matter as long as they stay at least at room temperature.

I'll also start doing the salt water baths like  @Colu recommended. How many days would you recommend as a starting point, for the salt baths?

[ReedJM]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:05 PM, Guppysnail said:

You may want to slow your water flow they do not do well in strong current. The constant struggle to swim exhausts them and weakens their immune system.  They prefer calmer water. Welcome I hope your fish recover

Makes sense. The tank has a back chamber with a return pump so the flow is very localized to right in front of the return nozzle. Most of the tank experiences very gently flow, but in the video they were swimming right into the nozzle because usually that's where I drop food (so it gets distributed by the pump a bit).

EDIT: After watching the video, it looks like I had actually just fed them.

Edited August 16, 2021 by ReedJM

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:16 AM, ReedJM said:

 I had read a while ago that endlers prefer temperatures above 78, but now I'm reading that it really doesn't matter as long as they stay at least at room temperature.

Yeah, I'd heard that from some sources, too. But after finding quite a few sources that did seem to have experience with endlers, I ended up putting this in my notes, "Safe at 64-85. Not a bad species to have if the AC or heater goes out."

I also found an article where someone had tested gender ratios of fry who spent fertilization to birth at different temps. 77 was the 50/50 male to female temp. The lower the temp, the more females. The higher the temp, the more males. 

Anyway, you've definitely got some wiggle room. 

[Colu]

On 8/16/2021 at 4:16 PM, ReedJM said:

. How many days would you recommend as a starting point, for the salt baths?

I would see have there doing after a couple of days of salt baths if you see some  improvement I would continue with  them for another 3 days 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Colu

[ReedJM]

On 8/16/2021 at 9:59 AM, CalmedByFish said:

Yeah, I'd heard that from some sources, too. But after finding quite a few sources that did seem to have experience with endlers, I ended up putting this in my notes, "Safe at 64-85. Not a bad species to have if the AC or heater goes out."

I also found an article where someone had tested gender ratios of fry who spent fertilization to birth at different temps. 77 was the 50/50 male to female temp. The lower the temp, the more females. The higher the temp, the more males. 

Anyway, you've definitely got some wiggle room. 

Thanks for the info! That's great to hear. It sounds like a good fish for Canada with 95 F weeks in the summer and -5 F weeks in the winter 😂

On 8/16/2021 at 10:42 AM, Colu said:

I would see have there doing after a couple of days of salt baths if you see some  improvement I would continue with  them for another 3 days 

Ok, thanks for the info. We're going to start 2x baths per day tomorrow morning.

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:36 PM, ReedJM said:

Thanks for the info! That's great to hear. It sounds like a good fish for Canada with 95 F weeks in the summer and -5 F weeks in the winter 😂

 

In case you're actually interested in fish that have a wide temp range, check out medaka. 

[ReedJM]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:09 PM, CalmedByFish said:

In case you're actually interested in fish that have a wide temp range, check out medaka. 

Thanks, I actually do think medaka are pretty cool but it never really hit me that they might also do well at high temps. I like endlers because they're nano, easy, and they come in lost of nice colours (very important to my daughters 😂) and to me medaka colours aren't quite as cool, yet

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/20/2021 at 2:33 PM, ReedJM said:

 to me medaka colours aren't quite as cool, yet

I completely agree! I want blue. Blue medaka need to start existing pronto. 

[Guppy Guy]

On 8/16/2021 at 11:16 AM, ReedJM said:

Thanks for the replies everyone. We had one more fish die. We are the middle of a heat wave, so there isn't a huge amount I can do to lower the water temp, but the temperature seems like it could also be playing a role in the deaths.

One way you can lower the temperature is to float a bag of ice cubes in your tank. Try to place it where the fish can’t touch it though, as it could shock them. If your water temperature is below 83F(28.3C) I wouldn’t worry about it. 

I agree with @CalmedByFish. You should add another air stone as oxygen dissipates faster in warmer temperatures then in cooler temperatures. If you don’t like the look of an air stone(like me), you can buy air-operated decorations that still bubble, but look better. 

Below are 2 of my tanks, the bubble in star is in a 10 gallon, and the ship is in a 30 gallon(they come in many sizes).

[ReedJM]

@Guppy Guy, thanks. The fish are all moved to a QT setup in a cooler part of the house now, so heat isn't an issue anymore.

Just to conclude this thread, I decided to take the fish out of the display tank and convert them to a brackish setup over the period of a couple of days to help get rid of any parasites they might have. I realize their DT might need to go fallow for a bit too, and that was part of my thinking when I decided to move them QT. Catching them and dipping them every day seemed to stress them, and @colu mentioned that treating with salt in any other way might harm the young ones, but all I'm really only interested in getting at least 1 breeding pair out of this, and right now I have 3 adult males and 1 adult female. I felt like I had to act quickly to make sure none more succumbed. Since moving them to the brackish setup (1.006 SG, at the moment), I haven't had any more casualties and all the fish seem to be healthy and un-stressed.

 At the end of their time in brackish water I might do fenbendazole before putting them back in the display tank, just to be safe. I'm thinking of starting another thread about treating endler guppies with parasites using salt, so if I have any more questions I'll put them in that thread.