White growth on betta fish lip; similar issue on a neon tetra

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:34 PM, aminowrimo said:

I am very glad I had just ordered a batch of catappa leaves because that whole thing just went into the tank. We're going to have a darkwater scape now!

Wow, I love the way that looks, send pictures if possible @aminowrimo!

I am so curious on how this will turn out with your betta, u learn something new every day in fishkeeping!!

Edited May 30 by Whitecloud09

[Colu]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:34 PM, aminowrimo said:

I am very glad I had just ordered a batch of catappa leaves because that whole thing just went into the tank. We're going to have a darkwater scape now!

Fish can survive for a long time with NTD it's only when a period of stress weakens there immune system that you start to see symptoms I would only euthanize fish that  have symptoms and are going down him rapidly 

Edited May 31 by Colu

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:37 PM, Colu said:

Fish can survive for a long time with NTD it's only when a period of stress weakens there immune system that you start to see symptoms I would only euthanize fish that are have symptoms and are going down him rapidly 

Good to know; the only symptoms we've ever seen is snout chondroma and at one point we definitely had a fish swimming down rapidly and not being able to swim straight at all (always tilted around in circles). But none have ever shown the "classic" signs of NTD so we just couldn't figure out what it was two years ago. But I know for a fact a fish died and was probably consumed in this tank, so for sure the cardinal tetras were exposed. Fonsi must have just nipped the neon with chondromas and gotten the chondroma that way. But I'll keep y'all updated on him and keep taking pictures. I'm really hoping he can beat it, at least on the outside.

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:40 PM, aminowrimo said:

Good to know; the only symptoms we've ever seen is snout chondroma and at one point we definitely had a fish swimming down rapidly and not being able to swim straight at all (always tilted around in circles). But none have ever shown the "classic" signs of NTD so we just couldn't figure out what it was two years ago. But I know for a fact a fish died and was probably consumed in this tank, so for sure the cardinal tetras were exposed. Fonsi must have just nipped the neon with chondromas and gotten the chondroma that way. But I'll keep y'all updated on him and keep taking pictures. I'm really hoping he can beat it, at least on the outside.

Sorry but I am not good with stuff like NTD. I know idk imo and other things, but what does NTD stand for? I am not very wordy 😉. 

[Colu]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:40 PM, aminowrimo said:

Good to know; the only symptoms we've ever seen is snout chondroma and at one point we definitely had a fish swimming down rapidly and not being able to swim straight at all (always tilted around in circles). But none have ever shown the "classic" signs of NTD so we just couldn't figure out what it was two years ago. But I know for a fact a fish died and was probably consumed in this tank, so for sure the cardinal tetras were exposed. Fonsi must have just nipped the neon with chondromas and gotten the chondroma that way. But I'll keep y'all updated on him and keep taking pictures. I'm really hoping he can beat it, at least on the outside.

With all disease that aren't treatable it's all about quality of life  as long as there not impacted and are active eating ok and aren't suffering I just monitor till they get a point were i think it's time let them go 

 

On 5/30/2024 at 11:42 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

Sorry but I am not good with stuff like NTD. I know idk imo and other things, but what does NTD stand for? I am not very wordy 😉. 

Neon tetra disease 

Edited May 30 by Colu

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:42 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

Sorry but I am not good with stuff like NTD. I know idk imo and other things, but what does NTD stand for? I am not very wordy 😉. 

Sorry! Neon Tetra Disease! 

And I'll for sure send pictures of the blackwater. I'll have to stock up on catappa leaves. XD

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:45 PM, aminowrimo said:

Sorry! Neon Tetra Disease! 

And I'll for sure send pictures of the blackwater. I'll have to stock up on catappa leaves. XD

Oh ok that is more simple than I thought lol. 

 

On 5/30/2024 at 6:44 PM, Colu said:

With all disease that aren't treatable it's all about quality of life  as long as there not impacted and are active eating ok and aren't suffering I just monitor till they get a point were i think it's time let them go 

 

Neon tetra disease 

Thanks.

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:44 PM, Colu said:

With all disease that aren't treatable it's all about quality of life  as long as there not impacted and are active eating ok and aren't suffering I just monitor till they get a 

Yeah and that's what we did... I just wish we'd known to euthanize the original six; they had QOL but the chondromas did continue evolving and some did have fins disappear (as OG guy pic showed). Doing that the first time around would have meant we would have had to start over with the tank, but we wouldn't have potentially infected 20+ new fish. 😭

[Colu]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:47 PM, aminowrimo said:

Yeah and that's what we did... I just wish we'd known to euthanize the original six; they had QOL but the chondromas did continue evolving and some did have fins disappear (as OG guy pic showed). Doing that the first time around would have meant we would have had to start over with the tank, but we wouldn't have potentially infected 20+ new fish. 😭

It's all a learning curve most people will never encounter neon tetra disease I lot of disease have very similar symptoms it's not that  easy to diagnose in the early stages 

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:49 PM, Colu said:

It's all a learning curve most people will never encounter neon tetra disease I lot of disease have very similar symptoms it's not that  easy to diagnose in the early stages 

Oh I bet... the current LFS owner was pretty condescending when we mentioned it recently... "You should have salted the tank. Salt fixes almost everything."
I had just finished telling him all the things we tried after salt didn't work.

Oh if my quarantine tank and its filter sat empty and dry for a year, do I still need to sterilize it with hydrogen peroxide? It just had the new fish in it but nothing else. I did just add the airstone from the euth back in there though so I suspect the answer is yes. 😭

Edited May 30 by aminowrimo

[Colu]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:55 PM, aminowrimo said:

Oh I bet... the current LFS owner was pretty condescending when we mentioned it recently... "You should have salted the tank. Salt fixes almost everything."
I had just finished telling him all the things we tried after salt didn't work.

Oh if my quarantine tank and its filter sat empty and dry for a year, do I still need to sterilize it with hydrogen peroxide? It just had the new fish in it but nothing else. I did just add the airstone from the euth back in there though so I suspect the answer is yes. 😭

With quarantine tank you should sterilise them after each use 

[Tony s]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:55 PM, aminowrimo said:

if my quarantine tank and its filter sat empty and dry for a year, do I still need to sterilize it with hydrogen peroxide

It depends. If you're using a quarantine tank to introduce new fish (which you should do for a month on new fish), and you don't see any sign of disease, then probably not.

If you're using your quarantine tank to treat a disease outbreak, you should sterilize it every time. as well as any equipment you've used in it

[nabokovfan87]

I will read through the thread first, but I have had this in my tank and treated it. Details are in my shrimp journal and my 75g journal.  My white clouds had this. I used seachem polyguard.  Kanaplex did not work. Salt helped tremendously as well.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/29/2024 at 6:59 AM, aminowrimo said:

- pH: 6.6 (using ACO strip and verifying with API liquid test)

You need to get your hands on a liquid GH/KH test kit and ensure your water is safe for the fish.  6.6 is pushing it for a lot species.

If you don't have any KH, you may want to figure out a way to get some stability going (see ACO blog article) and ensure your water, tank, and environment is sufficient for the species you are keeping long term.

[aminowrimo]

On 5/30/2024 at 11:24 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will read through the thread first, but I have had this in my tank and treated it. Details are in my shrimp journal and my 75g journal.  My white clouds had this. I used seachem polyguard.  Kanaplex did not work. Salt helped tremendously as well.

Thanks for reading and responding! I went through and read what you had, and I don't think that's what I have. I'm really glad for your fish that it worked! I do think Colu is right and this is NTD.

In case anyone later has a similar issue and is trying to get information, here are the differences between the two cases as far as I can tell:

• my fish's chondromas grew very slowly. No one lost tails. Even on the betta, his scales look great and his tail looks great. The cyst/chondroma has gone from maybe half a millimeter to maybe a millimeter in 2 weeks.  We never had a cyst "pop."
• salt did not help, though it seemed to slow down the development of the chondromas (possibly wishful thinking). We did not have any white residue at the bottom of the tank after treatment with kanaplex and salt. We saw no improvement, just a slowing of the issues (if that), with any of the treatments we tried (salt, Maracyn, Maracyn 2, Kanaplex, ich-X, paracleanse)
• Lymphocystis was mentioned, but the article you linked https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA181 indicates it's a self-limiting disease and often clears up within six weeks; our neons never recovered, and in fact many of them had (slow to extremely slow growing) cysts until they died. It doesn't look like lymphocystis is treatable.
• We did not see any slime on the body, though we did see some mild discoloration on sides. This could be because we have tetras and a betta and you were dealing with other species.
• None of our fish died until 6 months to a year later, despite continuing to have the cysts. The last one, which I euthanized yesterday, lived 2 years after we stopped treatment. This person's experience matches mine, down to the other neons and cardinals introduced not having issues:

What is similar:

• cysts starting to appear within 7-8 days of arrival in your case. For us, it took about 2 weeks before we noticed and could get a picture.

 

On 5/30/2024 at 11:35 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You need to get your hands on a liquid GH/KH test kit and ensure your water is safe for the fish.  6.6 is pushing it for a lot species.

If you don't have any KH, you may want to figure out a way to get some stability going (see ACO blog article) and ensure your water, tank, and environment is sufficient for the species you are keeping long term.

I just tested KH and pH again and I'm a little unsure of how to read the test for KH. My water is very slightly tinged brown to begin with because of the catappa. The instructions want me to count the number of drops until the tube turns yellow. The first drop gives me a green, the second a yellow-green. At five it is for sure bright yellow, everything else I'd characterize yellow-ish. I can try to take pictures tomorrow of the set of tests. This indicates 0-50 ppm (if 1-3 drops), or 50-100ppm (4-6). My water out of the tap is KH 0-50 again. (1 drop was enough to be light yellow)

I'm keeping neons, cardinals, and a betta. The neons and cardinals are fine down to pH 4, from some googling it seems the betta would be ok 6.5-7.5 and some people say even 5.5. Since I for sure don't want the pH to drop further than that and hurt him, I went back to look through my records and since I set up the tank two years ago, the lowest the pH has ever gotten is 6.6 (even from first set-up when cycling). In fact, most of the time when I don't have catappa the tank is 7.0 - 7.2. When I do have catappa, I get down to 6.6. On 5/18 I added two catappa leaves and the tank started dropping down to 6.6. I don't know if the worry is that the tank would experience potential swings even lower than that, but I think I could combat that by adding an airstone in addition to the sponge filter? If given all that information you and other folks feel it would be smart to buy some crushed coral, I'll do that, but for right now this isn't worrying me.

Edited May 31 by aminowrimo

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:04 PM, aminowrimo said:

I just tested KH and pH again and I'm a little unsure of how to read the test for KH. My water is very slightly tinged brown to begin with because of the catappa. The instructions want me to count the number of drops until the tube turns yellow. The first drop gives me a green, the second a yellow-green. At five it is for sure bright yellow, everything else I'd characterize yellow-ish. I can try to take pictures tomorrow of the set of tests. This indicates 0-50 ppm (if 1-3 drops), or 50-100ppm (4-6). My water out of the tap is KH 0-50 again. (1 drop was enough to be light yellow)

Try testing your source water (tap water) and go from there. One drop is one degree, basically.

On 5/31/2024 at 4:04 PM, aminowrimo said:

My water out of the tap is KH 0-50 again. (1 drop was enough to be light yellow)

Yeah.  That's really, really low.

[aminowrimo]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:16 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Try testing your source water (tap water) and go from there. One drop is one degree, basically.

Yeah.  That's really, really low.

I did call around my LFSs today and found one I hadn't been to before that sells aragonite. Picked that up and added two bits to the media bag that's holding the catappa leaves; I'll test again tomorrow and if it doesn't go up within a day or two add more; they said adding the whole bag would probably shoot my pH to 7.8 and I don't want that. What do you think is a reasonable buffer? At least 3, or better to have more like 5?

And thanks for the 1 drop = 1 degree; that's what I thought but the instructions were not explicit.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:04 PM, aminowrimo said:

In fact, most of the time when I don't have catappa the tank is 7.0 - 7.2.

Mine tends to stick around 6.8-7.0

Kh for me is 40, I do have KH buffer if I need to add some.

GH for me is about 80-100.

I keep up on water changes and I try really hard to keep that in check. I absolutely do need to do better with regards to things like testing, but I do use KH/GH tests constantly when need be. The goal is to have enough KH to keep it stable.... Sometimes you might need to have slightly more, which is a little easier to deal with by using the buffer (I use the one from seachem)

On 6/1/2024 at 7:19 PM, aminowrimo said:

What do you think is a reasonable buffer? At least 3, or better to have more like 5?

If your PH is say 6.8+ consistently, then I think you're stable. I think you'll be ok.  It's just a conscious note where you have to be alert and say.... Alright, this is my tank and this might not be for every species. There's a ton of fish that do well in that region, namely stuff like that you have and lots of cyprinid fish.

I try to keep mine 4+

GH = 2x KH, so that's 8-10 range.

[aminowrimo]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:20 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Mine tends to stick around 6.8-7.0

Kh for me is 40, I do have KH buffer if I need to add some.

GH for me is about 80-100.

I keep up on water changes and I try really hard to keep that in check. I absolutely do need to do better with regards to things like testing, but I do use KH/GH tests constantly when need be. The goal is to have enough KH to keep it stable.... Sometimes you might need to have slightly more, which is a little easier to deal with by using the buffer (I use the one from seachem)

Ok good to know; my GH is also super low but I'm not sure how much the tea color of my tank right now is contributing to that. I'll test again tomorrow. We used to have a stone in there in the first few weeks of the tank but it was really pushing pH up and we didn't know any better so got rid of it.

On 6/1/2024 at 10:20 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

If your PH is say 6.8+ consistently, then I think you're stable. I think you'll be ok.  It's just a conscious note where you have to be alert and say.... Alright, this is my tank and this might not be for every species. There's a ton of fish that do well in that region, namely stuff like that you have and lots of cyprinid fish.

 

Yeah I pretty much love the south american fish and gourami and such so it's actually perfect. 🙂 Thanks so much for your help!

Edited June 2 by aminowrimo

[aminowrimo]

I'm adding only 1-2 pieces of aragonite before testing again. So far the first two pieces don't seem to have had an effect, so I added another two pieces today and will test KH and GH again tomorrow.

The cardinal tetra I netted out last week for potential euthanasia must have been quite stressed: he started developing small snout chondromas. Very slowly, but it's interesting to see proof that this really is stress-based. I'll keep an eye and may euthanize before we leave. A neon tetra was found deceased on Monday for no reason I can ascertain but unfortunately had been mostly eaten. Thankfully, that one was from the new batch so possibly did not have NTD.

@ColuThe IAL helped Fonsi a bunch. Earlier this week I noticed the bump on his lower lip sieemed to be reducing. Now he looks good as new; except of course he keeps finding new ways to tear his caudal fin. Will keep an eye and possibly replace the stump.