Your cycling method and why you choose it

[Lennie]

I will never understand why someone would do a fish in cycle when it is obvious that it hurts the fish unless it is a must for emergency, or makes no sense to cycle if you will dump in so many medicine that will kill the cycle mostly anyway in a quarantine tank. So as a general term, fishless cycle for me.

In fact, if you wanna have more than one tank, you can easily keep an extra filter around running for a while in one of those tanksand start a new tank in one day directly. The patience required for cycling is usually valid for the first tank you are setting up, unless there is a specific situation that wouldn't help it. Like if you have a 5g and wanna start a 75g this may not work, or if you need a tank where maturing up matters in the new tank, like a reef tank or tank that will home grazers like otos, nerites, borneo loaches/hillstreams, etc.

 

If I had access to Dr Tims bottled ammonia, I would surely use it but I don't. If I use aquasoil, I install the filter directly in the tank and add handful established media and cycle it inside the tank. Otherwise, if I dont use any aquasoil that would leach ammonia constantly I would just pass an extra filter that has been running in a different tank, or cycle the new filters in a seperate container dosing fish food, bottled bacteria and yucky sponge squeezing.

Recently I started cycling a reef tank and I have not included live rocks and have no access to Dr Tim's ammonia. I dont like the idea of using fish food directly inside the tank, so I instead used raw shrimp I got from a super market and put it inside a purigen bag. Oh, it is smelly. But released 1ish mg/L ammonia in 2 days. It is a waiting game again. But a good one. I have TONS of stuff to learn meanwhile about saltwater and reef tanks. A great period to not rush anything and make indepth research while the tank is cycling and maturing.

 

-------------------------------------------

I personally think it is everybody's own due dilligence to search and learn how to take care of an animal. I learnt how to keep all my fish myself. This was also valid for all the tortoises, cats, dogs and hamster I adopted. I also taught myself how to take care of my pony and guinea pigs.  I am not better than anyone else reading this. Internet makes it easy, and we just need to learn how to reach good info and eliminate others.

Don't expect anyone to teach you how to take care of a live creature. Do your research and take your time. It took me 4 months to decide if I want to start a saltwater tank, and I have been in the freshwater side of the hobby for a very long time. I see people entering the store, asking the store guy if this this and this fish can live together, but all all together and add them into a fresh new tank. HORRIBLE.

Even so many hobbyists here cannot agree on one basic issue. How come we can expect one  person working at the store to be an answer to all our questions. 

I believe expecting some help regarding technical assistance and information or hearing from an experienced person working there nonstop with the fish might be useful. Useful to obtain another information. But not with the animals.

You are dedicating to spend X years of your life with an animal and deciding to take care of it at its best. You should do your best to learn how.

 

Edited February 19 by Lennie

[Lennie]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:41 PM, Sun.singh1991 said:

You’re correct about toxicity of ammonia being not an issue under low pH settings, but not all fish can live under low pH. I’m trying to explain that the nitrification process is accelerated at a higher pH because of the use of alkalinity.

I hear about this, but not sure how this works tho. I keep some of my GBR at 5.0-5.5 ph, basically no kh and 0-1 GH and never had issues with the cycle or ammonia reading or cycle crash ever.

Edited February 19 by Lennie

[Sun.singh1991]

On 2/19/2024 at 3:11 PM, Lennie said:

I hear about this, but not sure how this works tho. I keep some of my GBR at 5.0-5.5 ph, basically no kh and 0-1 GH and never had issues with the cycle or ammonia reading or cycle crash ever.

You’re very right. At that low of a pH the ammonia in your system is being protonated to ammonium very rapidly which is non-toxic to fish. So you wouldn’t need the traditional ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle. 

[Lennie]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:23 AM, Sun.singh1991 said:

You’re very right. At that low of a pH the ammonia in your system is being protonated to ammonium very rapidly which is non-toxic to fish. So you wouldn’t need the traditional ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle. 

No the cycle is there. I  moved their sponge to this tank from another, which was already cycled and running in another tank for a long time.

My test kit, Sera's ammonia/ammonium test kit, tests for both ammonia and ammonium as the name says it. I mentioned no ammonia/ammonia as a sign that the cycle has never crashed in this tank. Not to mention I moved the sponge here from a high gh ph kh tank. Also ammonium may be preferable in comparison to ammonia, but that does not make it harmless  and it is not non-toxic. It is just less harmful, but still harmful. You still need to have a cycle going on.

Edited February 19 by Lennie

[Sun.singh1991]

On 2/19/2024 at 4:29 PM, Lennie said:

No the cycle is there. I  moved their sponge to this tank from another, which was already cycled and running in another tank for a long time.

My test kit, Sera's ammonia/ammonium test kit, tests for both ammonia and ammonium as the name says it. I mentioned no ammonia/ammonia as a sign that the cycle has never crashed in this tank. Not to mention I moved the sponge here from a high gh ph kh tank. Also ammonium may be preferable in comparison to ammonia, but that does not make it harmless  and it is not non-toxic. It is just less harmful, but still harmful. You still need to have a cycle going on.

Nitrification is much slower at that low of a pH and ammonium does not damage cell tissues like ammonia because it can not cross animal cell membranes. If you have plants, perhaps they are up taking the ammonia/ammonium at a faster rate than your nitrifying bacteria can. Either way the system is successful for you. 🙂

 

 

[Whitecloud09]

On 2/19/2024 at 4:04 PM, Lennie said:

I will never understand why someone would do a fish in cycle when it is obvious that it hurts the fish unless it is a must for emergency, or makes no sense to cycle if you will dump in so many medicine that will kill the cycle mostly anyway in a quarantine tank. So as a general term, fishless cycle for me.

In fact, if you wanna have more than one tank, you can easily keep an extra filter around running for a while in one of those tanksand start a new tank in one day directly. The patience required for cycling is usually valid for the first tank you are setting up, unless there is a specific situation that wouldn't help it. Like if you have a 5g and wanna start a 75g this may not work, or if you need a tank where maturing up matters in the new tank, like a reef tank or tank that will home grazers like otos, nerites, borneo loaches/hillstreams, etc.

 

If I had access to Dr Tims bottled ammonia, I would surely use it but I don't. If I use aquasoil, I install the filter directly in the tank and add handful established media and cycle it inside the tank. Otherwise, if I dont use any aquasoil that would leach ammonia constantly I would just pass an extra filter that has been running in a different tank, or cycle the new filters in a seperate container dosing fish food, bottled bacteria and yucky sponge squeezing.

Recently I started cycling a reef tank and I have not included live rocks and have no access to Dr Tim's ammonia. I dont like the idea of using fish food directly inside the tank, so I instead used raw shrimp I got from a super market and put it inside a purigen bag. Oh, it is smelly. But released 1ish mg/L ammonia in 2 days. It is a waiting game again. But a good one. I have TONS of stuff to learn meanwhile about saltwater and reef tanks. A great period to not rush anything and make indepth research while the tank is cycling and maturing.

 

-------------------------------------------

I personally think it is everybody's own due dilligence to search and learn how to take care of an animal. I learnt how to keep all my fish myself. This was also valid for all the tortoises, cats, dogs and hamster I adopted. I also taught myself how to take care of my pony and guinea pigs.  I am not better than anyone else reading this. Internet makes it easy, and we just need to learn how to reach good info and eliminate others.

Don't expect anyone to teach you how to take care of a live creature. Do your research and take your time. It took me 4 months to decide if I want to start a saltwater tank, and I have been in the freshwater side of the hobby for a very long time. I see people entering the store, asking the store guy if this this and this fish can live together, but all all together and add them into a fresh new tank. HORRIBLE.

Even so many hobbyists here cannot agree on one basic issue. How come we can expect one  person working at the store to be an answer to all our questions. 

I believe expecting some help regarding technical assistance and information or hearing from an experienced person working there nonstop with the fish might be useful. Useful to obtain another information. But not with the animals.

You are dedicating to spend X years of your life with an animal and deciding to take care of it at its best. You should do your best to learn how.

 

Yes I agree, I am not mad at  the petsmart people but I have learned a lot from a friend of mine, and online like, this forum, google, several peoples opinions and so on, I feel that it comes down to what u have access and what u are confident in that actually works, if u have no access to pure ammonia shrimp is def your second option, fish food can cause problems sometimes….

[Sun.singh1991]

On 2/19/2024 at 5:05 PM, Bigdog99 said:

Yes I agree, I am not mad at  the petsmart people but I have learned a lot from a friend of mine, and online like, this forum, google, several peoples opinions and so on, I feel that it comes down to what u have access and what u are confident in that actually works, if u have no access to pure ammonia shrimp is def your second option, fish food can cause problems sometimes….

Well said my friend. We were all new at one point. 

[Lonkley]

I'll start by saying I did a fishless cycle with ammonia, plants, and fritz starting late November and stocking shrimp in middle January.  It's kind of a crazy process even when you know what to expect. To ask the majority of new aquarists to do so seems like setting them up for failure.  I daily dosed ammonia, and it would be gone in a few hours.  Nitrites would just hang around, and Nitrates would appear, but slowly to the point I was still dosing with easy green.  It took 4 dosing and 3 weeks to get a reliable cycle going (0/0/0 over multiple days).  Only reason I could dose fritz was it was only a 10 gallon, otherwise it would of been pretty cost prohibitive.  In the end, I have a cycle which is probably overkill for 15 neos and whatever infinite number of bladder snails I have. It wouldn't surprised if most of the bacteria colony has died back, but it doesn't really matter since it self regulates what needs to be there.

I also think fishless cycling gives a false sense of the tank being ready.  Exactly how many fish does it take to produce 2 or 4 ppm of ammonia?  It's still guess work. You put fish in and check the ammonia and you still could overstock for what your tank is ready for.   So you have new people who do everything "right" and it's still not ready.  Then they get confused or discouraged.

And don't get me started with people having a fetish for Prime. 

Previous to this tank I've always done fish in cycle. When I returned to the hobby 2 years ago, that's what I did, because that's what I did 30 years ago.  Worked fine.

It's amazing that somehow, in the early 80s, my dad was able to be sold a 26g tank.  Take it home, set it up, and a week later buy a few fish not knowing any better, with nothing but dechlorinater, and those fish lasted forever.  I honestly can't even remember if we tested the water.  We just did weekly changes and would add a couple fish at a time.  He then bought a 55g, probably because of MTS.  I mean really I was the one who took care of them, because of course, that's just what happens when your father buys a tank right?

There was no consideration as to fish type or size or whatever conditions. Fish that had no business being together. It was pre-internet so there was no fish police.  We had angels, and balas, and red tails sharks, plecos, gourmeis, tetras, corys, the 26 even had an oscar that got to about 5 inches before he somehow managed to jump out despite a glass lid.  Basically if it looked pretty we stocked it.   They grew huge and healthy off just brine shrimp and tetra flakes with an Undergravel Filter powered with airstones.  Plants were straight out, they weren't available commonly.  When I did start seeing them later they required really expensive bulbs, and I can only remember seeing Amazon Swords.  So it was all plastic plants, all the time.  Despite that I can't even remember having more than a death or two outside old age. 

By the time I was in my own place and buying my own tanks in the early 90s, HOBs came into fashion.  I think I ran a 55g  with a UGF.  

But to listen to people, fish in cycle is torture, yet there wouldn't be a hobby without it.  That's not to say that all the advances aren't awesome or there arent better ways to do thing.  Filters, lighting, a lot of it is just better.  Except heaters, they seem to be both better and worse.  But somehow it went from really simple to really complicated over a few decades.

I would say Cory's "Seasoned Tank" is probably the best way to go.  But it's not going to work for most new fishkeepers because most are going to the store and buying whatever is shoved in an aqueon kit and just want it to have fish now.  Then they either end up on facebook marketplace a year later, or people learn what they got themselves into and do better the next time around.

Anyway, I'm hoping there is a point somewhere in there.   Future tanks I would probably do the fishless route with plants and algae growth, pre-seeded sponge from my main tank.  I might consider adding a dose of bacteria with the fish.   Also, a few fish aren't going to produce that much waste.  Especially as the tank size gets larger and the proportion of ammonia to water gets smaller, which is also why its easier to get the biggest tank you can get.  

Oh, and if I really am worried about ammonia, I would just add Zeolite in the form of Ammonia-Carb into a temporary box filter with poly.  Box filters are seriously ignored today and I have no idea why.

Edited February 19 by Lonkley

[Whitecloud09]

On 2/19/2024 at 6:47 PM, Lonkley said:

I'll start by saying I did a fishless cycle with ammonia, plants, and fritz starting late November and stocking shrimp in middle January.  It's kind of a crazy process even when you know what to expect. To ask the majority of new aquarists to do so seems like setting them up for failure.  I daily dosed ammonia, and it would be gone in a few hours.  Nitrites would just hang around, and Nitrates would appear, but slowly to the point I was still dosing with easy green.  It took 4 dosing and 3 weeks to get a reliable cycle going (0/0/0 over multiple days).  Only reason I could dose fritz was it was only a 10 gallon, otherwise it would of been pretty cost prohibitive.  In the end, I have a cycle which is probably overkill for 15 neos and whatever infinite number of bladder snails I have. It wouldn't surprised if most of the bacteria colony has died back, but it doesn't really matter since it self regulates what needs to be there.

I also think fishless cycling gives a false sense of the tank being ready.  Exactly how many fish does it take to produce 2 or 4 ppm of ammonia?  It's still guess work. You put fish in and check the ammonia and you still could overstock for what your tank is ready for.   So you have new people who do everything "right" and it's still not ready.  Then they get confused or discouraged.

And don't get me started with people having a fetish for Prime. 

Previous to this tank I've always done fish in cycle. When I returned to the hobby 2 years ago, that's what I did, because that's what I did 30 years ago.  Worked fine.

It's amazing that somehow, in the early 80s, my dad was able to be sold a 26g tank.  Take it home, set it up, and a week later buy a few fish not knowing any better, with nothing but dechlorinater, and those fish lasted forever.  I honestly can't even remember if we tested the water.  We just did weekly changes and would add a couple fish at a time.  He then bought a 55g, probably because of MTS.  I mean really I was the one who took care of them, because of course, that's just what happens when your father buys a tank right?

There was no consideration as to fish type or size or whatever conditions. Fish that had no business being together. It was pre-internet so there was no fish police.  We had angels, and balas, and red tails sharks, plecos, gourmeis, tetras, corys, the 26 even had an oscar that got to about 5 inches before he somehow managed to jump out despite a glass lid.  Basically if it looked pretty we stocked it.   They grew huge and healthy off just brine shrimp and tetra flakes with an Undergravel Filter powered with airstones.  Plants were straight out, they weren't available commonly.  When I did start seeing them later they required really expensive bulbs, and I can only remember seeing Amazon Swords.  So it was all plastic plants, all the time.  Despite that I can't even remember having more than a death or two outside old age. 

By the time I was in my own place and buying my own tanks in the early 90s, HOBs came into fashion.  I think I ran a 55g  with a UGF.  

But to listen to people, fish in cycle is torture, yet there wouldn't be a hobby without it.  That's not to say that all the advances aren't awesome or there arent better ways to do thing.  Filters, lighting, a lot of it is just better.  Except heaters, they seem to be both better and worse.  But somehow it went from really simple to really complicated over a few decades.

I would say Cory's "Seasoned Tank" is probably the best way to go.  But it's not going to work for most new fishkeepers because most are going to the store and buying whatever is shoved in an aqueon kit and just want it to have fish now.  Then they either end up on facebook marketplace a year later, or people learn what they got themselves into and do better the next time around.

Anyway, I'm hoping there is a point somewhere in there.   Future tanks I would probably do the fishless route with plants and algae growth, pre-seeded sponge from my main tank.  I might consider adding a dose of bacteria with the fish.   Also, a few fish aren't going to produce that much waste.  Especially as the tank size gets larger and the proportion of ammonia to water gets smaller, which is also why its easier to get the biggest tank you can get.  

You are right, I think that a fish in cycle is the way to learn….because most of us start with that because we do not usually understand the “fishless cycle with ammonia” or whatever you want to call it, with that said, fishless cycle has pros and some cons but don’t get me started on the fish in cycle when beginners do it especially lol.But is happens! 

[Galabar]

On 2/19/2024 at 3:47 PM, Lonkley said:

...  I daily dosed ammonia, and it would be gone in a few hours.  Nitrites would just hang around, ...  It took 4 dosing and 3 weeks to get a reliable cycle going (0/0/0 over multiple days). ...

It sounds like you would have been good with a single dose of ammonia.  It does take nitrite a while to clear out (several weeks), which is what you experienced.  You would have probably been fine with the single dose of ammonia and waiting for the nitrite to reach 0.

If you are going fishless cycle in the future, just dose ammonia, wait for the nitrites to hit zero, and then add plants and livestock.  Keep it simple.

I know it is so temping to add plants, ..., to add fish.  I feel the same way (we probably all do).  However, with just a few weeks of patience, life gets a lot easier.

Edited February 20 by Galabar

[Lonkley]

On 2/19/2024 at 4:33 PM, Galabar said:

It sounds like you would have been good with a single dose of ammonia. It does take nitrite a while to clear out (several weeks), which is what you experienced. You would have probably been fine with the single dose of ammonia and waiting for the nitrite to reach 0

I think of the bacteria as a pet that needs to be fed. I wasn't sure how long it could go so I kept feeding it.  I didn't mention I did a couple water changes to stop nitrite climb. And like I said I saw nitrates so I knew I had some growing.

Plants went in a couple weeks earlier than dosing. I was waiting to get my co-op order after deciding which way to take filtration. Other than confusing ammonia readings I don't see why not plant first.

It  worked well in the end. It passed diatoms to green algae before stocking. From purchase to fish was 2 months because I wasn't in a rush. The shrimp seem happy. I know I lost a couple but I've also picked up at least 3 babies, so likely more. Those guys do not like traveling home well and with a new tank I was expecting a couple would stress out and not make it. Especially since I think my lfg gets them out of country.

 

Edited February 20 by Lonkley

[Sun.singh1991]

On 2/19/2024 at 5:47 PM, Lonkley said:

I'll start by saying I did a fishless cycle with ammonia, plants, and fritz starting late November and stocking shrimp in middle January.  It's kind of a crazy process even when you know what to expect. To ask the majority of new aquarists to do so seems like setting them up for failure.  I daily dosed ammonia, and it would be gone in a few hours.  Nitrites would just hang around, and Nitrates would appear, but slowly to the point I was still dosing with easy green.  It took 4 dosing and 3 weeks to get a reliable cycle going (0/0/0 over multiple days).  Only reason I could dose fritz was it was only a 10 gallon, otherwise it would of been pretty cost prohibitive.  In the end, I have a cycle which is probably overkill for 15 neos and whatever infinite number of bladder snails I have. It wouldn't surprised if most of the bacteria colony has died back, but it doesn't really matter since it self regulates what needs to be there.

I also think fishless cycling gives a false sense of the tank being ready.  Exactly how many fish does it take to produce 2 or 4 ppm of ammonia?  It's still guess work. You put fish in and check the ammonia and you still could overstock for what your tank is ready for.   So you have new people who do everything "right" and it's still not ready.  Then they get confused or discouraged.

And don't get me started with people having a fetish for Prime. 

Previous to this tank I've always done fish in cycle. When I returned to the hobby 2 years ago, that's what I did, because that's what I did 30 years ago.  Worked fine.

It's amazing that somehow, in the early 80s, my dad was able to be sold a 26g tank.  Take it home, set it up, and a week later buy a few fish not knowing any better, with nothing but dechlorinater, and those fish lasted forever.  I honestly can't even remember if we tested the water.  We just did weekly changes and would add a couple fish at a time.  He then bought a 55g, probably because of MTS.  I mean really I was the one who took care of them, because of course, that's just what happens when your father buys a tank right?

There was no consideration as to fish type or size or whatever conditions. Fish that had no business being together. It was pre-internet so there was no fish police.  We had angels, and balas, and red tails sharks, plecos, gourmeis, tetras, corys, the 26 even had an oscar that got to about 5 inches before he somehow managed to jump out despite a glass lid.  Basically if it looked pretty we stocked it.   They grew huge and healthy off just brine shrimp and tetra flakes with an Undergravel Filter powered with airstones.  Plants were straight out, they weren't available commonly.  When I did start seeing them later they required really expensive bulbs, and I can only remember seeing Amazon Swords.  So it was all plastic plants, all the time.  Despite that I can't even remember having more than a death or two outside old age. 

By the time I was in my own place and buying my own tanks in the early 90s, HOBs came into fashion.  I think I ran a 55g  with a UGF.  

But to listen to people, fish in cycle is torture, yet there wouldn't be a hobby without it.  That's not to say that all the advances aren't awesome or there arent better ways to do thing.  Filters, lighting, a lot of it is just better.  Except heaters, they seem to be both better and worse.  But somehow it went from really simple to really complicated over a few decades.

I would say Cory's "Seasoned Tank" is probably the best way to go.  But it's not going to work for most new fishkeepers because most are going to the store and buying whatever is shoved in an aqueon kit and just want it to have fish now.  Then they either end up on facebook marketplace a year later, or people learn what they got themselves into and do better the next time around.

Anyway, I'm hoping there is a point somewhere in there.   Future tanks I would probably do the fishless route with plants and algae growth, pre-seeded sponge from my main tank.  I might consider adding a dose of bacteria with the fish.   Also, a few fish aren't going to produce that much waste.  Especially as the tank size gets larger and the proportion of ammonia to water gets smaller, which is also why its easier to get the biggest tank you can get.  

Oh, and if I really am worried about ammonia, I would just add Zeolite in the form of Ammonia-Carb into a temporary box filter with poly.  Box filters are seriously ignored today and I have no idea why.

I second the box filter, pack it up with some Zeolite and poly and it’ll do wonders!

[Galabar]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:20 PM, Lonkley said:

I think of the bacteria as a pet that needs to be fed. I wasn't sure how long it could go so I kept feeding it.  ...

From what I've read, nitrifying bacteria can go a long time without food.  So, once that nitrite is being consumed, the ammonia consuming bacteria will jump into action when more ammonia is added (when you add fish).

For my most recent tank, I dosed ammonia at the beginning, waited for nitrite to reach zero, and added plants and (a small number of) fish.  I didn't notice an ammonia or nitrite spike when testing for a couple of days afterwards.

Here's an interesting, simple experiment:

Quote

So it appears that even after a month of no 'feeding' - this rock can still process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/experiment-does-nitrifying-bacteria-survive-a-month-without-ammonia-or-other-supplementation.890358/

Edited February 20 by Galabar

[face]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:54 PM, Galabar said:

From what I've read, nitrifying bacteria can go a long time without food.  So, once that nitrite is being consumed, the ammonia consuming bacteria will jump into action when more ammonia is added (when you add fish).

For my most recent tank, I dosed ammonia at the beginning, waited for nitrite to reach zero, and added plants and (a small number of) fish.  I didn't notice an ammonia or nitrite spike when testing for a couple of days afterwards.

Here's an interesting, simple experiment:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/experiment-does-nitrifying-bacteria-survive-a-month-without-ammonia-or-other-supplementation.890358/

You have to remember that when bacteria dies it releases ammonia so there’s a bit of a feedback loop also the maximum amount they can eat is way higher than what the need to survive so they can go a very long time 

I also just want to say this was an interesting read everyone thanks all🙂

[Tlindsey]

Many years ago I personally would use feeder goldfish for freshwater and damsels for saltwater setups. Now that I have a sump pick out sponge, or other biomedia to jump start cycle. I won't sacrifice live fish anymore. 

[Whitecloud09]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:54 PM, Galabar said:

From what I've read, nitrifying bacteria can go a long time without food.  So, once that nitrite is being consumed, the ammonia consuming bacteria will jump into action when more ammonia is added (when you add fish).

For my most recent tank, I dosed ammonia at the beginning, waited for nitrite to reach zero, and added plants and (a small number of) fish.  I didn't notice an ammonia or nitrite spike when testing for a couple of days afterwards.

Here's an interesting, simple experiment:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/experiment-does-nitrifying-bacteria-survive-a-month-without-ammonia-or-other-supplementation.890358/

I agree, the bacteria is really not a fish and can go for a bit without food, I just dozed ammonia to 2 ppm maybe….4 times in almost 2 and a half months so I agree. 

On 2/20/2024 at 4:57 AM, face said:

You have to remember that when bacteria dies it releases ammonia so there’s a bit of a feedback loop also the maximum amount they can eat is way higher than what the need to survive so they can go a very long time 

I also just want to say this was an interesting read everyone thanks all🙂

Yes, u still need to feed or u will have some problems. Ammonia goes to zero very quickly but nitrite seems to take a LONG LONG time for it to go down, I just dozed after both were 0 and then added ammonia and repeated every couple days after they went to 0 and did it until they went down within 24 hours, thanks for all the help everyone on my post btw about the cycle. Mainly @Galabar, @Tony s, and others! This was a good topic!

[DallasCowboys16]

When I setup a new tank I usually do the following:

Plant it out heavily, fertilize and let it grow out for about 2-4 weeks, add a few fish, wait a week or two, add a few fish, wait a week or two, and continue this until it is completely stocked.

I’ve never had a single issue cycling tanks like this. In fact, I can’t even remember losing a fish in the process. Usually I am bringing over at least a few plants and hardscape from already established tanks which serves to kickstart the bacteria colony and the heavy plant load certainly helps to promote stability IMO.

Fishless cycles seem to be so convoluted and confusing to beginners that I almost always saw it do more harm than good when I worked in a store. As a result, we promoted a slow and cautious fish in cycling method.

Now, if you were in a situation where all of the stock had to be added in one shot for whatever reason, I can see the appeal of fishless cycling. Otherwise, I see no reason to feed a tank with liquid ammonia.

[Whitecloud09]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:20 AM, DallasCowboys16 said:

When I setup a new tank I usually do the following:

Plant it out heavily, fertilize and let it grow out for about 2-4 weeks, add a few fish, wait a week or two, add a few fish, wait a week or two, and continue this until it is completely stocked.

I’ve never had a single issue cycling tanks like this. In fact, I can’t even remember losing a fish in the process. Usually I am bringing over at least a few plants and hardscape from already established tanks which serves to kickstart the bacteria colony and the heavy plant load certainly helps to promote stability IMO.

Fishless cycles seem to be so convoluted and confusing to beginners that I almost always saw it do more harm than good when I worked in a store. As a result, we promoted a slow and cautious fish in cycling method.

Now, if you were in a situation where all of the stock had to be added in one shot for whatever reason, I can see the appeal of fishless cycling. Otherwise, I see no reason to feed a tank with liquid ammonia.

Yes, that is a what I had to do, I added 6 fish (schooling so I had to do it) and everything is going great! Not a heavily planted tank but it is good enough, I did the fishless cycle method and had to wait almost 2 and a half months! But I got WCMMs so they are hardy anways! @DallasCowboys16

[DallasCowboys16]

On 2/20/2024 at 7:27 AM, Bigdog99 said:

Yes, that is a what I had to do, I added 6 fish (schooling so I had to do it) and everything is going great! Not a heavily planted tank but it is good enough, I did the fishless cycle method and had to wait almost 2 and a half months! But I got WCMMs so they are hardy anways! @DallasCowboys16

When teaching beginners, I think we need to be pragmatic when discussing cycling.

Am I really going to try and drop an entire lesson on them about the nitrogen cycle, nitrifying bacteria, testing, liquid ammonia dosing, etc when they just walked into my store and expect them to absorb it + do their own research when they get home? I can try (trust me, I have before), but most of the time it just leaves them confused, the information won’t be absorbed, and I’ve just wasted 45 minutes.

In a perfect world, everyone could learn to fishless cycle, but that just isn’t in the cards for most beginners.

Sometimes pursuit of an unachievable “best” leaves us discarding a realistic “better” when teaching a new fish keeper about cycling a tank.

I say give ‘em a high level talk about what the nitrogen cycle is and why that means the fish need to be added slowly in small batches. 90% of the time, they don’t have problems. That 10% will just need extra coaching.

Edited February 20 by DallasCowboys16

[NOLANANO]

On 2/20/2024 at 8:35 AM, DallasCowboys16 said:

When teaching beginners, I think we need to be pragmatic when discussing cycling.

I feel like 75% of being an adult is managing expectations. This is no different in the fish hobby. After reading this thread, if I ever have to cycle a tank again I will change my ways and do a fishless cycle. BUT that's coming from a person that has been in the hobby for several years and has a high enough base knowledge to fall back on.

When dealing with beginners (which I pretty much was when I cycled my tank), you have to have some leeway and realize that they won't be perfect and sometimes good is good enough. Like I said, when I researched it several years ago, I didn't see anything about liquid ammonia. Maybe that was my fault for not asking google the right questions but I only found the fish in cycle and the ghost feeding method. Based on what I knew, the ghost feeding method seemed vague and daunting. I had also used the fish in method when I had fish in college a decade earlier so I knew how to do it and that it would work.

I dislike when people try this hobby and bail quickly because either its harder than they expected or their fish die quickly (both are usually due to making a bunch of avoidable mistakes).  I also don't like when someone starts looking into it and just feels an information overload and bails before they start because they can't figure out where step 1 is.  (FYI, I think ACO's Youtube does a great job of breaking things down into digestible pieces.) I have had friends try the hobby and it not be for them which is totally fine but whenever I have a friend get a tank, I do my very best to guide them in a manner that is easiest for them and teach them along the way. If people are constantly told that everything they are doing is wrong then they will just quit. You have to help them avoid the big issues like buying an Oscar for their 20 gallon and let things like a fish in cycle go despite knowing there is a better way. instead of saying DONT DO THAT! show them how to test their water and explain why they need daily water changes until the cycle completes.

Thats also why I love this board. Everyone here helps in a positive manner. No one tells anyone else they are dumb, we all just try to fix the issue and educate along the way. Other fish forums aren't like this at all and I think they chase a lot of potential fish hobbyists away by gatekeeping a bit.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited February 20 by NOLANANO

[Galabar]

Just a note that the title of the post is "Your cycling method and why you choose it".

Although, I do think it's an interesting discussion as to what we should tell beginners.  I really liked this video:

 

[face]

On 2/20/2024 at 11:03 AM, Galabar said:

Just a note that the title of the post is "Your cycling method and why you choose it".

Although, I do think it's an interesting discussion as to what we should tell beginners.  I really liked this video:

 

I completely don’t mind where this is going I just want to hear what people thought were because I for quite a few years kind of stepped away from the hobby sort of and I’ve been reading a lot on salt water where the idea of a cycle is a little different so was just curious to what people opinion were I still quite like the ghost feeding method apparently I’m in the minority but it’s been really interesting so far and Im more than happy to let the discussion go wherever as long as it’s civil.

Edited February 20 by face

[Whitecloud09]

On 2/20/2024 at 9:35 AM, DallasCowboys16 said:

When teaching beginners, I think we need to be pragmatic when discussing cycling.

Am I really going to try and drop an entire lesson on them about the nitrogen cycle, nitrifying bacteria, testing, liquid ammonia dosing, etc when they just walked into my store and expect them to absorb it + do their own research when they get home? I can try (trust me, I have before), but most of the time it just leaves them confused, the information won’t be absorbed, and I’ve just wasted 45 minutes.

In a perfect world, everyone could learn to fishless cycle, but that just isn’t in the cards for most beginners.

Sometimes pursuit of an unachievable “best” leaves us discarding a realistic “better” when teaching a new fish keeper about cycling a tank.

I say give ‘em a high level talk about what the nitrogen cycle is and why that means the fish need to be added slowly in small batches. 90% of the time, they don’t have problems. That 10% will just need extra coaching.

Yes, there is pros and cons for both, beginners can pick either one, if they do the fish in way, that does not mean everything will be HORRIBLE, it is just not the BEST way but it is a way that most beginners do maybe because their friend did it and showed them or they just thought they would get a fish tank one day and it didn’t go well,  I am not trying to switch topics but that is my last note on this topic and lots of reply’s and maybe if a beginner sees this or searches on google and this topic shows up they will get something out of it. Good idea of a topic @face!