About setting up a brackish tank

[Lennie]

Hello everyone.

I have been considering a brackish tank for a while. My friend wanted to gift me a figure 8 puffer. So I am planning to setup a tank

But I need some help while setting up the ideal tank.

First things first, I see online that for brackish tanks, we should use Marine salt/reef salt, but not standard aquarium salt due to extra minerals it has. I already use gh+ in my tanks and I have montmorillonite clay powder for gh and minerals. Can I just use regular aquarium salt I have and dose gh+ and/or montmorillonite clay for minerals instead of buying marine salt?

I know you two have brackish tank experience so I would appreciate some help @Biotope Biologist @Ninjoma

 

Secondly, I see lots of people keeping figure 8 puffer with bumblebee gobies successfully. Also I have seen a few mentioning mollies. Any care tips, diet and tankmate tips are welcomed if you’d like to share any. @mountaintoppufferkeeper @Beardedbillygoat1975 

Also based on what I see, most people only keep one figure 8 puffer rather than mixing many, right? I have seen a couple people mentioning more of a group but majority was keeping only one

Also is frozen food bought from market is safe to feed for parasite issues? 
 

Lastly Ive seen a few plants being used in brackish tanks. To my understanding figure 8 and bumblebee gobies are on the lower end of the brackish so shouldn’t be a huge problem but probably still undesired for many plants.

What plants work in your experience?

 

One more thing that confused me at lfs. Some seem to have darker bellies. Does that refer to anything? I have come across a few darker colored darker belly ones online too but normally the bellies are white. Like this:

thanks everyone

 

Edited January 28 by Lennie

[Biotope Biologist]

You will still want to use marine salt. Marine salt contains a mixture of trace elements along with salt and there really is no substitute.

 

It depends on what level of brackish water you intend to go. Bumblebee gobies are low level brackish at a maximum of 1.005 I believe which is a threshold that allows a couple plants such as java moss, sedge, and mangrove. This salinity is the minimum I would keep them at. Mollies are a maybe. They are quite good dither fish for fin nipping fish but may have to be separated if the puffer is a menace.

 

I intended to keep my figure 8 mid-brackish. About 1.008-1.015 as this is the salinity you tend to encounter in river deltas and opens you to more intertidal species. Some soft corals, anemones, gobies, damselfish, and crustacean enjoy this environment. No plants in this environment except the mangrove so your greenery would be solely macroalgae.

 

For low-end brackish id setup the tank more like a freshwater tank just add marine salt and be aware most plants will melt in these conditions. For mid to high brackish setup is more akin to a saltwater tank.

 

Diet is a mix of crustacean preferably in the shell and worms.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 1/28/2024 at 2:01 AM, Lennie said:

Hello everyone.

I have been considering a brackish tank for a while. My friend wanted to gift me a figure 8 puffer. So I am planning to setup a tank

But I need some help while setting up the ideal tank.

First things first, I see online that for brackish tanks, we should use Marine salt/reef salt, but not standard aquarium salt due to extra minerals it has. I already use gh+ in my tanks and I have montmorillonite clay powder for gh and minerals. Can I just use regular aquarium salt I have and dose gh+ and/or montmorillonite clay for minerals instead of buying marine salt?

I know you two have brackish tank experience so I would appreciate some help @Biotope Biologist @Ninjoma

 

Secondly, I see lots of people keeping figure 8 puffer with bumblebee gobies successfully. Also I have seen a few mentioning mollies. Any care tips, diet and tankmate tips are welcomed if you’d like to share any. @mountaintoppufferkeeper @Beardedbillygoat1975 

Also based on what I see, most people only keep one figure 8 puffer rather than mixing many, right? I have seen a couple people mentioning more of a group but majority was keeping only one

Also is frozen food bought from market is safe to feed for parasite issues? 
 

Lastly Ive seen a few plants being used in brackish tanks. To my understanding figure 8 and bumblebee gobies are on the lower end of the brackish so shouldn’t be a huge problem but probably still undesired for many plants.

What plants work in your experience?

 

One more thing that confused me at lfs. Some seem to have darker bellies. Does that refer to anything? I have come across a few darker colored darker belly ones online too but normally the bellies are white. Like this:

thanks everyone

 

I have not yet taken the brackish step yet but @Biotope Biologist may have just convinced me:).

@Lennie just based on the puffers I keep and success vs food results with tankmates, i would look more to mollies or more figure 8s. I have always had more success with midwater speed and agility than bottom dwelling.

If i was doing brackish i think id try my hand at nerite snail ranching as a food and just the normal food earthworms, ramshorns, pond snails etc. I would be a little more careful on the amount until I figured out how long the food could go in the salinity i ran my brackish puffer at. 

I havent found any research on differences on belly color in figure 8s.

In Pao puffers often the male has a darker pattern or base color on the belly. Most puffers ive kept change intensity and pattern based off mood etc...a darker belly could just be how that puffer decided to show that day

[Lennie]

Thank you guys @Biotope Biologist @mountaintoppufferkeeper . I ordered the salinity device and gonna buy marine or reef salt too

 

I spent some time reading many topics on the puffer forum. People mentioned having success of keeping their figure 8 with bumblebee gobies without any issues. So I wanted to give it a try .

That being said, I went to my Lfs and got a group of 6 bumblebee gobies today, but I had no clue there were so many different varieties sold as “bumblebee goby”.

Now I am very confused if the ones I got are freshwater or brackish, or suitable for both. It is hard to name the exact species so I cant be sure. Also I have seen some stuff like all bumblebee gobies will do fine in brackish anyway but Im not sure. Figure 8 is on the lower end of the brackish anyway. On puffer fish forum, it is said that the longevity was the best at 1.005 salinity for figure 8 with 18 years of a lifespan!

can anybody tell what the gobies I got are exactly? I suspect either freshwater goby b. xanthomelas or sabanus. But it can also be something else, there is so many! This is important to figure out if I should keep them in a brackish tank or move them to a freshwater tank. @DansFish I see you had freshwater bumblebee gobies, so maybe you may have an opinion?

The pics below:

Edited January 28 by Lennie

[Ninjoma]

I agree with others that marine salt should be used rather than aquarium salt. 

For plants I've had success with tiger lotus, hygrophila siamensis 53b, narrow leaf ludwigia and swords. Bolbitas fern also seems to do okay (at worst it dies very slowly) . I'm still experimenting with micro sword. 

Buce, anubias and crypts I have tried and they did not work for me. 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@Lennie im curious on the brackialsh and goby SME answers. 

For the identification this publication lists more about gobies than I knew prior to finding it today. It does cover many brachygobius species taxonomy starting l at page 51

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=A+revision+of+the+gobiid+fish+genus+Mugilogobius+(Teleostei%3A+Gobioidei)%2C+and+its+systematic+placement&btnG=

This field study only found xanthomelas in pure freshwater (Easiest way to search nih study is save as pdf and find by scientific name)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9169113/

Salinity is a cool variable. Some studies note variances in salinity can change the digestive processes and functions in some species. That will be a fun project to hear about. 

[Ninjoma]

On 1/28/2024 at 7:32 AM, Lennie said:

can anybody tell what the gobies I got are exactly?

These do look a lot like the true freshwater gobies that Dan's and aquatic arts sell, not sure if they are though. They also do not look like the brackish ones that I have. 

[Lennie]

On 1/28/2024 at 9:18 PM, Ninjoma said:

These do look a lot like the true freshwater gobies that Dan's and aquatic arts sell, not sure if they are though. They also do not look like the brackish ones that I have. 

That’s actually when I figured out while googling more to read about experiences too! I saw both of their pics and Im like.. waait a minute. Freshwater?? That being said it is said to be very rare in the hobby. And there seem to be so many bumblebees amd very hard to differentiate. I also saw these two and both but mostly the second one, sabanus, also looks like mine. Your bumblebee also looks great 

https://www.aquariumglaser.de/en/tag/bumblebee-goby/ 

Also found this

https://tanninaquatics.com/blogs/the-tint-1/to-bee-or-not-to-bee-the-surprising-bumblebee-goby

[Lennie]

This looks very much like mine I guess @Ninjoma, i dont really know :,) “Brachygobius Ocelot”

 

 

[Biotope Biologist]

There isn’t much publications on how to accurately differentiate. There may be dorsal ray counts or some other but for right now we can use typical patterns. 
 

Your gobies have 3 lateral bars rather than 4. Which means you most likely have B. doriae or B. sabanus the most commonly traded bumblebee goby. 

Both of which are freshwater fish that can be found in low-end brackish waters in the mangrove swamps of the upper reaches of the tidal flats and river. I believe that the whole genus is capable of low end salt tolerance but some are only found in freshwater.
 

Either way I remember reading that their salt tolerance is low at a maximum of 1.005. 
 

Good luck! Update us with pics of the puffers! Personally I have decided to wait to make an intertidal tank. I want to only have 1 display tank at a time to really appreciate and enjoy 1 biotope at a time. 

[Lennie]

On 1/29/2024 at 5:25 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

There isn’t much publications on how to accurately differentiate. There may be dorsal ray counts or some other but for right now we can use typical patterns. 
 

Your gobies have 3 lateral bars rather than 4. Which means you most likely have B. doriae or B. sabanus the most commonly traded bumblebee goby. 

Both of which are freshwater fish that can be found in low-end brackish waters in the mangrove swamps of the upper reaches of the tidal flats and river. I believe that the whole genus is capable of low end salt tolerance but some are only found in freshwater.
 

Either way I remember reading that their salt tolerance is low at a maximum of 1.005. 
 

Good luck! Update us with pics of the puffers! Personally I have decided to wait to make an intertidal tank. I want to only have 1 display tank at a time to really appreciate and enjoy 1 biotope at a time. 

Thanks a lot. I have been doing lots of reading and creating posts around but couldnt find any answer really. It was painful and I didnt want to risk putting my fish into risk for nothing by introducing a pure freshwater species to brackish. They are adorable. They must be starved at lfs, you should see them attacking white worms as big as themselves I put for the f8! 

Today I am ordering marine salt or reef salt as you recommended. How much salt should I order, I wonder. I currently keep them at 50x40x25/50 liters but I may soon take down my 50x50x50cm/125 liter tank which aquasoil  and plants already gone bad and I basically have only one f betta and L199 there so I can easily move them to another tank. I read something like 6gr of salt per liter for 1.005 approximately. I bought me a hydrometer anyway but I dont wanna go buy a huge box of 10kgs of salt if it will be a waste.

f8 puffers seem to enjoy lower end brackish too. I read a lot of topics and guides in the puffer forum, and I guess 1.005 is the best choice, someone even kept his for 18 years with 1.005! I may start with 1.003 or so and increase gradually, I cant be sure if they have been kept in brackish or full freshwater until now. I directly bought the fish after they arrive to the lfs to lessen any potential further damage, as they are kept in crowded tanks and may hurt each other. Basically none had perfect tails, all had bites and stuff.

Everyone seem to have great experience with bumblebee-f8 puffer combination. Mollies seem to lean on a good experience too overall, but some people started having issues after ages from what I understand. I have never tried molly before, and I kinda want some more tankmates for my f8 to not get bored.

I loved this guide and many other f8 related experiences in the puffer forum.

https://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/puffers-in-focus/fig8/ 

Edited January 29 by Lennie

[Biotope Biologist]

Fish in brackish environments possess remarkable features in their gills that allows them to change their gill function sometimes as quickly as 30 minutes!

So you shouldn’t shock them either way but if you have plants it’s best to add salt gradually. They don’t adapt as quickly as fish. 
 

As for marine salt 1.005 is not alot of salt by volume but also salt doesn’t expire so however much you want to buy at the time is the correct answer.

 

There are some new scientific articles that suggest that quite a few species of brackish puffers can actually be found in full marine and that their gill structure seems to be able to change to look more like their reef inhabiting cousins. Although I believe the attempts to do this in captivity have been relatively unsuccessful. Unsure as to why that is. Fascinating stuff regardless.

[govsfabshop]

I run the instant ocean salt in my brackish tank, have also tried the seachem brackish salt and really saw no difference in the fish or enviroment other than the big bag of instant ocean is cheaper and the granuals must finer. With brackish a little salt will go a long way and a bag will last quite some time

I've tried java fern in mine, its alive but doesnt do much(doesnt do much in my fresh tanks either though) have recently tried val as well, but the puffer seemed to knock it lose or break it up chasing food, whats left looks pretty good, i'll probably try it again here as it grows like a weed in my 40 gallon fresh. 

 

As for the belly color, they change (my ceylon puffer his whole body will change at times) Mine is normally white belly if he's happy and content, if he's stressed or your not giving him attention it'll turn dark, mines truly a wet pet, i can go down and start having him chase my finger across the glass and he almost smiles and his belly will go back to white. I had to drain the tank way down to move it a few months back to lay flooring and he nearly turned completely black from the stress, started filling the tank back up and he loves darting around in the water coming in and came right back to normal color, first thing in the morning when the lights come on he's almost completely yellow and white until he gets moving around then his black comes out, really cool fish to keep! My ceylon loves ramshorn snails, clams, mussels, silver sides, blood worms shrimp and tilapia!

 

Don't be afraid or overthink a brackish setup! I stressed myself out like crazy at first,(especially being it was kind of an emergency relocate from my father in law there was a matter of days to get the tank setup) but it reallly isnt anymore complicated than fresh water, just have a good salinity meter and add the salt slowly.

 

Edited January 29 by govsfabshop

[Lennie]

On 1/29/2024 at 7:50 PM, govsfabshop said:

I run the instant ocean salt in my brackish tank, have also tried the seachem brackish salt and really saw no difference in the fish or enviroment other than the big bag of instant ocean is cheaper and the granuals must finer. With brackish a little salt will go a long way and a bag will last quite some time

I've tried java fern in mine, its alive but doesnt do much(doesnt do much in my fresh tanks either though) have recently tried val as well, but the puffer seemed to knock it lose or break it up chasing food, whats left looks pretty good, i'll probably try it again here as it grows like a weed in my 40 gallon fresh. 

 

As for the belly color, they change (my ceylon puffer his whole body will change at times) Mine is normally white belly if he's happy and content, if he's stressed or your not giving him attention it'll turn dark, mines truly a wet pet, i can go down and start having him chase my finger across the glass and he almost smiles and his belly will go back to white. I had to drain the tank way down to move it a few months back to lay flooring and he nearly turned completely black from the stress, started filling the tank back up and he loves darting around in the water coming in and came right back to normal color, first thing in the morning when the lights come on he's almost completely yellow and white until he gets moving around then his black comes out, really cool fish to keep! My ceylon loves ramshorn snails, clams, mussels, silver sides, blood worms shrimp and tilapia!

 

Don't be afraid or overthink a brackish setup! I stressed myself out like crazy at first,(especially being it was kind of an emergency relocate from my father in law there was a matter of days to get the tank setup) but it reallly isnt anymore complicated than fresh water, just have a good salinity meter and add the salt slowly.

 

Absolutely adorable. Does it have a name? Looks like an adorable water puppy. 

Your experience about the graying seems to match with what Ive read on puffer forum too. It explains why some were showing graying/dark colors. Kept in crowded group, transported all the way to here, being in undesired tank conditions at the store... So yea. Probably a good home would also help them reach their actual colors

Thanks for the comforting words about my brackish tank journey.

Wish you and your lil friend a great life together

On 1/29/2024 at 6:18 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Fish in brackish environments possess remarkable features in their gills that allows them to change their gill function sometimes as quickly as 30 minutes!

So you shouldn’t shock them either way but if you have plants it’s best to add salt gradually. They don’t adapt as quickly as fish. 
 

As for marine salt 1.005 is not alot of salt by volume but also salt doesn’t expire so however much you want to buy at the time is the correct answer.

 

There are some new scientific articles that suggest that quite a few species of brackish puffers can actually be found in full marine and that their gill structure seems to be able to change to look more like their reef inhabiting cousins. Although I believe the attempts to do this in captivity have been relatively unsuccessful. Unsure as to why that is. Fascinating stuff regardless.

I guess we cant always replicate what they have in nature. These f8s also can be found in almost freshwater to my understanding, but in a tank environment, they seem to have much shorter lifespan and prone to diseases if kept in freshwater if I am not mistaken. So they advise keeping them at 1.005 for the best long term health.

 

I ordered this salt.

The thing is, the price comparison between 20kg one and 2x 10kg one was huge. So I got me 20kg box, it was the last one on stock with this low price. I can also use it for hatching artemia I suppose? The urge of making a nano reef tank with all this salt and hydrometer I have on hand!!! STOP ME

 

Edited January 30 by Lennie

[govsfabshop]

On 1/30/2024 at 3:21 AM, Lennie said:

Absolutely adorable. Does it have a name? Looks like an adorable water puppy. 

Your experience about the graying seems to match with what Ive read on puffer forum too. It explains why some were showing graying/dark colors. Kept in crowded group, transported all the way to here, being in undesired tank conditions at the store... So yea. Probably a good home would also help them reach their actual colors

Thanks for the comforting words about my brackish tank journey.

Wish you and your lil friend a great life together

 

 

He is Cheeto, (the puff!), His coloring in person is incredible and his personality is something else but man can he be mean, i havent tried anything with him since i've had him but in my father in laws tank he was fine for quite awhile than randomly went on a killing spree with his 7-8" silver dollars. He will take food right out of my hand, but will also go after my fingers, so i'm not sure if its worth trying any other fish in there! lol