About Albino Dantums

[Lennie]

Hello there.

Hope you are doing well.

 

Is there anyone who keeps Albino Dantums?

 

Some say they are P. scalare. Some say they are a mixture of both altums and p.scalare. Idk if it is possible all. Their background does not seem to be known well.

I find them pretty and I wonder if anyone keeps or at least has info on them. My friend just got a group of juveniles imported and I wanna learn more about them, but I haven't come across much online.

 

Like do they form pairs and breed well normally or do they have issues due to potentially being a mixture? Is there anything wrong with the genetic line? Is there any specific requirements other than dim lights due to being albinos? If I keep them with my platinum and black lace angel, would they potentially pair up (I guess they would, but still)

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20 by Lennie

[Fish Folk]

Here is a very nice write up on them, with a few videos embedded. They look beautiful!

[mynameisnobody]

That’s a beautiful fish

[Lennie]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:17 AM, Fish Folk said:

Here is a very nice write up on them, with a few videos embedded. They look beautiful!

Thank you! And yes that was one of the few things I managed to find as well.

I know someone who keeps a group of 15 IRL but they are still growing. The “color change” confused me in that article. I asked the friend and he said he has not observed anything like that in his batch at least to this day. He is one of the most experienced if not the most experienced person I know IRL. How can an albino fish develop a color later on suddenly? We are both kinda surprised to see “albino fish” developing colors and going dark. I have not heard anything like that myself before. How is that even possible?
 they explain it in the abovementioned albino dantum article as:

“I then started to think that something in the environment I provided had caused the melanin production to continue as in normal angelfish.  After a little online research I discovered that in albino animals, if a trigger caused the enzyme tyrosinase to be turned on, then this fish with two albino genes would have those genes not activated. So, there are environmental triggers that prevent the expression of albino, or if you want to look at it a different way, that allow the production of melanin even in the presence of homozygous albino.”

Is this true or even possible?@Biotope Biologist @Odd Duckwhat do you guys think?

If so, in nature albino creatures have such disadvantage. Why wouldn’t they use such biological capability to their advantage then? 
 

On 1/20/2024 at 8:55 AM, mynameisnobody said:

That’s a beautiful fish

Agreed. Im trying to convince myself not to spend to get me a group of 5-6 and expect pairing in the future 🙂

Edited January 20 by Lennie

[Fish Folk]

Here is an answer I read about colors and albinism. It is more with reference to reptiles, but still bears reading. I suspect that there may be a connection with carotenoids in their diet and lighting. Again, this is not my own write up, but quite interesting…

_______

”There are two major factors that would determine what colour an animal that is missing the pigment “melanin” in its skin, integument and eyes would be (and “missing melanin” is what an albino mammal is).

The first is “are there any other available pigments in the animal’s skin, integument and eyes?”

Although mammals only tend to have the two forms of melanin in their paint palette (eumelanin, which is black/grey, and phaeomelanin, which is rust/brown/yellow), other animal groups - reptiles, birds and fish - have other pigments in their paintboxes.

So an albino corn snake, who is missing melanin from his paint palette (also known as “amelanistic”), will have the red erythrin pigments and the yellow carotenoid pigments - resulting in a snake that is varying shades of red, orange, yellow and white.

If you have an albino budgie, who is only missing the melanin from her paint palette, she will be yellow - she has carotenoids. These are typically called “lutino”.

If you find a reptile or bird that is white with red or pink pupils, that usually means that it’s not just missing melanin - it’s also missing the other paints in the palette. And a “snow” corn snake is a good example of the second factor.

The second factor is “Does the integument have any structures in it that change how light passes through them that would alter the colour?”

Hair, feathers and scales are complicated in a lot of ways. One of those ways is the presence of things like iridophores and structural colouration. A “blue” budgie only has one pigment in his feathers - black/grey - but the shape of the internal structure of the feather barbs refracts light in such a way as to make it appear blue to us.

A “snow” corn snake is missing not just the black/grey melanin from his paint box, but also the red/orange erythrins (the carotenoids are actually derived from their diet and accumulate over time). But you can usually still see what pattern the animal would have had if it’d had normal pigmentation - as a sort of more-translucent and almost greenish-looking white. That’s because of the scale structures - they’re different on the borders where the black would have been (and the belly checkers) than they are on the ground colour or the saddle patterns.

I suspect that in the case of true albino zebra and other “marked” mammals, that’s what we’re seeing - structural differences in the hairs resulting in shadow patterning. In some cases, they may not actually be “amelanistic” - they might just be “hypomelanistic” - with a lot less black pigment on their palette (or it’s been diluted down a lot so it looks cream or grey instead of black!)

If you’ve got a mammal with no hair that’s albino - like a dolphin - it’s likely to be pink all over, because it doesn’t have integument to look white. Oddly enough, for corn snakes at least, the skin beneath the scales is also pigmented - so a scaleless albino (“amelanistic”) corn snake will still have striking red/orange markings.

And, of course, as … has already pointed out, many “albino” animals are actually “leucistic” animals - they have blue or grey eyes with black pupils, and the gene only changes the colour of their skin and integument, masking the normal colouration by covering it in white. These animals tend to be true, bright white where they have white areas (and you get “partial leucistics” that have areas of bright white colouring and areas of normal colouring, like “piebald” royal pythons.)”

[Biotope Biologist]

Albinos cannot just pick up melanin from their diet and environment. I think the ‘palette’ theory talked about above holds the most water for why an albino picked up colors.

 

true albinos are devoid of pigment. And usually comes with a host of genetic disorders. Thus breeders typically avoid true albinos and attempt leucistic and other variations of albinism instead.

 

Those angels are beautiful btw!

[Lennie]

On 1/20/2024 at 7:09 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Albinos cannot just pick up melanin from their diet and environment. I think the ‘palette’ theory talked about above holds the most water for why an albino picked up colors.

 

true albinos are devoid of pigment. And usually comes with a host of genetic disorders. Thus breeders typically avoid true albinos and attempt leucistic and other variations of albinism instead.

 

Those angels are beautiful btw!

Thank you for sharing the info
 

I agree that they are beautiful. I really wonder what their genetic background is too. Like if they are actual albino altums (or leucistic?), a mixture of altums and p.scalare, or directly p. Scalare. 
 

Since they are both from the genus Pterophyllum, would this allow altums and scalares cross breed and have an albino line like it is claimed to be by some people? I dont usually understand how far the potential crossbreeding go in these terms. Group, lineage, genus, family… confusing

[Odd Duck]

There are some very strange things that can happen with various pigments and skin / scale structures.  The article @Fish Folk linked is remarkable and the pigment change seems very counterintuitive to me, but I’m certainly not an expert.  Birds have many examples of pigment and pattern changes, most having to do with the transition from immature to adult plumage.  But cockatiels have a particular pattern called “pearl’ where the centers of the feathers are very light to white.  This mostly (but not always) a sex-linked pattern with most males eventually growing out of this pattern.  But, some males will retain the pattern for a few years, some for many years, and some for life.

I don’t begin to understand how that can happen but likely some very complex genetic interaction is happening but I know it does because my males were among those that kept the pearl pattern for several years, but it eventually disappeared.  I have read enough about bristlenose plecos to firmly believe that there are at least 2 different loci for albinism that will “cancel” each other when crossbred and the offspring will revert to brown.  When bred back to either albino the offspring will be roughly 50% albino and 50% brown.

Clearly some of angel coloration is scales and likely some subdermal pigments.  Exactly what those pigments are in this case, I don’t know but it appears to be some form of melanin?  Very strange to me that the fish in the article got darker with less light since we typically see more pigment develop in stronger light.  Clearly there is something else happening there.

[Lennie]

On 1/21/2024 at 6:47 PM, Odd Duck said:

There are some very strange things that can happen with various pigments and skin / scale structures.  The article @Fish Folk linked is remarkable and the pigment change seems very counterintuitive to me, but I’m certainly not an expert.  Birds have many examples of pigment and pattern changes, most having to do with the transition from immature to adult plumage.  But cockatiels have a particular pattern called “pearl’ where the centers of the feathers are very light to white.  This mostly (but not always) a sex-linked pattern with most males eventually growing out of this pattern.  But, some males will retain the pattern for a few years, some for many years, and some for life.

I don’t begin to understand how that can happen but likely some very complex genetic interaction is happening but I know it does because my males were among those that kept the pearl pattern for several years, but it eventually disappeared.  I have read enough about bristlenose plecos to firmly believe that there are at least 2 different loci for albinism that will “cancel” each other when crossbred and the offspring will revert to brown.  When bred back to either albino the offspring will be roughly 50% albino and 50% brown.

Clearly some of angel coloration is scales and likely some subdermal pigments.  Exactly what those pigments are in this case, I don’t know but it appears to be some form of melanin?  Very strange to me that the fish in the article got darker with less light since we typically see more pigment develop in stronger light.  Clearly there is something else happening there.

Thank you very much for your detailed answer Duck🤍