Severe fin rot on Betta - new hobbyist needs help

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/20/2024 at 10:54 PM, VioletT said:

the box says to do a 25% water change after 2 doses. I think in my need to raise water and try to reduce potential ammonia, I may have changed too much of the water so i'll have to do another round but this time with the filter running.

If it says to do a WC on that med, that's perfect then. My apologies for the mix-up!  If it says to do a WC and you do more than 25% that is perfectly fine as well and won't cause issues.  It's just meaning, minimum of 25% water volume to be changed out.

What is the filter you're running, how is it setup?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Wow, there is a lot of advice going back and forth, and I’ve been trying to figure out how I can contribute without adding confusion. So first: welcome! Glad you’re here and seeking help. This is a great, positive community that you will enjoy being a part of. 

Ok, here we go.

This is the proper way to use salt:

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish
 

@nabokovfan87 mentioned:

removing carbon from your filter. I agree. Carbon removes medication from the water.

Removing plastic plants. I agree. Plastic plants are ok for a lot of fish, but with bettas they result in injury and fin tears. Do silk ones, from a pet store not a hobby shop, if you must do fake. Real plants are best and help remove bad things from the water like ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

Extra airstone. For sure. Meds make the water thicker and harder for fish to breathe. Bettas breathe from the surface but when at rest the airstone will help them.

Do not change from one med to another. Agree. Meds stress fish. Stress can lead to more illness or death. Use them sparingly. Take several days or even a week between meds to let the fish rest, if you must change meds. Wait a period of time to see if a med worked or made the fish health worse.

Testing water daily. Agree. This is critical. You should be testing for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Any reading at all on the first two is toxic to the fish and a water change must be done. Use a dechlorinator that detoxifies ammonia and nitrite such as Prime or Fritz Complete. A water change should be done if nitrates are 40+. Take care to match the temp of new water to existing water. I use a meat thermometer.

Betta temperature. At least 80 degrees as @Colu recommended.

I agree with @Colu’s advice on medications suggested. @Colu has invested a large amount of time in researching freshwater aquarium fish disease, and their advice has saved my fish many times.

Avoid pH up and pH down products. Agree. Changing pH causes more harm than good, and in my experience it’s not necessary in most cases. What is important is stable water parameters.

Catappa leaves. Yes! Great for bettas. Antibacterial and antifungal. Use alone if no issue or mild issue; use with meds when treating a moderate to severe issue.

Lastly, if you can, do less. Research before adding anything to the water. You’re not making a soup. Every time something is added it will have an effect on the fish. Meds cause stress. Stress kills fish if not managed properly. But sometimes meds are indeed necessary to save a fish. Use caution and skepticism.

 

Edited January 21 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[VioletT]

I am running an Aqueon quite flow 10 with the carbon filter removed.

I put more crushed coral into my sub straight last night and I'm hoping that helps.

after this last does of EM today I'll be doing 50% water changes. but if I want to do another round of EM the box says to only do a water change after dose 2 which means there will be 2 days with no water change...

the infection has slowed but not stopped. I have prime and trying to attempt a fish in cycle, but every time the ammonia spikes I get spooked and do a 60% water change. not to mention I've been told that if I want to try cycling then I need to not do water changes so that the prime can eat the ammonia. but with daily water changes can I still do a cycle?

[nabokovfan87]

I would grab some of the aquaclear sponge from the local big box store if you can to remove the need for using the cartridges. There is also stuff like a pre filter sponge you could use that would keep the betta fins from getting too close to the intake and add that mechanical filtration.  You can also add in a little bag of ceramic media to the container, if you haven't.

 

On 1/21/2024 at 9:09 AM, VioletT said:

I have prime and trying to attempt a fish in cycle, but every time the ammonia spikes I get spooked and do a 60% water change. not to mention I've been told that if I want to try cycling then I need to not do water changes so that the prime can eat the ammonia. but with daily water changes can I still do a cycle?

Yeah, the infection slowing could've been the result of the salt too! But I want to keep things simple and easy. It always took at least 2 treatments for me with fin rot.

The method of daily water changes when cycling is a tried and true strategy that does a few things. It works and is basically the go-to method if someone gets in a fish in cycle situation.  You remove the water, removing the ammonia and nitrite, lowering those levels to a safe range. Then, you dose in your dechlorinator and it binds the ammonia and reduces the risk of nitrites causing issues for at least 24 hours. (Some say up to 48 hours). Then, you add in your bacteria after that water change is completed and wait 24 hours.for the bacteria to take hold on the media in the filter. Rinse and repeat that until the cycle takes hold.

I just had.to do this recently, tank was cycled in 3-4 days.

[VioletT]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:23 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

 

The method of daily water changes when cycling is a tried and true strategy that does a few things. It works and is basically the go-to method if someone gets in a fish in cycle situation.  You remove the water, removing the ammonia and nitrite, lowering those levels to a safe range. Then, you dose in your dechlorinator and it binds the ammonia and reduces the risk of nitrites causing issues for at least 24 hours. (Some say up to 48 hours). Then, you add in your bacteria after that water change is completed and wait 24 hours.for the bacteria to take hold on the media in the filter. Rinse and repeat that until the cycle takes hold.

I just had.to do this recently, tank was cycled in 3-4 days.

good to know! thank you, that helps a lot. only issue is I don't have bacteria, any good recommendations?

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:38 AM, VioletT said:

only issue is I don't have bacteria, any good recommendations?

Fritz zyme 7 or seachem stability. They all work. I've used tetra, aqueon, a bunch of them. Just make sure you check the date on the bottle.

[VioletT]

On 1/21/2024 at 10:42 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Fritz zyme 7 or seachem stability. They all work. I've used tetra, aqueon, a bunch of them. Just make sure you check the date on the bottle.

okay, thank you

[Whitecloud09]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:54 AM, VioletT said:

the box says to do a 25% water change after 2 doses. I think in my need to raise water and try to reduce potential ammonia, I may have changed too much of the water so i'll have to do another round but this time with the filter running.

Do smaller changes like 25%

[VioletT]

I finished the first round of EM and started the cycling process last night.

This morning my parameters seem to be NH3 - 0.01 NO2 - 0 NO3 - 0. Temperature is sitting at 81f.

The holes in his dorsal fins are larger now and have really shredded them up. The bump on his cheek seems to have gotten enflamed and looks like there might be some pus there. He still eats ravenously but I fear that he might be a little thin because of my efforts to keep the ammonia down. 

Current plan: starting tonight, water change 25%, add prime and stability, add salt? (I think I forgot to add back salt during the water change last night), start another round of EM (and hope that stops the infection(s?)). I could also forgo the EM tonight and start him on Kanaplex tomorrow....

[Colu]

On 1/22/2024 at 5:45 PM, VioletT said:

I finished the first round of EM and started the cycling process last night.

This morning my parameters seem to be NH3 - 0.01 NO2 - 0 NO3 - 0. Temperature is sitting at 81f.

The holes in his dorsal fins are larger now and have really shredded them up. The bump on his cheek seems to have gotten enflamed and looks like there might be some pus there. He still eats ravenously but I fear that he might be a little thin because of my efforts to keep the ammonia down. 

Current plan: starting tonight, water change 25%, add prime and stability, add salt? (I think I forgot to add back salt during the water change last night), start another round of EM (and hope that stops the infection(s?)). I could also forgo the EM tonight and start him on Kanaplex tomorrow....

As the cheek is inflamed and has pus I would do a course of kanaplex it's a more broad spectrum antibiotic treatment 

[VioletT]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:33 AM, Colu said:

As the cheek is inflamed and has pus I would do a course of kanaplex it's a more broad spectrum antibiotic treatment 

Thank you!

[nabokovfan87]

For reference @VioletT The way I handle salt...  Others method's might vary slightly, but this makes it easy for me to keep track.

When I add in the kanaplex, then I add in the salt.  I go through the treatment, once I have done about 4-5 water changes, then I would add in more salt.  The level stays where you want it through treatment, which is about 1 week, then you do your water changes to lower the level back to normal. 

With what you're dealing with, you'll likely be doing back to back treatments of kanaplex.  So, right now, just focus on water changes, daily, no salt. max 50% volume being changed.  You can also track down indian almond leaves for the sake of added benefit and leave those in the tank if you would like too.  Organic rooibos tea is another option.

After about 3-7 days of rest + water changes, maybe the fish improves, but you'll have the old meds removed and be able to proceed with the next step.

[VioletT]

On 1/22/2024 at 2:50 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

For reference @VioletT The way I handle salt...  Others method's might vary slightly, but this makes it easy for me to keep track.

When I add in the kanaplex, then I add in the salt.  I go through the treatment, once I have done about 4-5 water changes, then I would add in more salt.  The level stays where you want it through treatment, which is about 1 week, then you do your water changes to lower the level back to normal. 

With what you're dealing with, you'll likely be doing back to back treatments of kanaplex.  So, right now, just focus on water changes, daily, no salt. max 50% volume being changed.  You can also track down indian almond leaves for the sake of added benefit and leave those in the tank if you would like too.  Organic rooibos tea is another option.

After about 3-7 days of rest + water changes, maybe the fish improves, but you'll have the old meds removed and be able to proceed with the next step.

okay, I think I can do that if I am understanding the directions correctly. Are you saying I should wait 3 days doing water changes before starting kanaplex? or would that be afterwards?

[VioletT]

I think he is improving. I noticed that the edges of his fins are not red anymore and maybe the inflammation has gone down? I'm gonna give him another day of rest and see how he does. Is there a chance that the pus will go away on it's own? or should I not risk it?

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/23/2024 at 1:43 PM, VioletT said:

I think he is improving. I noticed that the edges of his fins are not red anymore and maybe the inflammation has gone down? I'm gonna give him another day of rest and see how he does. Is there a chance that the pus will go away on it's own? or should I not risk it?

I think it's worth treating. Fin rot can linger and you go from things improving to severe body rot pretty quickly.  It's all related.  The rest / recovery helping is a good sign though.

[VioletT]

On 1/23/2024 at 2:01 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think it's worth treating. Fin rot can linger and you go from things improving to severe body rot pretty quickly.  It's all related.  The rest / recovery helping is a good sign though.

okay thank you

[VioletT]

I think things are improving. I added my thirds dose of Kanaplex in the water last night. I think I'm seeing some fin re growth and the inflammation on his cheek has reduced quite a bit and I don't see any pus. My only question now is, after tomorrow if I should start another round of Kanaplex or not.

Note- I have been struggling to get my cycle started because I am under the impression that when putting medication in water you need to remove the media from the filter because it will remove the medication but it is also the filter that catches and populates the good bacteria. Let me know if I am wrong.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:21 AM, VioletT said:

I think things are improving. I added my thirds dose of Kanaplex in the water last night. I think I'm seeing some fin re growth and the inflammation on his cheek has reduced quite a bit and I don't see any pus. My only question now is, after tomorrow if I should start another round of Kanaplex or not.

Note- I have been struggling to get my cycle started because I am under the impression that when putting medication in water you need to remove the media from the filter because it will remove the medication but it is also the filter that catches and populates the good bacteria. Let me know if I am wrong.

You remove the carbon / chemical media from the filtration, not the actual mechanical or biological media.   If you need clarity on this I can elaborate further.  Whatever filter you're running and whatever you're been removing we can get things setup to stabilize the tank.  So, the main thing right now is to have good water quality to give the fish the best chance to get through the treatment as well as recover.

What are your water parameters right now?  That would determine if you do another round or do another round in a week or so.  I have always had to do multiple rounds of treatment for kanaplex, just as a talking point.  I would expect that you do, but it's all depending on the fish in particular and what you're seeing.

[VioletT]

My parameters seemed alright this morning but I think you are right with needing to focus on water quality, NH3 0.03, NO2 0, NO3 0. Currently the only media I have for the filter is the Ecoclear filter pad that came with the filter. I feared that it would remove the kanaplex so I removed it. I think having a better understanding of how filters actually work would be helpful because if I can get the tank cycled then I could do another round of Kanaplex within a week because so far he seems to be improving and I think getting the tank cycled as you say may help with that.

[nabokovfan87]

Yeah, showing the ammonia. Let's check/verify filtration.  Show off what you have and how it's setup if you can.

[VioletT]

Here is the filter I am working with. 

[nabokovfan87]

Ok.  I was working on one of these with someone on the forums and they can be a bit frustrating.

Basically you want to try to use something like aquaclear sponge and to get it to fit in there. It's not an easy one to mod.

The white aquaclear foam would be your best option. Then above that foam you can add a little bag of ceramic media.

If that doesn't make sense I can try to get some diagrams for you. I'm trying to find a good video.

 

You wouldn't need multiple layers of foam, just one layer, but this gives you an idea of how and what you're attempting.

[VioletT]

okay thank you the videos did help me better understand. I will get some foam and media and start to attempt to cycle.

[Fish Enthusiast]

When I first started out keeping fish, it took me awhile but I learned that if you have the animals best interest at heart, you’ll really consider upgrading the tank. Everyone starts somewhere there is no judgment for growth 🙂 what does his diet look like as well? 
 

also quick tip. It doesn’t happen very often but I’ve heard that sometimes painted substrate can be harmful to fish. The paint can break down and decompose releasing epoxy a toxic chemical into the water leading to poisoning your fish. I believe he will get better with a tank upgrade and live plants instead of plastic. Plastic is always hit or miss usually not a good idea since it’s so sharp it’ll cut up your fish. It’d be like if we were in a very small cage with pins and needles sticking through a cage. We’d always get poked!!

 

however I do want to lastly say I’m proud of you. A lot of fish keepers will disregard the animal as worthless and just let it suffer. It’s incredibly admirable to decide to come to a whole new forum to educate one another as well and ensure that you are providing the best treatment for your fish! 
 

blessings!!

Edited February 4 by Fish Enthusiast

[VioletT]

On 2/4/2024 at 1:21 AM, Fish Enthusiast said:

When I first started out keeping fish, it took me awhile but I learned that if you have the animals best interest at heart, you’ll really consider upgrading the tank. Everyone starts somewhere there is no judgment for growth 🙂 what does his diet look like as well? 
 

also quick tip. It doesn’t happen very often but I’ve heard that sometimes painted substrate can be harmful to fish. The paint can break down and decompose releasing epoxy a toxic chemical into the water leading to poisoning your fish. I believe he will get better with a tank upgrade and live plants instead of plastic. Plastic is always hit or miss usually not a good idea since it’s so sharp it’ll cut up your fish. It’d be like if we were in a very small cage with pins and needles sticking through a cage. We’d always get poked!!

 

however I do want to lastly say I’m proud of you. A lot of fish keepers will disregard the animal as worthless and just let it suffer. It’s incredibly admirable to decide to come to a whole new forum to educate one another as well and ensure that you are providing the best treatment for your fish! 
 

blessings!!

Thank you for the encouragement. I have put a lot of time and stress into trying to helping this little guy and it is defiantly a trial by fire. He Seems to be holding it together for now, it's really hard to tell if there is progress but I have noticed that the inflamed sore on his cheek has gone down quite a bit and might disappear soon. My plan it to get the cycle going and potentially another round of kanaplex.

I am considering getting some plants and I'll defiantly will have to educate myself on how to do that correctly. but I've been taking more and more plastics out and replacing it with things like a floating log and other hiding spots. 

Currently I am feeding him three top fin floating pellets two times a day (very basic I know). I recently got him some shrimp pellets and bloodworms.