LFS Says no to floating bags?

[Mercfh]

So I visited a well known and loved LFS for the first time 2 days ago. Place was great, tanks clean and a lot of knowledgeable staff. However they told me something interesting. NOT to float the bag (for *Most* species of fish)

They said "I know it sounds weird but.." and then explained their reasonings:

 

1. The ammonia build up is worse for the fish than the slight change in pH/temp.
2. The fish get stressed because they can see all the hiding spots they want to go to, but can't get to them.

I mean they have a LONG guarantee on their fish, and the reasoning makes sense. Plus the place is HIGHLY regarded where I am. What are your thoughts?

They also basically said not to chase your pH either (Except for highly sensitive fish) and they have hard water/high ph like me and their fish look great?

Edited January 13 by Mercfh

[mrPickles]

I've seen lots of respected fish keepers say the same thing. That's how I've been doing it since reading that and haven't lost a fish or shrimp.

[jwcarlson]

I plop and drop when I get them to temp, typically.

That said... how much ammonia is building up in the ride from LFS to your house?

[lefty o]

if you get so much ammonia buildup in the bag on the drive home, there's something wrong, or you are traveling far enough you should be doing some planning. #2 , maybe, maybe not. if your tank water, and bag water are within a degree or two up or down, it doesnt really matter, but if the bag water is quite a bit warmer than your tank, it can shock and kill the fish. if you still dont want to float the bag for 20min or so, set it against the outside of the tank for a while so the temps get closer to each other.

[Mercfh]

FWIW Im not necessarily saying I agree with them, but I do see their point sorta.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/12/2024 at 6:43 PM, Mercfh said:

However they told me something interesting. NOT to float the bag (for *Most* species of fish)

They said "I know it sounds weird but.." and then explained their reasonings:

 

1. The ammonia build up is worse for the fish than the slight change in pH/temp.
2. The fish get stressed because they can see all the hiding spots they want to go to, but can't get to them.

1. You're not opening the bag and you're supposed to float the bags to match temp.

2. You're supposed to do so with the lights out.

Above is a video and it goes into one method for acclimating fish. There's a lot of methods and advice out there and it changes based on circumstance. I'd be interested to know where the advice came from if you feel like sharing via DM or something. Interesting stuff.

[Galabar]

Ammonia is more toxic to fish at higher temperature (and higher pH).  However, that is more relevant for fish that have been shipped where there is more ammonia build up.

If you are just driving 30 minutes home from your local fish store, I don't think there will be that much ammonia build up...

 

Edited January 13 by Galabar

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

If ammonia is a concern you can put a drop of Prime into the bag water with a pipette.

I think even a 15 minute float is better than none. I don’t think it’s necessary to introduce more stress (temp difference) to the fish if you don’t have to. The more stress, the more likelihood for disease.

I’ve seen a video by Rachel O’Leary where she plop & dropped fish from a shipment because the shipment had been massively delayed. But that was a special situation. Some of the fish were fine. Many were not. But there was a lot of stress from shipping and other variables, not just temp changes.

On 1/13/2024 at 2:27 AM, Galabar said:

If you are just driving 30 minutes home from your local fish store, I don't think there will be that much ammonia build up...

I agree with @Galabar.

[Pepere]

I get fish shipped from Aqua Huna that spend 48 hours in transit that the water tests at a bit under 1 ppm ammonia.   
 

I am not concerned about ammonia build up from the lfs to my house that an additional 15 minutes in the bag equalizing to tank water causes me any concern.

[Galabar]

The following claims that "For example, a fish tank kept at 68 degrees F can tolerate more than twice the amount of ammonia as a tank kept at 86 degrees F."

https://www.algone.com/ammonia-in-the-aquarium-and-its-effects-on-fish-life

Various sources seem to state that ammonia becomes more toxic as temperature rises.

This one also looks interesting:

Edited January 13 by Galabar

[Lennie]

Can it be bcoz they use breather bags instead of normal ones there? Breather bags should not be floated, but it is more about an oxygen issue, does not match the reasons mentioned.

Here is Duck’s message on it:

 Otherwise, if we are talking about normal bags, I float it and turn the lights off, and then plop and drop. I no longer drip acclimate any fish. But if we are talking about extremely sensitive ones like wild caught altums, I heard from experience that only drip acclimate works in this case.

 

some people float it and add water at the same time from the top by opening a bag. So maybe your lfs referred to this. I just float it to equalize temperature and never open the bag. 

Edited January 13 by Lennie

[Pepere]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:18 AM, Galabar said:

Various sources seem to state that ammonia becomes more toxic as temperature rises.

Yes. Because the ph, ammonia, ammonium curve shifts to the acidic side as temp rises.

 

However with trips from lfs to house lasting under a few hours, I really would not be concerned with ammonia levels…. If I tested said water and found ammonia I would be rather concerned about ammonia levels in the fish stores tanks…

 

at 1 ppm ammonia in water from 48 hour transit from Aqua Huna, I have no concerns at all.  I temp acclimate and transfer fish into a net and transfer netted fish to tank.  Aqua Huna water typically arrives around 7.2-7.4 ph.

Edited January 13 by Pepere

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/13/2024 at 1:48 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I’ve seen a video by Rachel O’Leary where she plop & dropped fish from a shipment because the shipment had been massively delayed. But that was a special situation. Some of the fish were fine. Many were not. But there was a lot of stress from shipping and other variables, not just temp changes.

She also heats the room. Bags also can be acclimated to temp that way. But... Severe issue and she had no choice to get the fish out of the bag asap.

 

On 1/12/2024 at 11:27 PM, Galabar said:

Ammonia is more toxic to fish at higher temperature (and higher pH).  However, that is more relevant for fish that have been shipped where there is more ammonia build up.

If you are just driving 30 minutes home from your local fish store, I don't think there will be that much ammonia build up...

The changes happen when you open the bag or if there is a leak in the bag.  During travel oxygen is used and co2 is released. When you open the bag, things change.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/how-to-acclimate-new-aquarium-fish
 

Quote

If you purchased the fish online and they were shipped to you, you may want to use the "plop and drop" method instead. The reason is because ammonia and carbon dioxide from the fish's waste and respiration may have built up in the bag, causing the pH to drop. When the fish bag is opened, the carbon dioxide is released and the pH rapidly rises, causing the ammonia to become toxic and burn your fish's gills. To prevent this from happening, allow the fish bag to float in the aquarium for 10–15 minutes to acclimate them to the water temperature.  (If the fish are in a breather bag that allows gas exchange, place the bag on the aquarium lid for about 30–60 minutes.) Place a fish net over a bucket, cut open the bag, and pour out all the water in the bag. Gently lower the net into the aquarium and let the fish swim out on their own. Any fish that have passed away will remain in the net for you to easily remove.

When the pH is low, ammonia turns into ammonium.  When that pH immediately jumps up it's very toxic.  That is exactly why people "plop and drop"..... after temp acclimating.

Edited January 13 by nabokovfan87
added detail/clarification, removed double link

[Tanked]

I understand their point but am also not in full agreement.

1.  Unless there are too many fish in too small a bag, I don't think ammonia buildup is a concern. 

2.  Not being able to get to hiding places that they can see is the least of their concerns.  (most of the fish bags I've seen are slightly opaque).  For a better understanding of what the fish is experiencing I would go to YouTube  and search War of the World - Captured (3/4). Skip ahead to 3:30-4:05  (After 4:05 the analogy goes completely wrong)😬

 

Immediately after purchase, my fish are placed into a cooler for the trip home.  This gives them some protection from multiple temperature changes loud noises bright lights, etc.  The open bag is floated, and a shot glass (30ml) is added immediately. This is repeated about every 10 minutes.  My fish are usually purchased earlier in the day, so the lights are out. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/13/2024 at 12:11 PM, Tanked said:

Immediately after purchase, my fish are placed into a cooler for the trip home.  This gives them some protection from multiple temperature changes loud noises bright lights, etc

Same.

[TheChosenOne]

I only float them long enough to get them up to temp and then net and drop them in.  In the midst of all that I do open the bag and add dechlorinator to the bag to fight any ammonia that may have built up. I also don't even open the box to look at the fish until I'm read to add decholor to the bad ang float them to keep their stress levels low.   Sometimes I add a little tank water sometimes i don't bother. It's been successful every time since I started doing it.  Someone linked a Rachel O'leary video and I believe it was one of her videos that lead to me giving this a try, haven't looked back since.