Guppies slowly dying….

[JBeehler]

I have 3 strains in 3 separate tanks with something going on. I had black metal lace guppies a few months ago with the same issue. They were housed in tubs outdoors over summer. Attacked by a rogue golden top fin minnow that came in from hornwort. Tried kanaplex and Maracyn 2 that time. Neither helped. Lost 30 fish in a month. Slow spread slow die off. 

20gallon tanks 30-70 fish 1.25gallon water changes ever 6 hours. Tanks 75-78 degrees. No ammonia no nitrite less than 5 nitrate. Midwest hard water well water. 

symptoms start with clamped fins, loss of tail movement, heavier breathing and drooping tails. Then they Typically 1-4 fish at a time have it. Takes about a week to perish once signs show. Running ich x currently this go round as I feel it may be a form of Tetrahymena and all I can find is to treat it like ich. 

please help me figure this out. Don’t want to lose while strains of fish out of the fish room plus worries it will spread to my other tanks/strains.

[JBeehler]

Gh might be low but Ph and KH are still showing liquid rock. 
Pulling alll the substrate out and cleaning up mulm. Anything else I need to be looking at?

@Colu sorry to tag you specifically but with searching your name was prevalent in just about all lengthy logged disease posts

[Colu]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:48 PM, JBeehler said:

Gh might be low but Ph and KH are still showing liquid rock. 
Pulling alll the substrate out and cleaning up mulm. Anything else I need to be looking at?

@Colu sorry to tag you specifically but with searching your name was prevalent in just about all lengthy logged disease posts

Can you post a picture of the affected fish tetrahymena is prevalent in guppy farms and can cause mast die off with out any symptoms it's not something I come across much   aquarium science has a good article about tetrahymena recommended treatment is malachite green active ingredient in ick X or copper safe or  salt baths 5 table spoons a liter for 30 seconds once it gets into the tissue treatment won't be effective with any of the medication that are recommended they only kill the free swimming organism 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Colu

[JBeehler]

I will post a picture tomorrow morning I am out for the night currently. It is only a few fish at a time but all three of these tanks had 100+ fish a couple months ago, I sold 30 fish out of one when I first put them in these tanks and now have less than 50. Thank you for any help and I will tag you when impost the picture.

[JBeehler]

I have sat in front of these 3 tanks for 30 minutes looking at the fish. Each tank is down in numbers from where i started, purple cobras had 2 bodies yesterday but today all tanks look great. Not one looking ill. I will keeping looking and see if one starts showing signs. For what it is worth yesterday I noticed one of the bodies I threw  away the day before had a split open belly? I haven’t seen that before so that strikes me strange. 

[Guppysnail]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:41 AM, JBeehler said:

For what it is worth yesterday I noticed one of the bodies I threw  away the day before had a split open belly?

What are you feeding?  I have seen this in 2 separate occasions with guppies. 1x with freeze dried food and 1x with bloodworms. 

[JBeehler]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:14 AM, Guppysnail said:

What are you feeding?  I have seen this in 2 separate occasions with guppies. 1x with freeze dried food and 1x with bloodworms. 

Tetramin tropical flakes 90%, coop fry food 5%, then random hikari, sera, extreme foods. 

[Colu]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:41 PM, JBeehler said:

I have sat in front of these 3 tanks for 30 minutes looking at the fish. Each tank is down in numbers from where i started, purple cobras had 2 bodies yesterday but today all tanks look great. Not one looking ill. I will keeping looking and see if one starts showing signs. For what it is worth yesterday I noticed one of the bodies I threw  away the day before had a split open belly? I haven’t seen that before so that strikes me strange. 

I would keep treating with malachite green for another 5 days and increase water changes to the lower the bacterial count or you could add a UV sterilisers that can help if your dealing with tetrahymena 

[tike]

On 12/23/2023 at 9:48 AM, JBeehler said:

Gh might be low but Ph and KH are still showing liquid rock. 
Pulling alll the substrate out and cleaning up mulm. Anything else I need to be looking at?

@Colu sorry to tag you specifically but with searching your name was prevalent in just about all lengthy logged disease posts

Does this mean your pH is 8.8?

[JBeehler]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:52 PM, tike said:

Does this mean your pH is 8.8?

Midwest liquid rock. In person it looks kind of in between 8.4 and 8.8

On 12/24/2023 at 4:29 PM, Colu said:

I would keep treating with malachite green for another 5 days and increase water changes to the lower the bacterial count or you could add a UV sterilisers that can help if your dealing with tetrahymena 

These tanks get a ~5% change every 6 hours.  I will continue treating for what you recommend. Sterilizers would be nice but each tank is kept separate from eachother and don’t want to add the expense of multiple individual sterilizers. 
 

as of now between treating and removing substrate and mulm I haven’t seen any bodies or others acting funny. I will keep this post updated for the next few days unless it turns for the worse again.

Edited December 26, 2023 by JBeehler

[JBeehler]

Ok 1 body when I got home today. Was in my black flame endler tank. The provided picture does not show clamped fins but is showing the drooping back and minimal tail movement that was present with other observations of ones that have died. Still no fish showing these signs in the other 2 tanks…

terrbike pictures but this one looks a still just active enough to be a pain to photograph 

[Colu]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:57 AM, JBeehler said:

Ok 1 body when I got home today. Was in my black flame endler tank. The provided picture does not show clamped fins but is showing the drooping back and minimal tail movement that was present with other observations of ones that have died. Still no fish showing these signs in the other 2 tanks…

terrbike pictures but this one looks a still just active enough to be a pain to photograph 

Nothing standing in the picture other than the curved back that can be caused by scoliosis that's really common in Guppies 

[JBeehler]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:22 PM, Colu said:

Nothing standing in the picture other than the curved back that can be caused by scoliosis that's really common in Guppies 

Is there a way to post video? It more so it’s behavior with the arched back that causes me to believe that one is on the decline.

[Colu]

On 12/27/2023 at 1:50 AM, JBeehler said:

Is there a way to post video? It more so it’s behavior with the arched back that causes me to believe that one is on the decline.

You can upload a video to YouTube then link it here

[JBeehler]

@ColuOk no bodies today. I do have a very sick fish in the yellow tiger endlers. This is the first that I have seen so blatant and apparent. What do we have? What do I need to be treating?

same fish. Obvious patches of something on the head and very obvious bleeding either internal or external on the side. 
 

hopefully this will get us on the right track for saving these colonies.

Edited December 27, 2023 by JBeehler

[Colu]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:19 PM, JBeehler said:

@ColuOk no bodies today. I do have a very sick fish in the yellow tiger endlers. This is the first that I have seen so blatant and apparent. What do we have? What do I need to be treating?

same fish. Obvious patches of something on the head and very obvious bleeding either internal or external on the side. 
 

hopefully this will get us on the right track for saving these colonies.

It could be damage from a tetrahymena burrowing into the tissue or a bacterial infections. as your already treating with malachite green what I would do is a course kanaplex just in case there's a bacterial component. I would also do aquarium salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days just in case its tetrahymena causing the red patches. if your guppy shows any de-stress remove her from the salt to a container with half the amount of aquarium salt for a couple of minutes the put her back in the main tank. 

[JBeehler]

On 12/27/2023 at 5:44 PM, Colu said:

It could be damage from a tetrahymena burrowing into the tissue or a bacterial infections. as you’re already treating with malachite green what I would do is a course kanaplex just in case there's a bacterial component. I would also do aquarium salt baths 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days just in case its tetrahymena causing the red patches. if your guppy shows any de-stress remove her from the salt to a container with half the amount of aquarium salt for a couple of minutes the put her back in the main tank. 

What are the odds of it being one fish with it? These tanks have 30-60 fish in them? Is there a more recommended solution for all of them? Run the kanaplex with the ich-x? As label directed for the kanaplex?

[JBeehler]

Also I am not sold on it being tetrahymena. I was unable to see visible signs of sickness other than clamped fins before . I know on the metal laces i definitely saw patches like this guppy presents but the red was not there. This is the 4th or 5th day of ich-x. Columnaris seems like a possibility with what has been seen today. Are there any ways to try and distinguish between the 2?

Edited December 27, 2023 by JBeehler

[Colu]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:58 PM, JBeehler said:

Also I am not sold on it being tetrahymena. I was unable to see visible signs of sickness other than clamped fins before . I know on the metal laces i definitely saw patches like this guppy presents but the red was not there. This is the 4th or 5th day of ich-x. Columnaris seems like a possibility with what has been seen today. Are there any ways to try and distinguish between the 2?

Columnaris is a gram negative bacterial infections that causes white patches that sometimes have a fuzzy appearance to the body and head you can get red sore or lesion spreads more quickly at temperatures over 75 and kill can in 24hr upto 7days for the cold water  stains you can also get some of these symptoms with tetrahymena what i would do treat for a bacterial infection first with kanaplex and aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 3 gallons and stop treating with ick x give an update after 5 days

[JBeehler]

I will start tonight. I will keep posted.

On 12/27/2023 at 6:33 PM, Colu said:

Columnaris is a gram negative bacterial infections that causes white patches that sometimes have a fuzzy appearance to the body and head you can get red sore or lesion spreads more quickly at temperatures over 75 and kill can in 24hr upto 7days for the cold water  stains you can also get some of these symptoms with tetrahymena what i would do treat for a bacterial infection first with kanaplex and aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 3 gallons and stop treating with ick x give an update after 5 days

Water changes as normal and add salt daily?

[Colu]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:36 AM, JBeehler said:

I will start tonight. I will keep posted.

Water changes as normal and add salt daily?

When every you do a water change put back in what you take out so if you do a 3 gallon water change put 1 table spoon of salt back as salt is only removed through water changes 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Colu

[JBeehler]

The fish I posted with the sores is still alive. Looking rougher acting betterphotos are not upside down in my phone. Unsure of why it is on here.

Edited December 30, 2023 by JBeehler

[Colu]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:38 AM, JBeehler said:

The fish I posted with the sores is still alive. Looking rougher acting betterphotos are not upside down in my phone. Unsure of why it is on here.

You might have to do two courses of kanaplex back to back if your not seeing any improvement after the Frist course 

[JBeehler]

Not much has changed. 1-2 fish between the 3 tanks pass every couple days. It may have slowed down some. Maybe. Today was the start of the “second” round of kanaplex regimen. I am really at a loss on what this could be. I thought the purple cobras were good to go but one body today. 

[JBeehler]

Ok so today marks the end of the second round of kanaplex. Is there anything I should follow up with? Been a few days since I have seen a body. Wait a week before selling out of these tanks?