Stem Plants Keep Melting

[Jack CO]

I can’t seem to figure out what I’m doing wrong with my stem plants to cause them to keep melting away, so I’m looking for advice as to what might be the issue. 
My tank I’m having the most trouble with is my 60 gallon. My pH is 7.2 with a KH of 3. I keep the tank at 79 F with about 8 hours of light (hygger full spectrum) at 60% power. My substrate is a layer of gravel capped with sand. I dose easy green weekly, which doesn’t get fully used up so I’m going to lower my dosage, and use root tabs for all the plants as well. My dwarf tiger lotus and vallisneria are growing fine, but they are heavy root feeders unlike stems. I have some pogostemon octopus I got from LRB aquatics that is growing ever so slowly, but every other stem plant I’ve tried has melted.

I’ve tried bacopa caroliniana, red myrio, Brazilian pennywort, anacharis, and most recently scarlet temple, which I got on October 30. Since then it has melted quite a lot, to the point of some of the stems completely melting away. 

My nitrate as of checking tonight is at 30 ppm, which is a week from my last dosage of easy green, which is why I’m going to be doing less easy green in the future. I do not run CO2 and would like to avoid running it if possible. 

I appreciate any advice on how to better grow stem plants or suggestions on a plant that may grow better than the ones I’ve tried. Thanks for the input. 

[JE47]

@JoeQ

[JoeQ]

It almost looks like a sterile environment! How long has this tank been set up? Is the only filtration that sponge filter? Do you have other powerheads/wavemakers helping with flow? How bout algae? Have you been able to grow any algae?

[Jack CO]

This tank has been set up since about June 16th of this year. The only filtration is the two large sponge filters, and there is no wave maker. I was able to grow algae for a while, both on the hardscape and some string algae that was growing on my plants. Since adding my hillstream loaches, the algae has been kept well under control. I’m actively increasing my lighting period to see if it helps the plants, so I’m going to push it until algae starts showing back up. 

Regarding the low flow, that is due to the main inhabitants, my 3 African butterfly fish. I set this tank up specifically for keeping them and they have been thriving since I’ve had them. The other stock is 6 petricola cats and 3 hillstream loaches. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

If your nitrates are at 30 ppm, your lighting at 60%, and your algae at near zero, try increasing the lighting intensity. Maybe bump up to 80% for two weeks and see what happens; maybe 80 is too high or still too low, but you'll need time and growth (or melting/die off) to really know.

@Seattle_Aquarist? Any ideas?

[MattyM]

I've had mixed results with stem plants and eventually just stopped doing them. The ones that worked were a pain to upkeep - trimming and replanting the healthy tops and all that. I still have -a lot- of plants, just no stems and life is good - don't miss them at all. 

[JoeQ]

 How do/did your stems react to your light cycle? Did they open at the beginning of the day and close at night? 

[Jack CO]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:47 PM, JoeQ said:

How do/did your stems react to your light cycle? Did they open at the beginning of the day and close at night? 

All the stems I’ve tried have been emergent growth, so all I’ve ever noticed was the leaves melting back. I didn’t know that they opened and closed throughout the day. I’ll pay closer attention over the next few days to see if my octopus is doing that with what little growth it has. 

On 11/27/2023 at 3:30 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Maybe bump up to 80% for two weeks and see what happens; maybe 80 is too high or still too low, but you'll need time and growth (or melting/die off) to really know.

I’ll give that a shot, worst that can happen is a little algae growth. 

[JoeQ]

On 11/27/2023 at 7:51 PM, Jack CO said:

All the stems I’ve tried have been emergent growth, so all I’ve ever noticed was the leaves melting back. I didn’t know that they opened and closed throughout the day. I’ll pay closer attention over the next few days to see if my octopus is doing that with what little growth it has. 

Stems 'bloom' every morning and close every night. This is usually the first thing I look for.  If they are not reacting to the light (opening/closing or turning towards the light) you have light issues to address. If they are responding but still melting without new growth appearing, they are usually self cannibalizing in an effort to get nutrients. Somewhere on the last page of my main journal I posted a picture of first light vs an hour later to show how they 'bloom' 

Edited November 28, 2023 by JoeQ

[Jack CO]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:04 PM, JoeQ said:

Somewhere on the last page of my main journal I posted a picture of first light vs an hour later to show how they 'bloom' 

I just looked at that post and I sort of see what you mean. The only real difference I can see is with the PSO when it comes to opening up for the light. Maybe one of the lily leaves is more opened too. Most of them seem to be in the same position imo, but that might be my colorblindness talking with all the plants stacked up there haha. 
 

After reading through a few of your journals I’m definitely going to bump up the lighting to 11 or 12 hours and watch for the plants “blooming.” My red tiger lotus is growing pretty well, so I’ll watch it to see if I can notice any difference between first light and a few hours in. Taking pictures would probably help me with that. 
 

I moved a giant piece of dwarf water lettuce into my 60 a few days ago to see if it will actually survive and spread, whereas when I first set up the tank it didn’t survive. So far it seems to be growing and working on spreading. My 29g is filled with it, even with a hang on back being the filter.  

The water lettuce is trying to replace all of my Frogbit it’s doing so well. 
 

I’ll definitely try to keep you updated on my findings with the increase to the light. I really appreciate all of your advice. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:53 AM, Jack CO said:

Regarding the low flow, that is due to the main inhabitants, my 3 African butterfly fish. I set this tank up specifically for keeping them and they have been thriving since I’ve had them. The other stock is 6 petricola cats and 3 hillstream loaches. 

I found this video recently, I had to share!  I would actually start with something like floating plants to get the plant load up.  That helps with things like being able to adjust the light a little bit higher in certain spots.

There's a few things I see going on and I think it might just be due to your light that you're running into some issues.

 

On 11/27/2023 at 5:54 PM, Jack CO said:

I moved a giant piece of dwarf water lettuce into my 60 a few days ago to see if it will actually survive and spread, whereas when I first set up the tank it didn’t survive. So far it seems to be growing and working on spreading. My 29g is filled with it, even with a hang on back being the filter.  

That many floating plants will make anything underneath a low light situation.  You'd want to keep it at ~40% of the water surface being covered maximum if you plan to have some plants in the tank itself that need medium or high light.  You can also use a floating plant ring to corral them into a space (or keep an opening) to allow light to get to the other plants.

In terms of stems, I would probably stick to low light plants with that light.  Given all we're seeing, it's just not a very high par light.  Bacopa should be pretty easy and is one of my go-to stems.  PSO is pretty easy and can be grown floating.  Same thing with hornwort.  I think trying something like anacharis might be a good place to go if you try another one.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Sorry @Rube_Goldfish, no enough information or pictures of plants to evaluate.  -Roy

[Jack CO]

On 11/27/2023 at 10:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I found this video recently, I had to share!  I would actually start with something like floating plants to get the plant load up.  That helps with things like being able to adjust the light a little bit higher in certain spots.

That’s one of my favorite videos. I actually based a lot of my setup from that video. I think I’m in the comments of that video telling him about the possible breeding/courtship that my ABF were doing. 
 

 

On 11/27/2023 at 10:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

That many floating plants will make anything underneath a low light situation.  You'd want to keep it at ~40% of the water surface being covered maximum if you plan to have some plants in the tank itself that need medium or high light.

I typically keep them to about 40% of the surface, but I had spent about a week away from home and they covered the surface in that time. There is actually an airline tube that is stretched across the tank to hold them to one side, but they spread across it still. 

 

On 11/27/2023 at 10:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

In terms of stems, I would probably stick to low light plants with that light.  Given all we're seeing, it's just not a very high par light.  Bacopa should be pretty easy and is one of my go-to stems.  PSO is pretty easy and can be grown floating.  Same thing with hornwort.  I think trying something like anacharis might be a good place to go if you try another one.

I’d be willing to give bacopa another shot for sure. Any specific type you recommend? I haven’t been able to find PSO for sale here in Colorado, but I might order some bacopa and PSO from LRBAquatics, which he sells pretty cheap and already immerse grown. 
I actually have some hornwort in my koi pond, so once winter is over and it grows back I might take some. I might actually try more anacharis because it was great floating coverage for my ABF for the few months it lasted before. 
 

Thanks for all of the recommendations and advice, I really appreciate it!

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:25 PM, Jack CO said:

Any specific type you recommend?

Coop has two types. Visually I really like Caroliniana, but the moneywort is also a bacopa species that tends to be slightly easier.

On 11/27/2023 at 11:25 PM, Jack CO said:

I haven’t been able to find PSO for sale here in Colorado, but I might order some bacopa and PSO from LRBAquatics, which he sells pretty cheap and already immerse grown. 

Sounds like it's time to coop order!!! 🙂

Their PSO has always done well for a ton of people. I'll just mention it and say it grows like a weed. If you can get any other pogostemon species it'll be a little easier. Erectus or dassen are really cool.