FULLY Cycled Tank Crashes Day I Get Fish Delivery

[TimmG]

I'm going to be honest and up front with my situation. My tank has been fully cycled. In the image I started taking new parameter readings after I got my tank set up after the move. I have newer Eco Complete black substrate, with new plants. I added an almond leaf to help put some tannins in, and lower the ph a tad (homes ph is 8.2ish) I also added 2 helpings of Bacter AE to prep the bio film. I ordered fish (pygmy corydoras, emerald rasboras, green koboutai) currently have some ramshorn and trumpet snails in the tank. The day I get the delivery,11/17 I decided it would be smart to test the water before I add fish. As you can see in the image my Ammonia and Nitrite spiked. So between newer plants possibly melting away a bit, the leaf, and the Bacter AE what do you think crashed my tank? The filters have been going for a long while. As you can see I have been doing partial water changes each day to keep the Ammonia levels low. Any insight is appreciated thank you. 

[Galabar]

The 11/8 and 11/14 dates show a small amount of ammonia.

You mentioned that your tank was fully cycled.  What are you basing that on?  Can you give us the previous readings and timeframe?

It could be that nothing crashed your tank.  You simply added more bioload and the bacteria in your tank weren't numerous enough to handle it (or the tank may have not been cycled in the first place).

Edited November 19, 2023 by Galabar

[Fish Folk]

First off… are your fish Ok??

What are you using to measure your parameters? Test strips? Titration tests (API)? Digital?

To me, based on your readings, this does not look like a fully cycled tank.

- 11-08-23 to 11-18-23 is a very, very short time frame for adequate colonies of nitrifying bacteria to populate across the surface of everything. Typically, without a really heavy boost, this takes 4-6 weeks. Adding cycled sponge filters, Eco complete (which you did use), wood from an established aquarium, and loads of sponge filter squeezings really jump-starts it. A week, and your tank might be ready to roll in those situations. 

- Your pH readings are odd, honestly. Your water should _not_ shift abruptly from 8.2 to 7.2 in a single day’s time period. You may need to reassess your testing technique.

- If you are still measuring 1.0 ppm Ammonia on the day you’re adding fish, your tank _was never cycled_.

- A fully cycled tank will _consistently_ read 0 ppm Ammonia, 0 ppm Nitrite, and anywhere from 20+ ppm Nitrate. Your parameters (if accurately measured) are not there consistently yet.

- To have Nitrate nearly zero out is the opposite of a proper cycle.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Fish Folk

[TimmG]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:36 PM, Galabar said:

The 11/8 and 11/14 dates show a small amount of ammonia.

You mentioned that your tank was fully cycled.  What are you basing that on?  Can you give us the previous readings and timeframe?

The fact that the readings I've had before I moved was 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite. Also the 0-.25 Ammonia is fine because you can clearly see the Nitrite is also 0. That means that the previous reading of 0-.25ppm Ammonia us properly converted to Nitrite and then to Nitrate. And when I read my test tube I am strict with myself. Anyone else would probably say that the reading was 0. But it wasn't yellow enough for me to be 0ppm, and at the same time not green enough to be .25ppm. 

[Galabar]

On 11/18/2023 at 4:42 PM, TimmG said:

The fact that the readings I've had before I moved was 0 Ammonia and 0 Nitrite. Also the 0-.25 Ammonia is fine because you can clearly see the Nitrite is also 0. That means that the previous reading of 0-.25ppm Ammonia us properly converted to Nitrite and then to Nitrate. And when I read my test tube I am strict with myself. Anyone else would probably say that the reading was 0. But it wasn't yellow enough for me to be 0ppm, and at the same time not green enough to be .25ppm. 

What was the source of ammonia in the tank before the move?  You mentioned you had snails in the tank.  Was that before the move?  Were you feeding the snails?  Did you notice rising nitrate levels before the move?

Could you get into when you set up the tank, what you added to it, and how long it has been running?

How did you move the tank?  Did you leave the filter submerged?

Edited November 19, 2023 by Galabar

[TimmG]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:40 PM, Fish Folk said:

First off… are your fish Ok??

What are you using to measure your parameters? Test strips? Titration tests (API)? 

Fish and snails are fine. API master test kit I belive. PH changed within the day due to the 25% water changes to lower Ammonia. Tank was completely cycled before move. Had neons happily in tank with snails. 1+yo sponge and HOB filter. I added new substrate, plants, leaf, Bacter AE within the past week. I am also strict on myself when I record water parameters. If it doesn't look exactly like a PH of 8, but not exactly like an 8.2 I will put the range. The Ammonia wasn't yellow enough for me to say it was 0ppm but it wasn't green enough for me to say is was .25ppm. So I put the range. Any other person would probably say 0ppm or maybe even .1ppm. So assuming my previous readings before the crash were PH of 8, AMM 0, Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 5. My tank is therfore cycled.

[TimmG]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:46 PM, Galabar said:

What was the source of ammonia in the tank before the move?  You mentioned you had snails in the tank.  Was that before the move?  Were you feeding the snails?  Did you notice rising nitrate levels before the move?

Could you get into when you set up the tank, what you added to it, and how long it has been running?

How did you move the tank?  Did you leave the filter submerged?

Tank was moved within an hour. Took half the water out of tank, moved whole tank. Readings still all clear that evening after getting plugged in. Just didn't feel like recording at the time. 

Tank was emptied of inert substrate with crushed coral additive because old house water was too soft, now new house water too hard. Added eco complete with plants and snails. Moved neons to other tank. Water parameters fine. Got new plants, added them. Parameters fine. Added almond leaf and 2 scoops of Bacter AE. PH dipped a little but otherwise fine. Then the crash.  

Previous Ammonia was from snails, and neons.

Edited November 19, 2023 by TimmG

[Odd Duck]

I agree with @Fish Folk, these numbers don’t say fully cycled to me.  The only dates where you have 0-0.25 on ammonia are the first 2 dates you started recording values.  The rest all have at least 0.25 or higher.  It looks like you had a couple small spikes but haven’t fully converted yet.  Your ammonia and nitrites should be really no doubt they’re zero, especially nitrite.  The ammonia can be a bit tricky if you have chloramines in your water you can get that in between tint, but nitrite isn’t tricky at all.  It should be clear, obvious, light blue, no purple at all.  If in doubt, stand the tube on a white part of the test card and look down through the tube with good lightning.  That will concentrate the color so you can see the true color more clearly.

I suspect moving the tank stirred up the mulm and has caused a spike.  Did you keep your biofiltration media wet during the move?  If it dried out, it’s going to take time to come back on line.  Bacteria take time to grow, especially the ones that act in the nitrite to nitrate stage.

Do water changes as needed, don’t clean your filter, and use Prime.  If you have another tank that can “donate” filter squeezings, do that and make sure it gets into your filter. Or try some bottled bacteria like FritzZyme 7.

[TimmG]

On 11/18/2023 at 10:42 PM, Odd Duck said:

I agree with @Fish Folk, these numbers don’t say fully cycled to me.  The only dates where you have 0-0.25 on ammonia are the first 2 dates you started recording values.  The rest all have at least 0.25 or higher.  It looks like you had a couple small spikes but haven’t fully converted yet.  Your ammonia and nitrites should be really no doubt they’re zero, especially nitrite.  The ammonia can be a bit tricky if you have chloramines in your water you can get that in between tint, but nitrite isn’t tricky at all.  It should be clear, obvious, light blue, no purple at all.  If in doubt, stand the tube on a white part of the test card and look down through the tube with good lightning.  That will concentrate the color so you can see the true color more clearly.

I suspect moving the tank stirred up the mulm and has caused a spike.  Did you keep your biofiltration media wet during the move?  If it dried out, it’s going to take time to come back on line.  Bacteria take time to grow, especially the ones that act in the nitrite to nitrate stage.

Do water changes as needed, don’t clean your filter, and use Prime.  If you have another tank that can “donate” filter squeezings, do that and make sure it gets into your filter. Or try some bottled bacteria like FritzZyme 7.

Thank you for your input.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I hate to say it, but I also agree that maybe the tank wasn’t fully cycled. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and rising nitrate would indicate that any ammonia source is being fully converted and only showing up as rising nitrates. 
 

You said you switched to eco complete. I’ve never used it, so I can’t say for sure, but doesn’t eco complete leach ammonia? Maybe I’m confusing it for a different substrate (Amazonia, stratum, etc). Leaching ammonia from the substrate switch could be the source of throwing things out of whack. 

[Galabar]

Replacing all of the substrate at once may have been the cause.  A good strategy for replacing the substrate is doing a deep cleaning, and replacing a portion at a time.

However, it looks like you have plenty of biological filtration, including the sponge, HOB, and even a pre-filter on the HOB (and it was running for a year with fish).  I think the "common wisdom" is that the substrate may be responsible for only about 15% of your biological filtration.  So, I'm not sure why you continue to see ammonia. In these situations, in can be hard to pin point a specific cause.

Side note: I use eco complete in all my tanks.  I've never noticed it leaching ammonia.  I don't think it's an "active" soil like some of the others out there (but I could be wrong about that).

Edited November 19, 2023 by Galabar

[TimmG]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:06 AM, Galabar said:

Replacing all of the substrate at once may have been the cause. 

It could have been it, but I assumed my filtration in the 10 gallon with a green medium sponge filter from an "unspecified" company and a HOB filter with a pre filter from same "unspecified" company would be plenty for the bio load of the little tank. I'm pretty sure it's the melting of the leaves from the new plants, and the 2 scoops of AE that upset everything.

[Galabar]

On 11/19/2023 at 12:47 AM, TimmG said:

It could have been it, but I assumed my filtration in the 10 gallon with a green medium sponge filter from an "unspecified" company and a HOB filter with a pre filter from same "unspecified" company would be plenty for the bio load of the little tank. I'm pretty sure it's the melting of the leaves from the new plants, and the 2 scoops of AE that upset everything.

Yeah, that's a tough one.  It seems like your tank "should" have handled things with the sponge and HOB. Also, I don't think adding more beneficial bacteria would upset the bacteria that is already there.  New plants without the tetras shouldn't be any more ammonia than with the tetras and without the plants.

So, my answer is... I have no idea. 🤔 

Well, as long as the "unspecified" company wasn't A.C.M.E. 😉 🐺 🐦

Edited November 19, 2023 by Galabar

[TimmG]

On 11/19/2023 at 4:06 AM, Galabar said:

Yeah, that's a tough one.  It seems like your tank "should" have handled things with the sponge and HOB.

🤔

. 😉 🐺

Idk why I can't get rid of the emojis my phone won't let me, but I had my wife pop into petco since she was in the area and pick up some live bacteria to try and help. She came home with their only option with were these weird orbeez balls that dissolve in the water and releases the bacteria into the tank. Each ball is rated for 10 gallons. I put two in the first day, then the last two in the second. So I have "40 gallons" worth of live bacteria supposedly in my tank. I'll be getting home from work in 4 hours. And I plan on doing another 25% water change before bed. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by TimmG
Spelling

[Galabar]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:17 AM, TimmG said:

Idk why I can't get rid of the emojis my phone won't let me, but I had my wife pop into petco since she was in the area and pick up some live bacteria to try and help. She came home with their only option with were these weird orbeez balls that dissolve in the water and releases the bacteria into the tank. Each ball is rated for 10 gallons. I put two in the first day, then the last two in the second. So I have "40 gallons" worth of live bacteria supposedly in my tank. I'll be getting home from work in 4 hours. And I plan on doing another 25% water change before bed. 

If there aren't any fish or live stock in their, I would not worry too much about the water change.  That will just slow down the cycle.  Just let the tank cycle again.

[TimmG]

On 11/19/2023 at 4:33 AM, Galabar said:

If there aren't any fish or live stock in their, I would not worry too much about the water change.  That will just slow down the cycle.  Just let the tank cycle again.

Oh. There are fish in there. I can't move the new fish to the larger tank. The glo tetras will try to eat them. If not that they will bully them enough to kill them. I lost 2 glo tetras from one glo tetra bully. He ate their eyeballs. Mean fish.

[Galabar]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:45 AM, TimmG said:

Oh. There are fish in there. I can't move the new fish to the larger tank. The glo tetras will try to eat them. If not that they will bully them enough to kill them. I lost 2 glo tetras from one glo tetra bully. He ate their eyeballs. Mean fish.

In that case, the water changes are definitely the way to go. 🙂

[TimmG]

On 11/19/2023 at 4:57 AM, Galabar said:

In that case, the water changes are definitely the way to go. 🙂

Yea. Once pay day hits I'll by some live bacteria to dump in. And I'll put my neons back in the top tank. They luckily are staying within the cover provided in my 15 gallon glo tank. So the only time they get chased around is feeding time. The tetras stay in the middle water column, and the neons stay towards the bottom. I wanted my 10 gallon to be strictly a shrimp tank. And I had bought the pygmy corys, emerald rasboras, and green koboutai to put in my glo tank because they would look awesome in the blue led light. But that was before I saw the animalistic  behavior of the new glo tetras. So it looks like I'll be housing my shrimp with the previously named fish and the neons. And the glo fish will be kept by themselves with some snails.

[Galabar]

One other thought: could your new location have a high level of chlorine or ammonia in the tap water?

[TimmG]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:16 AM, Galabar said:

One other thought: could your new location have a high level of chlorine or ammonia in the tap water?

We are on well water. Very high in GH+KH, 8.2PH from tap. But no Ammonia or Chlorine. The wife and I specifically chose a house with well water so we wouldn't have the added chemicals the gov't puts in our drinking water. 

[Odd Duck]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:47 AM, TimmG said:

2 scoops of AE that upset everything

I missed that you did 2 full scoops.  AE isn’t “beneficial bacteria” in the same way as the beneficials that are part of biofiltration.  It’s food for shrimp, but doesn’t benefit the filtration and I have heard of it upsetting the balance on tanks before.  So we may have a situation where it’s a combo of factors that came into play.  I suspect the move dropped some biofiltration capacity, the substrate change dropped some capacity, the dying leaves from plant transition added bioload, and the AE added bioload and the sum total was too much for the tank to process.

You should be OK if you can keep up with water changes and hopefully the added biofiltration bacteria will tip the balance for you in the right direction.  Just make sure you have some extra aeration for a while as the new bacteria establish.

[Guppysnail]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:47 AM, TimmG said:

and the 2 scoops of AE that upset everything.

 

On 11/19/2023 at 7:12 AM, Odd Duck said:

AE isn’t “beneficial bacteria” in the same way as the beneficials that are part of biofiltration.  It’s food for shrimp

I’m going to second this. It’s equivalent to adding that much extra food you normally would not and worse because it grows bacteria that suffocate good bacteria. 
 

The suffocating is a guess on my part based in experience. I used bacter ae a few time. It does indeed grow a filmy layer on every surface for me. Surfaces are where our good bacteria live. 
 

I dropped down to dipping a toothpick in bacter ae to feed the tanks. I no longer used it once the tank the shrimp were in became established because so much natural biofilm grows in an established tank.