Respectful discussion of filter media efficiency.

[Galabar]

A while back, I noticed this website:

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/7-filter-media/

The site includes an in-depth discussion of the procedures used.  I'm wondering if anyone here has (or knows someone who has) attempted something similar.

My approach recently has been to use foam (sponge), but "protect" it with filter floss.  The filter floss is in an easily-accessible location so that it can be changed quickly.  The foam is never touched, but remains in the filter.

An example of this can be found in Ben Ochart's videos of his sump setups.  He's got filter socks that collect most particulate matter.  It looks like (and maybe he can clarify) that the large foam sponges might never have to be changed (and his water looks very clear).

I've got a similar setup for my Fluval Spec.  Basically, I put some filter floss on the intake and just change it every so often.  I never touch the sponge underneath.  Note that the sponge still has the ceramic media that it came with as well as a bag of carbon that I never changed (it just adds surface area at this point).

My Fluval Spec is the easiest of my tanks to maintain because it takes literally seconds to replace the filter floss (maybe once a month).

Edited August 8, 2023 by Galabar

[RennjiDK]

It's just math. Sponges, depending on ppi, have more surface area than other media types. That's not to say that they're better. They just have more surface area for nitirying bacteria to populate. They're actually worse in the sense that they don't allow bacteria and microfauna with low flow requirements to populate them.

Unless you're looking at pond studies or things published by environmental researchers, you're not going to find a lot of FW aquarium scientific "research" based in actual science.The best you will find is sites like this, that are "science adjacent".

For the record, I do like the site and have quoted that table before, but there's also a lot of claims they make I know to be false.

Edited August 9, 2023 by RennjiDK

[Galabar]

I liked this portion of that site because they did a good job documenting their procedures.

For ceramic rings, I'm wondering if they become better once a layer of mulm develops inside the ring.  That probably means that you don't want to rinse your ceramic rings, as that might reduce their biological capabilities.

For foam/sponge, I'm wondering if a more porous (lower ppi) might be better, as that sponge could be used "forever" without cleaning.  For a highly porous sponge, as long as there is that "protective" layer in front of it (like filter floss), you would never need to touch it.  That lowers its biological capabilities, but greatly increases its convenience.  Going back to the Ben O'Chart video, I'm wondering if he never has to touch those sponges...

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Galabar

[RennjiDK]

If your only goal is nitrification, I wouldn't worry about it. You're still going to have to clean your sponges periodically, and they will eventually degrade, though adding good mechanical filtration before hand will prolong the maintenance. I'd look at floss with different sediment grades, like the rolls from intank, to prolong it even further.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:07 PM, Galabar said:

A while back, I noticed this website:

I would reference scientific studies as opposed to that specific website.  I've heard issues, but just a note that there are research papers on this topic.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49591231_Effect_of_Filter_Media_Characteristics_pH_and_Temperature_on_the_Ammonia_Removal_in_the_Wastewater

[Galabar]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:49 PM, RennjiDK said:

... You're still going to have to clean your sponges periodically, and they will eventually degrade, though adding good mechanical filtration before hand will prolong the maintenance. ...

I've had sponge in my API Filstar that I've had for years (maybe a decade or more?).  It's still going strong.  For the Fluval Spec, if I never have to squeeze out the sponge, I'm guessing it could last for decades.

[Galabar]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would reference scientific studies as opposed to that specific website.  I've heard issues, but just a note that there are research papers on this topic.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49591231_Effect_of_Filter_Media_Characteristics_pH_and_Temperature_on_the_Ammonia_Removal_in_the_Wastewater

For that particular article in that website, they go into some detail, providing what look like repeatable instructions.  I'd love to see someone like Aquarium Co Op have a "shoot out" of aquarium media and see what they come up with.

The idea looks to be to continue increasing the amount of ammonia being added over time to see what each type of media can handle.  It doesn't look too difficult.

[Galabar]

For my Sicce Shark ADV filters, I'm using the ceramic rings in the top and filter floss in the bottom.  I've never rinsed the upper section.  I only change the lower section when flow begins to diminish.  Again, this offers very quick maintenance while maintaining what seems to be very good biological filtration (with the filter floss "protecting" the ceramic media).

[nabokovfan87]

@Galabar I think oxygenation is an important variable to test as well apart from the media type.

[Galabar]

Good point.  I wonder if there is some chemical reaction that could be added to say, a 40 gallon breeder that would consume a large amount of O2.  At that point, you could see how quickly the current filtration method could return the O2 to normal levels.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18965910/#:~:text=Four common techniques for the,analysed by the Winkler method.

https://atlas-scientific.com/blog/how-to-remove-dissolved-oxygen-from-water/

https://onepetro.org/JPT/article-abstract/23/04/443/163837/Chemical-Removal-of-Oxygen-from-Natural-Waters?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Maybe purging with N2?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Galabar

[IanB]

It really isn’t very hard to get enough surface area from any media, combined with surface area in an aquarium to host enough bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrate. In our home aquaria, it really isn’t an issue, so I’m kind of neutral on these surface area claims.

To me, the more interesting, and much less clear question is about converting nitrate to nitrogen gas, or what some people call getting a “complete cycle.” This is probably best known from PondGuru who says his Biohome medias can do this by creating low flow zones inside the media that can host anoxic bacteria that can eliminate nitrate but turning it into nitrogen which then gasses off. PondGuru isn’t alone in this, though. Seachem Matrix makes similar claims in the fine print of their advertising. There are various other proponents of other methods of anoxic filtration. I have yet to see a scientific paper or real clear experiment proving that the commercially available media (matrix or biohome) actually do or do not do this. Almost all YouTube videos that I have seen purporting to prove or disprove this are either flawed (using prime or ammonia-binding conditioners which PondGuru and others say will prevent their media from completing the cycle), one-offs without controls, or have so many uncontrolled variables that their conclusions are suspect. I’d love to see a quality study (and one may be out there that I haven’t come across!) even though in a planted aquarium it matters little to me as I like having nitrates and have to add more via ferts otherwise my plants keep them at zero.

[madmark285]

Glad to see that Pot Scrubber  on the list with good number, just bought some for my new sump filter. I am starting to regret my purchase of Seachem Matrix, it was expensive and I may have fell victim to marketing hype. 

But i agree with Galabad, use separate media for  mechanical and bio-filtration. On my sump filter, I use filter socks which are so easy to clean. I just toss them in the washing machine before my wife wakes up :-).  The bio section is a moving bed filter, more like a lazy river filter as my bio-media are too big 🙂  But i never have to clean this section.. 

My original sump filter used multiple foam pads, it was a nightmare to clean. No more foam pads for me.  

[Galabar]

Agreed.  I never want to squeeze a sponge or maintain a filter.  Pop off the filter sock or quickly change the filter floss -- that is my idea of fish keeping. 🙂

 

[madmark285]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:31 AM, Galabar said:

Agreed.  I never want to squeeze a sponge or maintain a filter. 

The other problem , where do you squeeze a sponge? When I do a water change, I just siphon the water out the window. With python system, you are dumping the water into a sink. With the Tidal filter I am using temporarily, I have to siphon water into a bucket, clean the filter sponge in the bucket then dump the bucket water out the window. Much more work, pain in the a**.

Long ago I had a 50 gallon tank that was difficult to maintain, it crashed and I ended up getting rid of it. I vowed never to do that again. If your tanks are easy to clean, higher probability that you will maintain them, at least for me.

 

 

[MattyM]

Very timely topic! I was just reading through that site the other week as I'll be setting up a sump sometime this year and was pondering media. I think that site also says that the PondGuru guy owns Biohome and makes a really nice profit off of its inflated price. 

My tanks are heavily planted and that is a huge help. I had a Platy disappear, assume died, in a low stocked, planted 10g, and it never showed any ammonia or nitrite spike. The crypt alone in that tank takes up about half of it and presses against the lid, so I don't see certain areas. My theory is that snails broke it down pretty quick, then the plants took in the rest. Sad to see the fish go, but good to know my tank handled the whole thing with minimal intervention from me. That tank just runs an AC sponge filter with some filter floss shoved behind it. 

So with that said, I just use what I have - like what the filter came with, or the Matrix I got just b/c it was on mega sale, etc. I have yet to try any media that floats. 

When I do clean sponges, which is rarely, I use either tank or dechlorinated water. Easy peasy. 

[Lennie]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:33 PM, MattyM said:

When I do clean sponges, which is rarely, I use either tank or dechlorinated water. Easy peasy. 

Actually Jason has a video about it explaining why you don't actually "need" to do that scientifically. I cleaned mined in tap water multiple times and put back into newly changed water where I dosed prime already. Haven't noticed anything wrong with cycle before 🤷🏼‍♂️

In case you haven't seen it, here you go

 

[MattyM]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:38 AM, Lennie said:

Actually Jason has a video

Counterpoint - it depends on your water, and other factors I'm sure:

I believe Jason and I are both on Lake Michigan water processed in Chicago. A test strip registers no Chlorine from the tap (not sure it test for Chloramines too). 

Even so, I like to squeeze in a bucket vs rinse in a sink, so I just add the conditioner. 

[Lennie]

On 8/9/2023 at 7:48 PM, MattyM said:

Counterpoint - it depends on your water, and other factors I'm sure:

I believe Jason and I are both on Lake Michigan water processed in Chicago. A test strip registers no Chlorine from the tap (not sure it test for Chloramines too). 

Even so, I like to squeeze in a bucket vs rinse in a sink, so I just add the conditioner. 

on min 7.15 in Jason's video, based on the study with average chloraminated water, it seems to take over an hour to kill all bacteria 🤷🏼‍♂️ idk. I am not a science guy. But he mention they expose their filter only 15-20secs anyway.

Also Irene's that tank seems very understocked. I can see a single betta and one oto? Maybe that's why. Maybe that tank does not home a big bacteria colony already considering plants also consume stuff that bb would so they even take some part of that very low bioload. Still she mentions cycle was not affected.

 

It is always better to be safe for sure👍🏼

 

 

 

 

[JettsPapa]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:38 AM, Lennie said:

Actually Jason has a video about it explaining why you don't actually "need" to do that scientifically. I cleaned mined in tap water multiple times and put back into newly changed water where I dosed prime already. Haven't noticed anything wrong with cycle before 🤷🏼‍♂️

I've posted that video a number of times when people insisted that you can't rinse filter media in tap water.  When I do I always point out that you should only rinse in tap water if it's a well established tank (I usually say it should have been stable and running for at least 6 months).

[Lennie]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:01 PM, JettsPapa said:

I've posted that video a number of times when people insisted that you can't rinse filter media in tap water.  When I do I always point out that you should only rinse in tap water if it's a well established tank (I usually say it should have been stable and running for at least 6 months).

To be fair, I was hesitant to try it myself. I usually clean my prefilters and rarely sponge filters if this is faster for me to do. If I have a chance to clean in tank water I can do that too. But I understand Jason's point and why he choses this way after having 26 tanks myself. 

 

I have never dumped the sponges back directly when I'm not doing a water change tho (which means there is always prime in the water column even when I wassh my sponges in tap water). 

[Galabar]

For my canister filter (API Filstar), I do clean the sponges in tap water.  The biological media tray contains some ceramic media and various other "stuff".  For that, I just place it in some tank water.  However, I've recently switched from buckets to hoses/tap.  So, I'm not sure what I'll do in the next round for that filter (I might replace it with 2 Sicce Shark ADV filters; it's a 40 gallon).

As for ceramic media, does it actually have pores or just a rough exterior?  If it's just the rough exterior, I can see how it wouldn't have that much surface area.  For pores, I'd guess that those would get clogged pretty quickly.  I'm wondering if the mulm inside the empty circle of the ceramic media might actually be the best place for bacteria to grow?

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Galabar

[madmark285]

On 8/9/2023 at 12:45 AM, IanB said:

To me, the more interesting, and much less clear qustion is about converting nitrate to nitrogen gas, or what some people call getting a “complete cycle.” This is probably best known from PondGuru who says his Biohome medias can do this by creating low flow zones inside the media that can host anoxic bacteria that can eliminate nitrate but turning it into nitrogen which then gasses off. PondGuru isn’t alone in this, though. Seachem Matrix makes similar claims 

I asked about this, someone gave me this link. I bought Matrix for ammonia and nitrites, I don't believe these guys about nitrates. Just keeping anoxic bacteria alive is difficult. 

Alternative Nitrate Reduction via Emergents

[JChristophersAdventures]

I take it the plastic pot scrubbers would work in place of bio rings or similar media in a HOB filter as well? Perhaps with those and some filter floss, it would be possible to do away with the sponge, altogether? Any thoughts? Thanks.

[Guppysnail]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:41 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

I take it the plastic pot scrubbers would work in place of bio rings or similar media in a HOB filter as well? Perhaps with those and some filter floss, it would be possible to do away with the sponge, altogether? Any thoughts? Thanks.

Yes they work the same as sponge for biomedia. 
 

Biological filtration is simple. Oxygenated water moving over any surface your bacteria can grow. No matter how much media / surface you have you will not grow more bacteria than the amount of bioload. I’m excessively over filtered. Not because it does more but each thing does something different for my different needs. Flow, spares to drop in project tanks, HOBs =planters etc 

The more really only comes into play in something like a bare bottom tank with minimal to no plants. I’ve even run tanks with NO FILTER that were incredibly stable and produced lots of offspring. For a few years  I used a pile of rocks with an air hose (no stone) to make a bubble volcano. 
That was my filter. Then box filters made of pillow fiber floss and a deli cup.

All worked great and did the same for biological filtration as the fancy power filters.

The advantage of power filters with different media is mostly just mechanical filtration and the ability to put permanent media that does not need replaced to preserve biological filtration.  Putting different medias stand alone or combine gives you the desired affect you want.  Play around I’ve tried most all of them.  They all do just fine.  I am LAZY so chose sponge because it’s an easy squeeze and also works fabulous for my HOB planters.

 

Moral of my story. They all work just fine.  Have fun trying things and find what you like.  

 

Some sponge 20-30-40 offers some measure of mechanical filtration your pot scrubbers do not. 

[Guppysnail]

@JChristophersAdventures I could not find ACO video of a fish farm. Their filter was only water pouring over a hanging basket of rocks. That worked just as well for biological filtration as any other thing and they raise millions of fish a year. I’ll keep looking for the video.