What About Otocinclus Catfish?

[JChristophersAdventures]

I am considering adding an Atocinclus Catfish to my list for a 75g community tank.

I know it is generally recommended to have 6 or so as they are shoaling fish, but not too many as they can clear a tank of algae (at least the kinds they like to eat) and then have nothing left other than what you feed them.

My question is mainly... which one? Seems there are nearly 2 dozen different ones. The more common ones seem to grow to 2.5" and up. I would prefer some that stay more in the 1"-1.5" max range.

A search revealed 6 that are more in that size range, as follows: Otocinclus Juruenae - 1.3", Bororo - 1.2", Mangaba - 1.1", Hasemani - 1.1", Caxarar - 1" and Tapirape - 0.9" being the smallest.

Does anyone have any experience with these smaller ones? Suggestions as to sellers? Any other useful thoughts? Thanks.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/28/2023 at 2:07 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

I know it is generally recommended to have 6 or so as they are shoaling fish, but not too many as they can clear a tank of algae (at least the kinds they like to eat) and then have nothing left other than what you feed them

repashy super green and soilent green are great foods for otos.  There is also a veggie cichlid food that is from northfin that I quite like.  There are also a variety of algae / spirulina wafers that are good as well.  The main thing to keep in mind is the ingredients and finding something where fish meal is not the #1 ingredient on the list.  Trying to find spirulina or algaes as the top ingredients is best for otos.

In my 75 I planned to have 5 (ordered 6 because that was the pack size) and then ended up with 4 in there now.  I lost one during the move.  I don't think there is any issue having up to 8 in a 75G as long as you have a developed tank and don't scrape the back glass.  It's really cool to see them swim around together.  One of my favorite fish of all time.

[Lennie]

On 7/29/2023 at 12:07 AM, JChristophersAdventures said:

My question is mainly... which one?

Any that you can find tankbred. Wild caught practices are known to be questionable, many of them struggle to complete the journey from nature to the tank and the mortality rate of wilcaught ones are pretty high. Also they are never guaranteed to accept commercial foods or veggies. Even if they do, if they lose their gut bacteria prior to ending up in your tank, that's a ticking bomb. They will die no matter how much you feed.

I personally believe otocinclus are being this hyped as algae eaters because every list and videos online point to them a great algae eaters. In my experience, they have a very limited range of algae that they consume, and I cant deny how amazing they are at eating diatoms, but after that phase is over, which is very short for most people, they are basically not effective to eat any noticable algae in my opinion.

I suggest keeping them only if you really like them as a fish, not a a cleanup crew member. And definitely get tankbred ones if you will.

If you don't really enjoy them and jut wanna keep them for algae eating purposes, and cant happen to find tankbred ones, I would go for other algae eater options 🤷🏼‍♂️

Edited July 28, 2023 by Lennie

[JChristophersAdventures]

@nabokovfan87 @Lennie Thanks for that information! I do like them, although I like Cory's and Kuhli Loaches, too. Will definitely do the Corys, but not sure yet about kuhlis and/or otos... I don't want to crowd out the space for other schooling fish.

[Odd Duck]

Otos are adorable little fish, IMO, so I don’t really care if they eat algae or only eat the food I give them, or just help to stir up the mulm for the filter to pick up.  They aren’t the best at stirring up mulm, cories are much better at that, but they’re still cute fish.  They will visit all parts of the mid to lower regions in a 75 G, but probably won’t be up around the top a lot in a tank that deep.

Cories don’t eat any algae to speak of, they really eat worms and aquatic insects in the wild but will accept nearly any food in captivity (but really do love whiteworms, blackworms, and Grindal worms).  I have around 6 or 8 each of bronze cories and trilineatus cories in my 100 G nanofish tank along with assorted tetras, rasboras, and bristlenose plecos, a single clown pleco and a single gold nugget pleco.  I might still have some Kuhli loaches somewhere in there, it’s a bit hard telling with this much plants and hardscape.  I have other cory groups in other tanks.  I also have otos in this and other tanks.

Sorry, I get a bit side tracked after coming off a long, very busy shift with my brain a bit melted.  My point is, that in a 75 G, you can have an appropriate group of several different bottom feeders comfortably together as long as you choose species carefully and don’t get carried away.  I don’t mix cories from the same family group - my gold lasers are in a different tank since I wouldn’t want them to breed with my bronze cories.  My sterbai cories are in another tank since I don’t want them to breed with my trilineatus cories.

It’s completely possible to have otos with cories - they eat different things, get along great, are completely peaceful, and will even hang out together sometimes.  I don’t recommend you expect them to be a sufficient group for each other.  I would get 6-8 cories of the same species and 6 or so otos.  It will likely be very challenging to find more than one species of tank bred otos.  It’s not impossible, but not common, either.  @Lennie is exactly right about finding tank bred otos (or at least farmed) if you can instead of wild caught if possible.  They will adapt better and do much better for you.

It’s very easy to find loads of species of cories that were tank bred.  They are much easier to breed than otos and tend to be much sturdier fish and adapt easier to new water conditions.

Oh, and shoaling isn’t quite the same as schooling.  Schooling is like anchovies - they swim round in a tight group as a “safety in numbers” strategy to fool the eye of predators.  Shoaling fish hang out in very loose groups as a more social thing with less of the “safety in numbers” although that’s still a bit of it, but it doesn’t appear to be a primary thing since many shoaling fish (like most tetras or most rasboras) are just as likely to be off on their own if there are no large, potential predators in a tank.

[JChristophersAdventures]

@Odd Duck Thanks! Sounds like you have some interesting community tanks. I may get a half dozen otos and a half dozen kuhlis, as well along with a dozen or so corys (the corys will all be the same). I will keep your "tank bred" advice in mind. My main concern is that I don't want the otos getting very big. I plan to have honey gourami as the centerpiece fish so I don't want the otos to get quite as large as that.

Eating algae isn't really that important as there will be nerite snails and neo shrimp, plus the room is nearly completely dark (windows will remain blacked out, as they are right now) and I will be using lower light plants with restricted hours on the lights. I was always pretty good at preventing excessive algae when I had aquariums in the past.

It is surprising that there aren't more tank bred varieties of smaller otos out there. With the popularity of nano fish that would seem like a great breeding opportunity, whether for profit or not. As I mentioned, there are at least 5 that range in size as follows: Otocinclus Juruenae - 1.3", Bororo - 1.2", Mangaba - 1.1", Hasemani - 1.1", Caxarar - 1" and Tapirape - 0.9" being the smallest... all of these are smaller than the common otos which grow to 2"-3" inches according to a lot of web sources. I plan to do cory hasbrosus, which are almost like pygmies in size, and I would be nice for the otos to stay in the same size range (yes, I know the kuhlis would grow longer, but they still look smaller being so skinny).

Anyway, that's the plan, if I can find the smaller otos... if not, then I will have to decide whether to try the common oto and keep it in the back of my mind to breed some of the others at a later date, when I am set up to do that. Thanks.

[Odd Duck]

Otocinclus vitatus is by far the most common in the trade (and sometimes macrospilus) and between the 2 of them, they are at least 50% of what you see in the trade.  They both max out about 2” nose to tail tip, but they are a slim built fish and very minimal bioload compared to rather chunky cories at the same length that probably weight in at least 4 times as much as otos.  I’ve occasionally seen cocama (planetcatfish.com says they run about 9% of the trade, affinis runs about 8.5%, vestitus runs about 7.5%, and down from there.  The species you’re listing don’t even make the list of most kept species seen in the trade on planetcatfish.com, so it’s very unlikely you’ll find them.

I’m pretty certain I’ve never seen any of the others you’ve mentioned in the trade.  Yes, they exist, but you’re going to have a very tough time finding them, almost guaranteed you won’t find them tank bred, and might have to pay a premium for a special order if you can find them at all.  If you find them, let me know where.  They sound interesting.

Truly, if you can find vitatus tank bred at a decent price, you’ll be doing very well with them.  I’ve never found them tank bred locally in the DFW, Texas area with dozens of fish stores serving a population of around 6.5 million people.  I don’t mean to be just negative but I am trying to paint a realistic picture for you.  I’ve seen the fish lists the local stores have available to order from and they don’t even list otos by species, just “Otocinclus” unless they happen to have cocama or very rarely, some of the bigger oto species, never the smaller species.  🤷🏻‍♀️ I wish it was different.  I’d love to find some of the smaller species for a few of my small, nanofish tanks.  They would get completely lost in my 100 G nanofish tank.

[JChristophersAdventures]

@Odd Duck Thanks. That's kind of what I was running across. So many fish of all kinds are not yet being bred, even though there would seem to be a potential market and demand for them if they were available. Look at how popular pygmy corys have become... no reason to believe that pygmy otos wouldn't be popular as well. Yes, when I am ready to breed fish, I might just have to go directly to the native source and get some to spawn.

But that will be awhile so in the meantime, I may opt for some more common otos... the macrospilus would be my preferred choice as seems a bit more colorful. Thanks, again.

[Odd Duck]

On 7/29/2023 at 6:41 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

@Odd Duck Thanks. That's kind of what I was running across. So many fish of all kinds are not yet being bred, even though there would seem to be a potential market and demand for them if they were available. Look at how popular pygmy corys have become... no reason to believe that pygmy otos wouldn't be popular as well. Yes, when I am ready to breed fish, I might just have to go directly to the native source and get some to spawn.

But that will be awhile so in the meantime, I may opt for some more common otos... the macrospilus would be my preferred choice as seems a bit more colorful. Thanks, again.

If you find some I’ll go in with you!  I had never heard of Pygmy cories back in the day but find them delightfully cute!  I think Pygmy otos would be the same.  I bet they’d get along just fine with Pygmy cories, too.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Otocinclus have been coming on strong with several reputable sources online putting them out there but the genus is a bit of a muddle. Many “Otos” are not algae eaters at all, most likely are omnivores. Vitatus is a true algae and biofilm eater whereas some of the newer ones such as the “peppermint”, orange and others are actually omnivores. So do beware of that. Many have found it difficult to eat and care for with many an experienced keeper running into loads of frustration. Take a look at the breeding and keeping reports on PlanetCatfish. 
 

If I was you I’d stick with vitatus, @Odd Duckhas great points as does @Lennie. 
 

As for kuhlis, I think a half dozen in a 75 is a waste. 15-25 minimum if you want to see them. They have such a small bioload and if introduced after the tank is matured I think you’d see loads of action especially as the lights go down. In my sons 10 g he has a night light that slowly transitions colors and they dance in the light. Magic! Have fun!

[_Eric_]

Agree with @Odd Duck - if you find these mini otos for sale, let the forum know!

I have vittatus currently. Or at least they look like that to me. They are great algae eaters in my experience.  They won’t touch thread algae but they will demolish green algae.  

I agree that they won’t look big next to your honeys.  They are kind of shark shaped so they still seem small to me in the tank when grown.  They do like to hang on the glass and some people don’t like that look.  

[JChristophersAdventures]

@_Eric_ @Beardedbillygoat1975 @Lennie Thanks... I hadn't thought about there being big behavioral differences between similar sized otos. That is definitely a big mark in favor of vittatus. I don't mind a little fish that sometimes hangs on the glass... although I honestly don't find it to be a great selling point for the larger plecos. (lol)

Yes, I should probably aim more toward a dozen kuhlis (and the idea of introducing them well after the tank is established sounds like a smart idea). There will be 2 light sources for the tank (one across the front half, the other across the back half with the idea of staggered timers to more closely simulate dawn and dusk... that will allow me to use the ACO tank lighting... one on the blue setting... one on a lower regular light setting. Thanks, again for all your help.

[Lennie]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:10 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

@_Eric_ @Beardedbillygoat1975 @Lennie Thanks... I hadn't thought about there being big behavioral differences between similar sized otos. That is definitely a big mark in favor of vittatus. I don't mind a little fish that sometimes hangs on the glass... although I honestly don't find it to be a great selling point for the larger plecos. (lol)

Yes, I should probably aim more toward a dozen kuhlis (and the idea of introducing them well after the tank is established sounds like a smart idea). There will be 2 light sources for the tank (one across the front half, the other across the back half with the idea of staggered timers to more closely simulate dawn and dusk... that will allow me to use the ACO tank lighting... one on the blue setting... one on a lower regular light setting. Thanks, again for all your help.

If you want some more active fish that would assist you through cleaning the glasses and surfaces (but not green spot algae ofc, they are nerite snail specific), then you can check Hillstream loaches or borneo suckers.

I haven't kept them yet as my LFS is not willing to carry them any more due to their high cost, but panda garras also look adorable to me.

If you will have good oxygenation in the tank, these can be also good options I believe

 

 

here is species spotlights for both:

 

I have borneo sucker so I may help on that one. @beastie has both hillstream loaches and panda garras so she may help for them if you have any questions.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Lennie

[_Eric_]

On 7/30/2023 at 10:10 AM, JChristophersAdventures said:

@_Eric_ @Beardedbillygoat1975 @Lennie Thanks... I hadn't thought about there being big behavioral differences between similar sized otos. That is definitely a big mark in favor of vittatus. I don't mind a little fish that sometimes hangs on the glass... although I honestly don't find it to be a great selling point for the larger plecos. (lol)

Yes, I should probably aim more toward a dozen kuhlis (and the idea of introducing them well after the tank is established sounds like a smart idea). There will be 2 light sources for the tank (one across the front half, the other across the back half with the idea of staggered timers to more closely simulate dawn and dusk... that will allow me to use the ACO tank lighting... one on the blue setting... one on a lower regular light setting. Thanks, again for all your help.

If you are looking for a good cheap option to simulate dawn and dusk, I’d recommend the programmable light from Hygger.  Hygger makes some stuff that is trash but this light is really good.  You can program different intensities at different times and it makes the adjustments gradually instead of suddenly.    I only have  the 30-36” but I bet the 48” would be good as well.  Something to consider anyway.  FWIW

[Shadow]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:21 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

repashy super green and soilent green are great foods for otos.  There is also a veggie cichlid food that is from northfin that I quite like.  There are also a variety of algae / spirulina wafers that are good as well.  The main thing to keep in mind is the ingredients and finding something where fish meal is not the #1 ingredient on the list.  Trying to find spirulina or algaes as the top ingredients is best for otos.

In my 75 I planned to have 5 (ordered 6 because that was the pack size) and then ended up with 4 in there now.  I lost one during the move.  I don't think there is any issue having up to 8 in a 75G as long as you have a developed tank and don't scrape the back glass.  It's really cool to see them swim around together.  One of my favorite fish of all time.

I highly recommend EBO Foods Spirulina Softgran and Veggie Sticks. I have a shoal of 6 in my 20 gal and they are a bit shy but love to eat. They also like to eat the Bug Bites I feed the Odessa Barbs in there and defo jump on frozen bloodworms that fall to the bottom when not eaten by my Dalmation Molly & Black Angelfish. They are a cool fish whether you get the standards or minis. 🙂 

[JChristophersAdventures]

@Shadow @nabokovfan87 Thanks! I really haven't given much thought to the food, yet... will be working on lighting, filtration and quarantine tanks next. Excellent information I will be referring back to it.