Other Factors that Lead to Fish Stress and Disease?

[tetra]

This has been going on for a while now but it seems as if every month or two a fish in my aquarium dies but only starts showing symptoms a few days before it passes. Even though I've tested my water everything was fine. My GH is 3. My Ph is 6.8 (it hasn't fluctuated at all for almost 2 months). My ammonia and nitrite are both 0. And my nitrates have been usually around 10-20ppm every week. And even all of this, and they still get sick. Their fins become ragged, they sometimes get parasites, and now one of my rainbowfish have yellow spots on their lower fin near their anus. I'm not sure what's going on. I've medicated the tank several times in the past. But now I just stopped. Cause I realized I'm just putting a band-aid on it and I'm not finding the root cause of the problem. Not only is it costing money, but when I see no more symptoms (even after medicating for an additional week) they just get sick again. Fortunately, they are still eating like pigs. But for now, I haven't seen a death for about a month or two. I'm still confused about this because my water parameters are normal and there should be enough hiding spots in the tank for them to flee from other fish. 

 

I just don't get it. Everything is normal yet they still eventually die anyways. I have noticed fin nipping in my zebra danios and 2 of them have gotten a deep bite in the caudal fin but its now growing back. They have been more aggressive than usual towards each other also, which I think could be a problem, too. But after all those deaths, I only have 5 danios left. I think that could be the reason for their aggression.

 

Constantly being worried that I'm gonna wake up to one of my fish dead tomorrow really sucks. And I can't even enjoy it as much because of this. Another thing that could be the reason is old age. They are 2 years old but I think zebra danios and rainbowfish live a little longer than that.

 

If anyone has a solution to this problem, I thank you in advance☹️.

[Colu]

Have you noticed any rapid breathing listlessness hanging near the surface flashing spitting food out sunken belly @tetra

[tetra]

@Colu I haven't seen any of those symptoms at all except one of my danios were skinnier than usual. It is still relatively active and has good color, no fin damage I assume. But I did have a danio that got parasites and unfortunately died. Not so long after that, the one I was talking about began to lose weight. It used to be a lot fatter but is now skinnier but not overly skinny. Also, the rainbowfish with yellow spots on its fins has ragged fins in that area, as well and some of the other rainbowfish have ragged fins, too.

[Colu]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:29 PM, tetra said:

@Colu I haven't seen any of those symptoms at all except one of my danios were skinnier than usual. It is still relatively active and has good color, no fin damage I assume. But I did have a danio that got parasites and unfortunately died. Not so long after that, the one I was talking about began to lose weight. It used to be a lot fatter but is now skinnier but not overly skinny. Also, the rainbowfish with yellow spots on its fins has ragged fins in that area, as well and some of the other rainbowfish have ragged fins, too.

What medication have you treated with 

[tetra]

I've used Fritz maracyn and Ich-x but I only used Ich-x for only a week. But I did continue dosing maracyn for another 2 weeks before I stopped dosing it entirely cause it did pretty much nothing.

[Colu]

What I would do is treat with anti-parasitic medication such as prazipro or paracleanse prazipro is better value for your money you dose on day one leave it a week do two  50% water changes over 2 days then redose repeat  this for 3 full courses of treatment over 3 weeks @tetra

Edited July 22, 2023 by Colu

[tetra]

What about the ragged fins and yellow spots on the rainbowfish? Should I dose maracyn and Ich-x?

Do I use just paracleanse or paracleanse and prazipro together?

[dasaltemelosguy]

Hi @tetra,

My experiences may bear no relation to what’s going on with you, but I’ll describe them should it hold some value for you.

I had period, mysterious deaths occurring twice.

If I were to approximate, one or two a month of what appeared to be perfectly healthy adults suddenly died for no apparent reason, for several months. My fish seemed completely normal up to about 3 days before they passed. Just prior to their expiration, they would stop eating and I’d find them dead usually a day or two afterwards.

I tried praziquantel, metronidazole, erythromycin, Epsom salt baths, nitrofurazone and kanamycin but the chronic deaths continued. @Colu suggested I dose the entire tank with levamisole. The following day it looked like someone had dumped an entire pack of bloodworms on the gravel. That ended this problem. 

A second time with another tank I ran into mysterious, chronic deaths and once again, none of these remedies seemed to work. This time, including levamisole. I was losing a fish a month and after 3, I dissected one of the ones that passed, and we saw multiple blood spots all along the inside of the body cavity.

I had the luxury of a microscope, and a friend, @Odd Duck knew what to look for and she saw protozoic infestations and prescribed daily Epsom salt-soaked food with metronidazole and it completely cleared up. I still have that group today although they are huge adults now.

For me, dissection was no fun, but it did reveal a great deal about the problem. It may reveal some information of value even without a microscope. Good luck.

[tetra]

Do you recommend I try any of the meds @dasaltemelosguy?

I'm pretty curious cause it could solve my problem.

[Colu]

On 7/22/2023 at 2:34 AM, tetra said:

What about the ragged fins and yellow spots on the rainbowfish? Should I dose maracyn and Ich-x?

Do I use just paracleanse or paracleanse and prazipro together?

I would just treat with prazipro can you get a picture of yellow spots on the rainbow fish 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Colu

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:53 PM, tetra said:

Do you recommend I try any of the meds @dasaltemelosguy?

I'm pretty curious cause it could solve my problem.

Overall, I've had the most success with levamisole. I've never seen it fail whereas I've had mixed results with most other medications. Although that's comparing apples and oranges. But I'm no expert. I'd definitely defer to @Colu or @Odd Duck

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:54 PM, Colu said:

I would just treat with prazipro can you get a picture of yellow spot on the rainbow fish 

 

On 7/21/2023 at 7:00 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

Overall, I've had the most success with levamisole. I've never seen it fail whereas I've had mixed results with most other medications. Although that's comparing apples and oranges. But I'm no expert. I'd definitely defer to @Colu or @Odd Duck

A bit of a clarification here....
 

On 7/21/2023 at 5:32 PM, tetra said:

I've used Fritz maracyn and Ich-x but I only used Ich-x for only a week. But I did continue dosing maracyn for another 2 weeks before I stopped dosing it entirely cause it did pretty much nothing.

If you're treating for Parasites (internal or external) I would highly recommend @Odd Duck's technique for using both meds simultaneously to cover your basis.

The normal methodology for parasites is a minimum of ~3 treatments with 4-6 being a preferred range.
Day 1: Clean the tank with a heavy gravel vac and water change, Dose in expel-P (Levamisole) and blackout the tank for 24 hours.  This is because levamisole is light sensitive.
Day 2-6:  Water change, heavy siphon and proceed with use of either paracleanse or prazipro per the directions on the package.  These are similar medications with a slight variation on their active ingredients.

Repeat this for a total of 4-6 treatments in a severe case.

I will try to find one of Odd_Duck's posts which clarifies if this is to be done weekly or bi-weekly.

Here is Odd_Duck's Directions:
Levamisole (Expel-P): Weekly
Prazipro/Paracleanse: Bi-weekly
 

Quote

Deworming

Siphon out debris from the bottom before and after dosing to remove any expelled worms, eggs, debris, etc.  Levamisole is inactivated by organic debris and by light, so dose after lights out and black out the tank for 24 hours, remove organics via water changes and cleaning the bottom of debris as much as possible.

It’s likely that levamisole does what it can do within the first hour, but best to follow directions precisely.  If you have a bare bottom hospital tank available, it might be best and easiest to transfer the fish to that tank for the duration of treatment - up to 5 weeks total treatment time if doing 3 doses of praziquantal.

Levamisole treatment should be weekly for 4 treatments.  Praziquantal treatment should be every other week (at least) for 2-3 treatments and it is left in for a week at a time.  It can be dosed the day after levamisole treatment.  Remove any carbon or Purigen from filters before dosing.

Have enough dechlorinated water to do a 50% water change immediately if any adverse symptoms are seen in the fish.

A typical treatment regimen: 

1. 50% water change with careful siphoning of debris from the bottom of the tank.

2. Dose with levamisole and black out the tank for 24 hours.  Then 50% water change siphoning the entire bottom of the tank.

3. Dose with praziquantal directly after the second 50% WC.

4. One week later, 50% water change siphoning the bottom thoroughly.  Dose with levamisole following directions in step 1-2.

5. One week later (start of week 3 of treatment), repeat all steps 1-4 over another 2 weeks time.

6. Repeat all steps 1-5, then do last WC one week later after third dose of praziquantal.

Not all snails will tolerate treatments, so best to remove any snails in the tank.

 

Condensed, weekly schedule:

Week 1: siphon debris and do 50% water change, levamisole x 24 hrs, siphon.  Treat with praziquantal and leave in until next week.

Week 2: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon.

Week 3: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi.

Week 4: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon.

Week 5: siphon, levam x 24 hrs, siphon, then prazi.

Week 6: siphon.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Odd Duck]

@tetra, did I miss the part about what size tank you have, what inhabitants there are and how many?  What kind of filtration?  Pics of the tank can be very helpful, too.  I would treat at least with levamisole, but the double up treatment that @nabokovfan87 listed covers the majority of parasites and the most common ones.  I’m concerned there may be a source of stress that we haven’t pinpointed yet.  Intestinal parasites could be it, but there are other possibilities, too, so more info is helpful.  The more we know about your tank the better advice we can give.

[tetra]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:48 AM, Odd Duck said:

@tetra, did I miss the part about what size tank you have, what inhabitants there are and how many?  What kind of filtration?  Pics of the tank can be very helpful, too.  I would treat at least with levamisole, but the double up treatment that @nabokovfan87 listed covers the majority of parasites and the most common ones.  I’m concerned there may be a source of stress that we haven’t pinpointed yet.  Intestinal parasites could be it, but there are other possibilities, too, so more info is helpful.  The more we know about your tank the better advice we can give.

Currently, I have 5 zebra danios and 5 Murray River rainbowfish. The tank size is 29G and I’m using a Seachem Tidal 35 modified with more sponges.

On 7/21/2023 at 6:54 PM, Colu said:

I would just treat with prazipro can you get a picture of yellow spots on the rainbow fish 

I also Included the skinny zebra danio @Colu.

Also, now the other rainbowfish have the yellow markings now.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/22/2023 at 1:50 PM, tetra said:

Also, now the other rainbowfish have the yellow markings now.

Can you point to the markings on the photo you're talking about just so we have a clarity?

[tetra]

 Sorry I didn’t point it out where it’s at.

The tip of the anal fin is also a little ragged.

[tetra]

Update:

This morning when I turned the lights on, I noticed one of my danios were lethargic and all the danios had bright red or discolored gills. They also got the yellow fins from the rainbowfish now and its spreading. So I added Seachem Prime to detoxify any possible ammonia or chlorine in the water. But I did a 50% water change yesterday and added prime. So it shouldn't be chlorine. I also added a a banana plant cutting from one of my tanks established one. 

A few hours later though, everyone was relatively active but still had discolored gills and yellow fins. 

Note: I haven't treated for parasites or bacterial infections yet because I'm not sure what to do.

[nabokovfan87]

@Colu @Odd Duck

On 7/24/2023 at 6:38 PM, tetra said:

This morning when I turned the lights on, I noticed one of my danios were lethargic and all the danios had bright red or discolored gills. They also got the yellow fins from the rainbowfish now and its spreading.

The color on the fins indicated above looks like pattern to me. Is that what we're looking at? Any thoughts on the update and symptoms?

On 7/24/2023 at 6:38 PM, tetra said:

Note: I haven't treated for parasites or bacterial infections yet because I'm not sure what to do.

You can always start with aquarium salt and catappa leaves for most situations.

In terms of the above Information, are all of the fish eating do any of them look excessively bloated or have a sunken belly?

The salt should help with some of the gill issues you mentioned. My normal dose is 1/3 Cup per 10 Gallons,  (1 TBSP per 2 Gallons)

The above recommendation is to start with prazipro. If you need help on the directions please let us know.

Edited July 25, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Colu]

On 7/25/2023 at 3:37 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

@Colu @Odd Duck

The color on the fins indicated above looks like pattern to me. Is that what we're looking at? Any thoughts on the update and symptoms?

You can always start with aquarium salt and catappa leaves for most situations.

In terms of the above Information, are all of the fish eating do any of them look excessively bloated or have a sunken belly?

The salt should help with some of the gill issues you mentioned. My normal dose is 1/3 Cup per 10 Gallons,  (1 TBSP per 2 Gallons)

The above recommendation is to start with prazipro. If you need help on the directions please let us know.

Am struggling to see yellow spots on the tail fin it looks more like natural colour to the tail what species of rainbow fish is it is more than likely natural colour to the tail fin @tetra

Edited July 25, 2023 by Colu

[tetra]

On 7/25/2023 at 4:31 AM, Colu said:

Am struggling to see yellow spots on the tail fin it looks more like natural colour to the tail what species of rainbow fish is it is more than likely natural colour to the tail fin @tetra

After @nabokovfan87 said it looks like natural colors, I started doing research and looking at images of Australian rainbowfish and eventually found a photo that shows a yellow caudal fin on a Australian rainbowfish and it looks some what similar to what I have.

I also wanted to include that I bought a light for the tank a couple weeks ago (The tank hasn’t had a light for over 2 years). And in this time I thought that maybe they didn’t color up cause of not having a light ever sense I got them.

I did do research on zebra danios as well to see why they had yellow fins. And I found another forum that said that male zebra danios will get yellowish fins when they’re possibly gonna breed. Except I’m not sure this is true for me though cause it seems one gets extremely sick only a few days before it passes. Though it would be nice for them to breed for me.

 

At least now that’s out of the way I wanted to know why the fins were ragged. My male rainbowfish have been showing off to each other and chasing each other around the tank. The males have been chasing the females as well. I do see some fin nipping when this does happen. I don’t know if this is a bacterial infection or it’s just from being excessively nipped.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/25/2023 at 5:26 PM, tetra said:

I did do research on zebra danios as well to see why they had yellow fins. And I found another forum that said that male zebra danios will get yellowish fins when they’re possibly gonna breed. Except I’m not sure this is true for me though cause it seems one gets extremely sick only a few days before it passes. Though it would be nice for them to breed for me.

 

At least now that’s out of the way I wanted to know why the fins were ragged. My male rainbowfish have been showing off to each other and chasing each other around the tank. The males have been chasing the females as well. I do see some fin nipping when this does happen. I don’t know if this is a bacterial infection or it’s just from being excessively nipped.

essentially when you have to be concerned is the "feathery edges".  It's normal for a bit or tears and stuff to happen during breeding behaviors.  It's unfortunate, but normal.  Fin rot is the thing to research and look into as far as the signs and symptoms.  If you're having a constant issue, then you can use aquarium salt, botanicals, and a product like kanaplex as part of your toolkit to fight off any issues.

[Odd Duck]

I’m not really seeing an issue on the fin color as that looks like normal coloration to me, too.  Watch for “melty” looking fin margins, whitish, irregular margins, tears and wounds that don’t heal or get bigger instead of smaller.

[tetra]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:43 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m not really seeing an issue on the fin color as that looks like normal coloration to me, too.  Watch for “melty” looking fin margins, whitish, irregular margins, tears and wounds that don’t heal or get bigger instead of smaller.

I have seen the fins healing from the damage and no discoloration at all.  A few weeks ago I started feeding them Xtreme nano and Hikari sinking wafers and I also thought that’s why they are also getting yellow fins.

also wanted to include that I haven’t lost a single rainbowfish ever sense I got them. But my danios and neon tetras started dropping like flies. I started with 10 zebra danios, 10 neon tetras, and 5 Australian rainbowfish in March-April-ish 2021. And now, I have only 5 zebra danios,  5 Australian rainbowfish, and 1 neon tetra left in quarantine with some bronze Corydoras waiting to go into the 75G tank.

The symptoms I see before the zebra danio/neon tetra die is when they start becoming pale, skinny, lethargic, laying at the bottom, and sometimes they don’t come up to eat. Though most of the time they come up to eat if they are strong enough. I’m wondering if it’s a parasite? A small parasite that only causes them to become skinny a few days before they die. Though I could be wrong.