Cursed Aquarium

[schmofam]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:04 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

This may fix basically all of your issues with these two changes, but as @Mmiller2001 said it's all about one step at a time.  Given the ammonia in the tap, I would highly recommend adding better/more media to your current filtration, increasing filtration, and/or using the off-gas technique.

The picture of the ammonia test is from my tap water. I'll be using one of the techniques you all have suggested to add in water that doesn't have it. That will be my next step. Thanks all for the suggestions.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:36 PM, schmofam said:

That will be my next step. Thanks all for the suggestions.

ORD. Hopefully things improve. Let us know how things change.

[foxfair]

Just curious, whats your nitrate test result with the API test kit (NOT with the test strips)?

your tank has a bit of ammonia, no nitrite and unknown nitrate... I'm leaning to either the cycle just crashed or hasn't completed yet.

Maybe do a complete fish-in cycle again?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/17/2023 at 2:20 PM, schmofam said:

crushed coral

 

Is it Aragonite? There was a mixup here on crushed coral; the aragonite is meant for marine tanks but it was being sold as crushed coral.

 

Your mystery snail is adorable, by the way.  Try to offer a food with calcium and protein as well as vegetable for their shell health and operculum health.  Hikari crab cuisine, Kat's aquatics food, or snail pellets from Crayfish empire. The crayfish empire ones are free as a sample, just pay shipping.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 7/17/2023 at 10:23 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Agreed. In terms of the local water supply. Does your tap test any ammonia or chloramines?

Fortunately, no. At least not in the past 3 years when I’ve tested the tap and I’ve never had an ammonia spike immediately following a water change that would suggest the ammonia came from the tap. 

[schmofam]

On 7/17/2023 at 11:45 PM, foxfair said:

Just curious, whats your nitrate test result with the API test kit (NOT with the test strips)?

It came back at 0.

[schmofam]

On 7/18/2023 at 6:52 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Is it Aragonite? There was a mixup here on crushed coral; the aragonite is meant for marine tanks but it was being sold as crushed coral

Here is what I'm using. https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/crushed-coral-1-pound-bag 
As far as the time frame with issues, I added this to hopefully solve what's going on but to no apparent avail.

[foxfair]

I cannot tell you what you should do, but here is what I would do if I am in this situation.

First, realize that death is unavoidable in fish keeping, no matter how you want them to live or not, sometimes it is just .... nature.

There is another important thing to note: Make sure you only change one thing at a time. If you plan to make A and B and C changes in your mind, pick one only, make it happen and observe the result in a given time (one - two weeks). Yes, it takes time to make changes.

Then, let's take a look at your problematic 10G tank. It doesn't have a huge capacity to hold a lot of water, which means your margin of error is smaller. So I would start by getting a bigger filter if you want to stick with HOBs. Or you could add a sponge filter since you are running air stone anyway, the small or medium size of sponge filters on the aquarium co-op shop are both good. I intend to do over-filtering in every tank I run, why? Because I don't trust the number every manufacturer puts on their boxes. If the filter's description says it fits with 6-10 gallons, then it actually means "best for 6 gallons, not so good for 10 gallons -- workable if you are running a low population tank". Keep in mind that you want 4-5 times of your tank size as the ideal cycles per hour, that is, my minimal expectation of the filtration number would go.

If you suspect that there are some fungi (funguses?!) or bacteria in the tank and cause the death, I would start a treating plan. Before adding any medication, I will use some aquarium salt (figure out the ratio is easy so I wouldn't mention it here). Let it stay in the water for 3 days and do a 50% water change. You can repeat this process twice or even more if you like. Then start treating the medicine. You will need to study and analyze what kind of disease you are aiming to cure / reduce in the tank, then use the right medicine. Note: You won't feed the fish if you start a medical treatment, so the fish's body systems will actually take the medicine in. For me, I am not against using medication, but it is really hard to NOT feed your fish while doing so. So I prefer the more natural way (salt+changing water) myself.

Fouling water: I would use a bare bottom instead of round pebbles for now. Doing so will remove the factor that some fish waste and expired food stuck in small gaps of pebble stones, and it is easier to clean and observe any unwanted waste during the process. I would also test the water parameters (ammonia , nitrite and nitrate) every two days. When changing water, I would only add Seachem Prime to get rid of chlorine and chloramine. One tip: I use a blue painting tap to mark wherever the preferred water level I would want in a tank, so I know how much water I need to remove every time.

Maintenance plan: Use an aquarium note app on the phone, or the old fashion way a real notebook to record when and what you've done to maintain the tank. It's also good to track testing results in the notebook or the app. I would start with a weekly water change, 30% each time. If you want to keep using pebble stones, you'll have to make sure to clean the gravel thoroughly at each time. Add Seachem Prime or whatever other brands of water conditioner with the newer water just added in.

I would keep doing the above steps and wait at least 1-2 months. Let Mother Nature take care of the tank. If you stick with your plan, it should at least have some changes by itself. Have fun and enjoy watching them change over time, it's amazing!!

cheers,

 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/18/2023 at 11:32 AM, schmofam said:

Here is what I'm using. https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/crushed-coral-1-pound-bag

Ok, excellent. Co op does a lot of product testing before selling. 

[Galabar]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:36 PM, schmofam said:

The picture of the ammonia test is from my tap water. I'll be using one of the techniques you all have suggested to add in water that doesn't have it. That will be my next step. Thanks all for the suggestions.

Ok, that is a lot of ammonia (1 ppm+).  That can kill fish.  You mentioned you were using prime for this?  Note that prime will complex with the ammonia for something like 24 hours and then the ammonia will "return" (unless it has been consumed by the biological filter).

With that much ammonia, you might consider an RODI system.

 

[schmofam]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:49 AM, foxfair said:

When changing water, I would only add Seachem Prime to get rid of chlorine and chloramine.

I would love love to have a 20-gallon. That's a big regret. If I switched now my wife would literally kill me... haha

I also use Seachem Stability when doing a water change. Does anybody have thoughts on that?

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:41 PM, schmofam said:

I also use Seachem Stability when doing a water change. Does anybody have thoughts on that?

Not required and you can keep it in the fridge for the time being. There is a date on the bottom of the bottle that gives you a use by date. The idea being that you only need to use it (and it's best to have it available when there are cycling issues, ammonia or nitrite)

The main thing is needing to beef up filtration to handle the ammonia quickly from water changes. Once the filtration is modified or increased, then you can use the stability to quickly boost the biological filter in the tank. You'd pour it directly into the filter itself.

[Jackson]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:03 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

In terms of a typical setup you should be able to use up to a 20G filter without much of an issue

I ran a fluval 30 on my 10g with no issues . Think I burned out the pump . 😭

On 7/18/2023 at 4:41 PM, schmofam said:

I would love love to have a 20-gallon. That's a big regret. If I switched now my wife would literally kill me... haha

I also use Seachem Stability when doing a water change. Does anybody have thoughts on that?

Me too . I was just thinking a betta tank . Then trouble , I started thinking ... 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jackson

[Jackson]

On 7/17/2023 at 8:04 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You should opt for a setup where you will consistently have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrate without fear.

What do you recommend for a set up in a ten ? Was that just filtration or the entirety of the set up ? Very interested in this thread . 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jackson

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:04 AM, Jackson said:

What do you recommend for a set up in a ten ? Was that just filtration or the entirety of the set up ? Very interested in this thread . 

I would use a HoB rated for a 20G aquarium. The one I have personally is a tidal 35 filter, but I do not recommend that for most setups.  If you have any major issues, using lava rock for the hardscape also helps with stability. Whatever HoB you decide to use I would modify it to include sponge and ceramic media.

[schmofam]

Update- I added in a new heater - https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/aquarium-co-op-heater and adjusted the temp to  75 degrees and also started using the small sponge filter - https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/aquarium-co-op-coarse-sponge-filter. I'm waiting for it to cycle before I take out the other filter. I'm doing weekly 25-30% water changes and have been testing the water. I use Prime to neutralize the ammonia in the water (though in the post it seems that others do not think it does this) so for my last water change I decided to use bottled water for refilling the tank. I'm hoping someone on the forum has dealt with high levels of ammonia in their tap water and how they have dealt with water changes.

However... I have lost the fish born in the tank I mentioned at the beginning of this topic and lost another one last night. It was a guppy and didn't show the same signs as the platy did. Instead, it looked like it had a swim bladder issue. Maybe I have been feeding them too much. I'm planning on scaling back the amount of food.

Again, my frustration level and confusion - I saw a video on youtube of this guy going into an abandoned house that he learned had some fish left in tanks with no air or filters and he saved several. At the same time, I'm working my butt off and still have fish dying.

If it were up to me I would buy a new 20-gallon tank to eliminate the possibility that the old owner of the used tank poisoned the fish and I didn't clean it out well enough. A 20-gallon tank would also give me more forgiveness on any water parameters issues. However, my wife has seen my anxiety, frustration, and sadness and would kill me if I did. At this point, I am going to wait until the last fish eventually dies and then give away my snails and shut the tank down.

Edited August 15, 2023 by schmofam

[schmofam]

My fridge filter does not have reverse osmosis but I just thought to test the water anyway. Not sure how exactly how it filters but it has filtered out the ammonia, I'll be using this water for water changes even though it will be a pain to slowly fill up containers. Image tap vs filtered water.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by schmofam

[Sarina]

@schmofam your fridge probably has a catalytic carbon filter in it like mine does. That's likely what's pulling the ammonia out. 

[Galabar]

That's so interesting, both that your tap water seems to have a significant amount of ammonia and that your fridge filter can remove it.  That's cool.

Another option would be a cheap RO system, but it looks like your fridge filter is doing a great job already.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/15/2023 at 2:59 PM, Galabar said:

That's so interesting, both that your tap water seems to have a significant amount of ammonia and that your fridge filter can remove it.  That's cool.

Another option would be a cheap RO system, but it looks like your fridge filter is doing a great job already.

3m has a few under sink designed filtration systems as well.  The main issue with the fridge is going to be capacity.  Yes, it might filter said things out, but adding carbon to your HoB is pretty much equivalent.  Keep the sponge filter in the tank, keep the HoB as well.  In the Hob add carbon.  That's pretty much the only real way, apart from ammonia absorbing chemicals, to counter this.  Because there is ammonia in the tap, the best case is always going to be to condition the water beforehand.  Given smaller setups this is easier and can just be done via off-gassing. 
 

On 8/15/2023 at 11:15 AM, schmofam said:

Again, my frustration level and confusion - I saw a video on youtube of this guy going into an abandoned house that he learned had some fish left in tanks with no air or filters and he saved several. At the same time, I'm working my butt off and still have fish dying.

If it were up to me I would buy a new 20-gallon tank to eliminate the possibility that the old owner of the used tank poisoned the fish and I didn't clean it out well enough. A 20-gallon tank would also give me more forgiveness on any water parameters issues. However, my wife has seen my anxiety, frustration, and sadness and would kill me if I did. At this point, I am going to wait until the last fish eventually dies and then give away my snails and shut the tank down.

Needless to say, I understand and empathize with all of your frustrations.  Unfortunately losing fish is normal and it is part of the process here.  The fish arrive to you highly stressed from a variety of factors.  They go from the breeding facility and the care there can be on the range of amazing down to pretty detrimental.  Genetics can play a role here as well.  Stress from the ammonia in the tapwater is also going to play a role here in added stress.  Oxygenation, dechlorinator, preconditioning the water via off-gassing all play a role here in minimizing those issues. 

Unfortunately/fortunately there are a lot of hobbyists who have ammonia in their tapwater.  Via ammonia or chloramines there are methods to overcome this sort of an issue.  The number one thing you need is to have very strong filtration capacity.  Something like floating plants, fast growing stem plants, etc. can also turn a tank around when you have high ammonia.

Hopefully we can help and get the hobby to an enjoyable point for you. Try to find a solution for the puzzle and maybe it's as simple as letting water sit before it goes into the tank in a holding container of some kind.

What are your test results for everything for the tank itself?

[Galabar]

Request for ACO YouTube video: "Test your tap water!!!" 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:07 PM, Galabar said:

Request for ACO YouTube video: "Test your tap water!!!" 🙂

 

[RennjiDK]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:53 PM, DaveO said:

My main concern after seeing this thread is water parameters. I consider any level of ammonia deadly to fish, if not immediately, long term stress will catch up to the fish. I thought I saw elevated nitrite also. Long term stress on the fish. I would fix those problems and then medicate the tank with the co-op trio to insure you have no parasite or fungal issues. I believe this tank should have a weekly water change schedule to change out 25% to 30% of the water. You may not feel like you overfeeding, but with that many fish plus the snail poop machine, you might be.

Every tank has ammonia present. It's a universal constant. What we need to pay attention to is the concentration. In OPs case, 1ppm is very high from the tap. Anything over a 25% WC at that concentration I'd consider harmful.

On 7/18/2023 at 8:52 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

 

Is it Aragonite? There was a mixup here on crushed coral; the aragonite is meant for marine tanks but it was being sold as crushed coral.

 

Your mystery snail is adorable, by the way.  Try to offer a food with calcium and protein as well as vegetable for their shell health and operculum health.  Hikari crab cuisine, Kat's aquatics food, or snail pellets from Crayfish empire. The crayfish empire ones are free as a sample, just pay shipping.

Aragonite is completely inert. It's fine to use in both FW and marine applications. Keep in mind that most non aquasoil substrates will bind phosphate for a prolonged period until an equilibrium is reached.

On 7/18/2023 at 4:41 PM, schmofam said:

I would love love to have a 20-gallon. That's a big regret. If I switched now my wife would literally kill me... haha

I also use Seachem Stability when doing a water change. Does anybody have thoughts on that?

Dosing nitrifying bacteria during WCs does absolutely nothing. You've already colonized the amount your tank can substain. They do not live in the water column anyways.

Edited August 16, 2023 by RennjiDK

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:18 PM, RennjiDK said:

Aragonite is completely inert.

Aragonite is definitely not inert.  It's used in many cases to buffer up PH by raising KH.

 

Quote

CaribSea Aragonite Aquarium Sand is the ideal substrate for marine, reef or African Cichlid aquariums. It is a pure Aragonite sand collected from pristine ocean waters with no harmful tar, organics or impurities. This aquarium sand has unsurpassed buffering capability and helps maintain a natural pH balance of 8.2 without the constant addition of chemicals. One pound of CaribSea Aragonite Aquarium Sand offers up to 100,000 sq. inches of surface area providing lots of space for housing ammonia, nitrate and nitrite reducing bacteria. CaribSea Aragonite Aquarium Sand is the ideal grain size for reef tanks, fish tanks, plenum systems and refugiums. Elements Provided by Aragonite:Calcium (Ca): 381,000 ppm Carbonate Buffer (CO3): 590,000 ppm Strontium (Sr): 7,390 ppm Magnesium (Mg): 1,050 ppm Molydenum (Mo): 56 ppm Potassium (K): 56 ppm

 

[RennjiDK]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:37 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Aragonite is definitely not inert.  It's used in many cases to buffer up PH by raising KH.

 

 

Sorry, I misremembered and was partially incorrect. CaCo3 stops dissolving and becomes inert around a pH of 7.4. If you're water is much more acidic, say 6.4, it will help to buffer it to that level. It absolutely will not raise it to 8.2 like caribsea claims.