What's spiking my ammonia?

[evonner]

My 10 gallon has no livestock just plants. On 3/23, the ammonia was .25. I did a water change on 3/24, I removed charcoal media and added fluval ammonia remover media. I dosed easy green, prime and excel. I just tested and my ammonia is .50, what could be causing this?

I need to stabilize this tank a quick as I can.

[Ninjoma]

Did you already check your tap water? Was there ever livestock or food in the tank? Could snails have hitchhiked on the plants that are in there?

[Lennie]

decaying plant matter maybe. Why are you dosing excel into a fresh new tank?

[Guppysnail]

You said you removed charcoal?  Was that one of the cartridges and you replaced it with new stuff? A lot of beneficial bacteria was lost when you removed the charcoal cartridge if so. Give it time and it will reestablish. Since you have no livestock I’m not certain the ammonia removal pads are a great course of action. 

[JettsPapa]

I don't know what's causing it, but if there are no fish or invertebrates in the tank may I ask why it's a concern?  The plants should utilize it.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 3/29/2023 at 1:17 AM, evonner said:

My 10 gallon has no livestock just plants. On 3/23, the ammonia was .25. I did a water change on 3/24, I removed charcoal media and added fluval ammonia remover media. I dosed easy green, prime and excel. I just tested and my ammonia is .50, what could be causing this?

I need to stabilize this tank a quick as I can.

If you are using a nutrient rich substrate, that is the most likely culprit.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[evonner]

Ok, ok, let me clarify.  It's not a new tank. It was cycled 10/10/2021. The substrate is stratum capped by large gravel.  Stratum does leech out ammonia in the beginning not two years later, to my knowledge. 

There was fish in there but they are now in my newly 29 gallon.  I moved them on 3/5/23.

I still maintain the 10 gallon because I have more fish coming.

My filter media is custom. Coarse sponge, floss, Bulk sponge, biomax. I only had carbon because I was removing medication that I was treating as a preventative measure in all my tanks. So beneficial bacteria should not be a thing.

Yes, recently I detected ammonia in my tap water (.25 ppm).  There never used to be any in the water but our city community well had an equipment failure and ever since the ammonia is in the tap. However, this has never made the ammonia levels go higher even with livestock in the tank's. This is the reason I have added a media bag of ammonia remover to all tank's. No other tank's are having this problem. 

I'm considering gutting my substrate but idk. My plants are doing poorly thats why I'm giving it so much attention. 

FYI - yesterday's testing, my nitrates were 40 ppm. I'm not concerned. Friday will be my next weekly water change. I will snap some pics of my plants concerned and the tank to see it that helps.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Certain medications, as well as salt, will kill beneficial bacteria. I have had that problem in the past in my quarantine tank. I believe it was Maracyn that I was using at the time. @evonner

Clarification: salt slows bacteria. 

But certain meds can kill it.

if ammonia is coming from the tap, there’s not a lot you can do about it other than try to grow your bacteria colony and use the ammonia removing pads in the filter, etc

I’d recommend a dechlorinator that detoxifies it as well, such as Prime or Fritz Complete, although the detoxification only lasts for 24-48 hrs, and then it’s up to the plants and bacteria from then on. Certain plants such as hornwort are good for sucking harmful things up.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[evonner]

I was treating a potential ICH. I used API Super ick. That was back in February. In my log entries after I transfer the guppy from that tank and put them in the 29 gallon, I cleaned the filter and added Fritz Zyme 7, that was on 3/5/23. On 3/17/23, I had a zero ammonia reading.

I'm using Excel because of an algae problem cropping up since the fish left. I do water changes every Friday and clean algae and gravel vacuum. 

I am floating plant new clippings. The driftwood has a hair like fuzz on it. Attached to it is an Anubias doing poorly. The plant next to the pre-filter is a sword. You may have to blow it up. It used to be bigger but now can barely see it. I just remembered something I added root tabs to the root plants on 3/24/23 but that wouldn't affect ammonia. 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Enough time has passed from when you did meds- I think that can be ruled out? Especially since you tested after.

I don’t have any experience with Excel, so I can’t speak to that.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:40 AM, evonner said:

My filter media is custom. Coarse sponge, floss, Bulk sponge, biomax. I only had carbon because I was removing medication that I was treating as a preventative measure in all my tanks. So beneficial bacteria should not be a thing.

Yes, recently I detected ammonia in my tap water (.25 ppm).  There never used to be any in the water but our city community well had an equipment failure and ever since the ammonia is in the tap. However, this has never made the ammonia levels go higher even with livestock in the tank's. This is the reason I have added a media bag of ammonia remover to all tank's. No other tank's are having this problem. 

This could be an indication of chloramines.  I think the only advice there would be to add a 2x dose of dechlor instead of the standard dose.   The bottles on the back of prime specify:

 

Quote

For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Guppysnail]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:14 PM, evonner said:

I'm using Excel because of an algae problem cropping up since the fish left.

Shot in the dark here because I’ve never used Algecides in tanks. I have heard of folks dosing ponds with algecides and the mass die off of algae causing ammonia spikes. So maybe it’s a good thing and your algae is dying 😃

Edited March 29, 2023 by Guppysnail

[nabokovfan87]

I forgot to mention also, with using dechlor, you would want to verify equipment (filtration and oxygenation) is working well.   Adding an airstone potentially.

[evonner]

@nabokovfan87 , why do you think exceptionally high chloramine concentrations is the cause of what? Ammonia or my poor plants?

 

@Guppysnail Seachem Flourish Excel is not analgecide. It is liquid carbon (like CO2) which controls algae. One of its many benefits. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evonner]

@nabokovfan87 I have a sponge filter with an airstone inside. And an HOB on the other side of the tank. I am equipped to be able to throw another airstone in the tank. Will this help bring the ammonia down. The HOB filter is running good.  I have good outflow and last week cleaned the impeller. Anything else I should look for as far as filters may be cause?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:54 PM, evonner said:

@nabokovfan87 , why do you think exceptionally high chloramine concentrations is the cause of what? Ammonia or my poor plants?

https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/basic-information-about-chloramines-and-drinking-water-disinfection
 

Quote

Chloramines are disinfectants used to treat drinking water. Chloramines are most commonly formed when ammonia is added to chlorine to treat drinking water.

It's from the water treatment plants and shows up on aquarium test strips as ammonia, typically.  You may not have any ammonia in the water, but what you're seeing might actually be chloramine in the water.
 

 

There is also a blog article by fritz which advocates their products, but gives you similar detail as to what is going on behind the scenes, chemically, in the water when you use a dechlor in the water.

 

Quote

Adding chlorine and chloramines to our drinking water is very important to keep people healthy. But the same chemicals which keep us safe can be very toxic to fish. Adding tap water with chlorine or chloramine to a tank can quickly kill off fish. It can also kill off the nitrifying bacteria that keep your tank stable and healthy. So, it is important to remove chlorine and chloramines from your aquarium water. There are several common approaches, and their effectiveness varies depending on whether your local water treatment plant uses chlorine or chloramine. If you don’t know which your water system uses, contact them and ask.

There is one potential problem if your water is treated with chloramine. As stated above, the dechlorinator reacts with the chlorine portion of the chloramine. The chlorine is eliminated, leaving the ammonia free in the water. As you hopefully know, ammonia is toxic to fish, even at low levels. So, if you use a simple dechlorinator that only contains sodium thiosulfate, you are solving one problem (chlorine) and creating a new problem (ammonia).

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by nabokovfan87
added quote from article

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/29/2023 at 3:54 PM, evonner said:

@Guppysnail Seachem Flourish Excel is not analgecide. It is liquid carbon (like CO2) which controls algae. One of its many benefits.

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360050726473-FAQ-I-ve-heard-that-Seachem-Flourish-Excel-is-actually-dangerous-or-not-helpful-to-my-aquarium-plants-Is-that-true-

On 3/29/2023 at 4:00 PM, evonner said:

@nabokovfan87 I have a sponge filter with an airstone inside. And an HOB on the other side of the tank. I am equipped to be able to throw another airstone in the tank. Will this help bring the ammonia down. The HOB filter is running good.  I have good outflow and last week cleaned the impeller. Anything else I should look for as far as filters may be cause?

If you have an airstone already, that should be adequate.  I couldn't see one. my apologies!

In terms of filtration, I just do a deep clean.  Make sure the ceramics aren't clogged and then I go ahead and clean all mechanical filtration to make sure it can filter organics for removal.  If you need to siphon, that may be beneficial as well.

[evonner]

@nabokovfan87.  I have actually came across this research at some point. So, the tank I'm having problems with (10 gal) does consistently run a pH of 8.2. Because this tank is only a 10 gallon, I use buckets. I fill 1 gallon food grade jugs with water and let them air for 24 hrs. I use this water for my water changes with prime. I live in a backwards podunk town and I've searched for the water reports and can't get the information I need or even current ones.  Chloramine is most likely the deal because this was not an issue prior to the well equipment failure. Now according to the video,  I  need a solution because my pH is so high. I need to know if it's Chloramine but how??? Or even how to make it non-toxic with my pH.  I cant naturally change the pH without the expense of RO. I have  test strips that can test for chlorine but only chlorine. I get zero readings in tap and tanks. My 29 gal doesn't have this problem.  But it runs a normal pH of 7.6 and HpH comes in at 7.4. There is no ammonia in that tank and it's stocked and with a lot of fry swimming around. He never said what I can do if it's Chloramine with high pH.  I have fancy guppies being shipped to me very soon. I can put them in my cycled quarantine tank to buy me some time to resolve the issues with the 10 gallon. Any suggestions?? I don't think it's a beneficial bacteria issue cuz I have the nitrates and zero nitrites. In my 29 gallon tank I just a python water changes so it comes right from the tap to the tank. I put a plastic plate in the tank, pour my prime on the plate then fill with the water running onto the plate. It appears to work fine. I will clean the filter and do my water change today (1 day early). So is it safe to assume that the problem is the quality of my water going in and/or filter? You didn't see the air stone cuz its in the sponge filter, lol. I have an extra HOB I could add to the tank and steal a little media from the other filters, just to see if it makes a diff. Sorry for writing a book but I'm baffled past my a**.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/30/2023 at 5:29 AM, evonner said:

Because this tank is only a 10 gallon, I use buckets. I fill 1 gallon food grade jugs with water and let them air for 24 hrs.

This is a great technique, hopefully it's not something you have to do long term.

Essentially, if you have chloramines all you would do is double the dose of your dechlorinator. Nothing excessive or difficult, just that little adjustment. You'd care for the tank like normal and then go ahead and monitor all of your parameters as you normally would.

The most common reason for ammonia is going to be overstocking or a dead fish in the tank, but it can show up via the water before it even gets in the tank. This is just where testing the tap water itself helps to shed some light on what is going on. This is what you did.

What is the ammonia testing in the tank itself?

What about nitrite and nitrate?

On 3/30/2023 at 5:29 AM, evonner said:

So is it safe to assume that the problem is the quality of my water going in and/or filter? You didn't see the air stone cuz its in the sponge filter, lol. I have an extra HOB I could add to the tank and steal a little media from the other filters, just to see if it makes a diff.

I can't say specifically what is causing it, but we can go through each item and verify everything is ok.

First, test the tap water, verify there is ammonia coming in.  That dechlorinator is being used and adequately so for this situation.

Second, verify stocking and that the tank isn't excessively over filled beyond the capacity of the tank (note, tank not filtration)

Third, verify the tank is adequately filtered and that the equipment is working properly.

1. Done, yes ammonia in the tap, just need to adjust dechlorinator use amount.

2. Please let us know

3. Seems to be adequate. Please share more details on setup if you feel it's an issue or concern.

On 3/30/2023 at 5:29 AM, evonner said:

I  need a solution because my pH is so high. I need to know if it's Chloramine but how??? Or even how to make it non-toxic with my pH.  I cant naturally change the pH without the expense of RO.

If the PH in the tank is considerably higher than the tap water (especially after 24 hours of off gasing) then you would look at hardscape in the tank or something causing the tank to buffer the KH/PH up.

The stratum in the tank should lower the PH naturally as well.

[evonner]

I got ya. When I first started the tank everything was great. Then pH rose. I hit all my forums looking for a solution. I was new so I wanted neutral, lol. The stratum is 1 1/2 years old now. It's my understanding that it loses its juju between 1-2 years. There is a piece of driftwood and hardscape stuff that had previously been removing to see if it was raising the pH but it wasn't. Then I tried a mix of bottled RO and tap then decided I'm not going to chase my pH. Live and learn in this hobby. Old tank syndrome was brought up to me but research indicates that my pH would be lowering and swinging, it's not. This is why I mentioned if I should gut the substrate. 

I tested on 3/28 as I don't trust this tank. pH was 8.2, ammonia .50, nitrite 0, nitrate 40, dGH 15, dKH 8. I keep the temp at 78 and there has not been any livestock in the tank since 3/5 and I do waterchanges/clean every Friday. Nothing looks abnormal except I shouldn't have ammonia and the nitrates tell me that waterchange is soon. I'm an Accountant and have to go do a tax return but I'm gonna look on my computer at my logs from the start of this tank and see if I can see something I didn't see before when I was less experienced. I will do some water testing too. Then I will get back to you.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/30/2023 at 6:19 AM, evonner said:

This is why I mentioned if I should gut the substrate. 

Try to siphon it well. Especially under the big gravel it looks like there's a decent bit of waste in one of the photos.

Some white rocks would buffer the water up. I don't know if yours are reactive, they look to be inert to me.

Hopefully the logs can shed some light on the situation!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 3/30/2023 at 9:19 AM, evonner said:

I'm an Accountant

Same, working in industry. I just took FAR. Took BEC in fall. Working on AUD now. Looks like there’s no calcs which is just sad. 😭

Edited March 30, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[evonner]

Ok stupid crazy. Thursday I didn't get to the waterchange cuz I was burnt out after doing a partnership tax return. But I did yesterday. Now my schedule is full water testing then waterchange on all tanks, every Friday. So yesterday I was running the water tests. The 10 gallon had zero ammonia.  Usually when I get an abnormal reading, I re-run the test and meant to, on that ammonia spike but forgot. So now I'm wondering if the test was wrong. But I did gravel vac hard-core.  I actually ended up doing a "more than 50%" waterchange, so I may have reset my nitrogen cycle, lol but it's fine. I have cycled media and FritzZyme 7. There are no fish in there so great opportunity to give it a good vacuuming, right. Right. @nabokovfan87 yes, everything in all my tanks is inert because of my HpH. When you use stratum in the beginning my pH is neutral but it doesn't stay that way as that tank ages. My tap pH is 7.6 and HpH is 7.4, after it aerate for 24 to 48 hours it tests at 8.2 so 8.2 is what I have to work with. So, I'm careful not to add anything that raises pH. I started a 29 gallon tank on 1/7/23. The substrate is stratum in certain areas and eco-complete as top layer throughout. When I started cycling it the pH was 7.0, it took about a month for it to raise to 7.6, now it test at either 7.6 or 8.0, never anything different. It's slowly inching its way up and will cap at 8.2 eventually. My third tank is gravel substrate and no plants, it test consistently at 8.2. Instead of chasing my water parameters,  I choose livestock and plants that like my parameters. I bought some pretty seashells for my 29-gallon but haven't used them yet because I'm still researching the science on whether they will raise my pH. There was something I read that indicates they might not and I think it was because my GH and KH are high but that's just from a failing memory.  Lol.