Sherry Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 I really love looking at all the beautiful Fancy Guppies online… but some of them are expensive in my opinion. What do people do with them? Do they breed true? Can the babies be sold to make back the investment? If a person starts with a male and a few females, after a few generations won’t there be problems with inbreeding? Thank you in advance for answering my newbie questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) On 3/24/2023 at 1:43 AM, Sherry said: few generations won’t there be problems with inbreeding? Well, to be fair, there are already problems with inbreeding with these "pure" breeds, as these species are the result of inbreeding itself. They are generally not as hardy, more prone to diseases and genetically weaker. But inbreeding with the same family members constantly may take it to a further point I believe. Also they are likely to come from the same batch at the first place as well when you get them. So you may end up buying siblings as your starting point too. Also I have seen this resulting in bended spines and some of the fry needed to be euthanised as a result. So yea, not a nice experience. On 3/24/2023 at 1:43 AM, Sherry said: Can the babies be sold to make back the investment? You may contact to your lfs to see if they would be willing to get babies, or may consider rehoming. But your lfs seems far away, and guppies breed like crazy. I'm not sure how much would they make up for the gas price or something 😄 I feel you. I loved how beautiful panda guppies are at the store! They were very adorable. But livebearers scare me with the constant breeding :)) I've kept guppies once. Never again 🤣 Edited March 23, 2023 by Lennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 I raised platys long ago, and at that time my lfs was close. He let me trade my juveniles for food, but now it won’t be that easy. So I’m a little nervous about live bearers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfisher Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Many of the fancy guppies can be hard to breed in numbers. As for them breeding true it’s a process. It takes time to cull out the ones that aren’t pure. For me the last time I got a new strain it took about 18 month to get the a reliable fry I need. This last strain is basically the total opposite of what most people believe about guppies. They have fry in low numbers and very slow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 On 3/24/2023 at 2:00 AM, rockfisher said: Many of the fancy guppies can be hard to breed in numbers. As for them breeding true it’s a process. It takes time to cull out the ones that aren’t pure. For me the last time I got a new strain it took about 18 month to get the a reliable fry I need. This last strain is basically the total opposite of what most people believe about guppies. They have fry in low numbers and very slow. You mean just the babies that carry the genetics you desire to have right? Or they don't breed enough in general? Otherwise having lots of babies culled means lots of babies in another tank AaAaAaAaaa so many babies dude 🤣 scary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 Years ago we wanted to raise papered goats. The idea was to have two unrelated bucks, and some does not related to either of them… then we were to cross breed I think every other generation (there was a chart to follow - I don’t remember exactly anymore.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) On 3/24/2023 at 2:15 AM, Sherry said: Years ago we wanted to raise papered goats. The idea was to have two unrelated bucks, and some does not related to either of them… then we were to cross breed I think every other generation (there was a chart to follow - I don’t remember exactly anymore.) I am by no means experienced in genetics and I have no degree or career on this area. But as a person who has been keeping so many animals since childhood, from chicken to a guineapig, from pigeon to a horse, etc., I think generally, crossbreeds do much better than pure breeds. There have been times I've managed to observe the opposite as well, like one of my stray cats have been the one that struggled the most to reach a healthy life but there have been many issues behind this, being not related to breed genetics really. Usually, trying to break the transfer of collective genetic diseases over and over again is nice. So is trying to stay away from the genes that affect the quality of life of animals, in my opinion. Edited March 23, 2023 by Lennie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfisher Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 The ones I’m talk about have few babies and it takes time to weed out and poor genetics. Once I finish with genetics I’ll start on breeding the one that produce the most. Now I don’t think I got the group to start. But the slow and low births rates makes this one hard. Now some some fancy guppies are cake and you get tons of clean(genetically), fast reproducing and those you can actually make money. On 3/23/2023 at 7:21 PM, Lennie said: I am by no means experienced in genetics and I have no degree or career on this area. But as a person who has been keeping so many animals since childhood, from chicken to a guineapig, from pigeon to a horse, etc., I think generally, crossbreeds do much better than pure breeds. There have been times I've managed to observe the opposite as well, like one of my stray cats have been the one that struggled the most to reach a healthy life but there have been many issues behind this, being not related to breed genetics really. Usually, trying to break the transfer of collective genetic diseases over and over again is nice. So is trying to stay away from the genes that affect the quality of life of animals, in my opinion. Mut guppies can have some of the cools colors and can be very hardy. I have a pond of mut guppies. I can sell them like that or when I have to many they go as feeders. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 On 3/24/2023 at 2:24 AM, rockfisher said: Mut guppies can have some of the cools colors and can be very hardy. I have a pond of mut guppies. I can sell them like that or when I have to many they go as feeders. Yea I assume so! Can we accept the babies of mutt guppies in your pond as cross breeds at that point? they are really a joy to watch, so many colors, just like you said! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfisher Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 @Lennie I think so. There have been so many generations and of several varieties. I guess you could say that that population is limited. I definitely could not take some out and sell as anything really, mixed guppies I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineSong Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) On 3/23/2023 at 6:43 PM, Sherry said: I really love looking at all the beautiful Fancy Guppies online… but some of them are expensive in my opinion. What do people do with them? Do they breed true? Can the babies be sold to make back the investment? If a person starts with a male and a few females, after a few generations won’t there be problems with inbreeding? Thank you in advance for answering my newbie questions. I have bought fancy guppies online to breed them, as well as to enjoy having them myself. Here are my answers to your questions: 1. One strain I bought does breed true--all the babies look like the parents. I've raised about four generations of these and all are well. Another strain I bought produced many babies with very curved spines and some babies did not look a lot like the parents. I stopped breeding them due to the curved spines. Some traits are more stable than others. If you are buying pink, purple, or green guppies for example, expect that their babies will not breed true--there will be some variations. Even in strains who do breed true, some males will have better coloration, fin length etc. 2.Yes, the babies can be sold to earn back the expense, but it's unlikely you can sell all the offspring for the same price you paid. I just sell my extras on Facebook groups or craigslist and even at $4 to $7 per fish, the cost of a $85 dollar breeding trio will be recouped in one fry drop. I do not sell my fancy guppies in breeding pairs or trios. I sell the males, and I sell them with random/mutt female guppies if people want females too. None of the people who buy my guppies have cared whether they are a pure strain or mutt guppies and my mutt guppy males sell for the same price as my fancies. If you are planning to sell offspring to a pet store, it might matter to them whether you are bringing in a consistent color/type vs. random mutts, so that would be different. 3. Inbreeding is how you get pure strains and consistent strains. Problems that come from inbreeding can be corrected by outbreeding. If I wanted to correct a problem in my ginga guppy line, for example, I could order a ginga pair or trio from someone in another state and add them to my mix. I've bred blue star endlers, ginga sulphureus guppies, red double swordtail guppies, and mutt guppies. The mutts have been the most fun by a long shot--so fun to see how they turn out. Edited March 24, 2023 by PineSong Added photo of mutt guppies :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeD Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 On 3/24/2023 at 5:12 PM, PineSong said: 3. Inbreeding is how you get pure strains and consistent strains. Problems that come from inbreeding can be corrected by outbreeding. If I wanted to correct a problem in my ginga guppy line, for example, I could order a ginga pair or trio from someone in another state and add them to my mix. I think there are also certain traits that go well together, right? So while two strains may look different, they are good for outcrossing and then dispersing the fry back into their respective phenotypes. I have no idea which ones, I just thought I saw that in a guppy genetics overview video once. I'll try to find that, but I was wondering if you've ever tried it. I would imagine that to really get that right, each strain would have to have several tanks/lines so that they're not diluting their A grade tank by putting mixed fry in too soon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineSong Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 On 3/24/2023 at 6:25 PM, BrettD said: I think there are also certain traits that go well together, right? So while two strains may look different, they are good for outcrossing and then dispersing the fry back into their respective phenotypes. I have no idea which ones, I just thought I saw that in a guppy genetics overview video once. I'll try to find that, but I was wondering if you've ever tried it. I would imagine that to really get that right, each strain would have to have several tanks/lines so that they're not diluting their A grade tank by putting mixed fry in too soon. Nope, never tried it. I don’t have many tanks or the patience to do careful breeding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The endler guy Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 On 3/23/2023 at 6:43 PM, Sherry said: I really love looking at all the beautiful Fancy Guppies online… but some of them are expensive in my opinion. What do people do with them? Do they breed true? Can the babies be sold to make back the investment? If a person starts with a male and a few females, after a few generations won’t there be problems with inbreeding? Thank you in advance for answering my newbie questions. there was actually was a very interesting study with endlers in pools over a long period of time, the study showed that there was not a problem with in breeding even with a small parent generation. it is thought that since female endlers can "store" male gamete packets, and get this (this part is very interesting) the females attach a proteins to each packet, the less desirable male the more of the proteins; this causes the gametes to sink. the females also can flush out the heavier gamete packets getting rid of poor mates. because females (weather consciously or unconsciously) know which male is their siblings and attach the proteins to siblings gametes, effectively stopping inbreeding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty o Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 you have to work hard line breeding to really worry about inbreeding. get a couple generations going in a tank, and there will be lots of cross matching genetics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfisher Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) I’m working on a purple from a few of my blues. It is super hard to isolate and get them to breed more purple. I don’t think that I’ll ever get only purple. I try to get were I get more purple than blue. I’m close. I’m problem is selling females. I do sell trios and often add extra females just because it makes customers happy that they are getting extra and I only have so much room. One of the stores I sell to made a good deal so I only sell the purple there. Just so he is the only one or the only one that has purple guppies regularly. @PineSongis right the muts are the most fun. Edited March 25, 2023 by rockfisher 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherry Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share Posted March 25, 2023 On 3/24/2023 at 11:02 PM, rockfisher said: @PineSongis right the muts are the most fun. I kind of thought so -- the constant surprise, right? In my apartment I am limited to one aquarium, max size 20 gallons, but I think no one will notice if I use 1 gallon containers for grow out "tanks". ;-) I read some info on breeding guppies from Diana Walstad and I think she recommends something like 9 tanks. I have been drooling over the same guppies Cory says are the best and since I live in northern Minnesota, I may take a trip to the Twin Cities to see family and drag them to the guppy store. Ha! But the price is definitely a stumbling block. I think I will start with mutts from the closer big box store and think about whether I want to go further. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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