Trying to cycle a new tank for a month but no success

[jodirren]

I bought a new 20 gal tank from a chain pet store for my kids for Christmas 1.5 months ago. I knew absolutely nothing about aquariums but the chain pet store employee told me to let the tank sit for two days after getting it all setup. I put in 1” of substrate, used the water conditioner as directed, installed the heater and filter, and let it set for two days. After duly following what I was told, I took my very excited kids to said chain pet store and we picked out 4 mollies that looked healthy and a couple plants and a piece of driftwood. We let the bag of the fish sit in the tank water for 20 minutes, then released the fish.

To the horror of my kids, 8 hrs later, all 4 mollies were belly-up dead. I immediately went back to the chain pet store with a water sample, they did a dipstick test and said everything looked good. They refunded my money for the fish, talked about this whole “cycling” thing, but didn’t really have a good explanation of what happened. I decided to do some research and put buying more fish on hold.

Fast forward to now: I’ve spent 1.5 months studying the nitrogen cycle and learning all about how to start a new tank (when I bought this tank, I had *no* idea how involved this would be!). I bought another 4 plants from Aquarium Co-op a month ago and planted them. Not long after the fish died, I went to Ocean Aquarium, a local independent aquarium store here in San Francisco, and the owner told me I needed much more substrate (4-6”) to serve as a home for bacteria and that I needed to let the tank sit for a month to start the cycle. He sold me substrate, some Microbe Lift Special Blend, Seachem Neutral Regulator, Seachem Discuss buffer, and told me to dose with them in small amounts daily and then in a month I can get fish. His planted tanks, which he claims to never have changed the water in, looked great, so I’ve duly followed his directions. In addition, I've been occasionally adding some Seachem Flourish and Flourish Excel for the plants. I’ve changed the water a couple times to 30-50%. I changed the filter once about a month ago because it was clogged (and have since learned I can just rinse it out in aquarium water rather than replacing it).

Summary: for the last month, the tank has just been sitting with plants that seem to be doing fairly well and no fish except the water has gone completely brown with brown algae/diatom (though some of the brown may be due to tannins from the couple small pieces of driftwood I have, I can see the powdery brown stuff all over everything). I've attached a picture of how my tank looks today. I also bought the API Freshwater Master Kit and have been testing my water once a week for the past month. And here’s the thing: I’ve never gotten anything but 0 ppm for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. My ph is in the mid 7’s. But basically, it seems like my tank won’t cycle. I’ve been using the bacteria starter from Ocean Aquarium as well as one from the chain pet store, and I’ve tried adding some flakes of fish food in hopes their decomposing would start the nitrogen cycle. But I can’t get any of the 3 chemicals of the nitrogen cycle to read. I’ve got the light on the tank on a timer that provides about 10 hrs of light a day. So to be honest, after hours and hours of research, I feel like I’m doing everything right enough that my tank should have started cycling.

So here are my questions to this forum that, in all my research, I can’t find answers to:

• Why did my fish die in 8 hrs? I’ve since learned all about New Tank Syndrome, but that sounds like it usually causes the fish to slowly die over days or weeks, not hours. And to be honest, there are tons of people out there who buy fish tanks and do what I did and don’t have dead fish in hours. I get that these people may not be able to keep fish alive for months, but having fish die in hours seems what out of the normal.
• Why isn’t my tank cycling, i.e. why do my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings continue to show 0 ppm? I’ve followed the API testing kit directions to the T, including vigorously shaking the nitrate solutions for as long as directed. Could it be that the whole test kit is somehow bad? That seems unlikely to me. But everything I’ve read online says my tank should have started cycling by now.
• The water is very brown and cloudy (see attached pic), with the brown algae “powder” on everything, but should I just go ahead and get some fish and hopefully just getting more aquatic creatures in there will provide some better balance?

Thanks for your time, and looking forward to any suggestions.

Jonathan

[TOtrees]

I'm sorry you're having this difficulty. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum, so please be aware that you won't get just one answer or recommendation. And it might take some time to figure out what to change to get you where you want to be. But we will! 🙂

I'd start by simplifying. Do you really need to change/modify the water from what comes out of your tap (neutral regulator and discus buffer)? Help us understand why you're going that route, and we'll respond if it's necessary, or if maybe you've been oversold a few items. 

One question I might be able to answer (suggest an answer) is why your water tested fine on day 2, when your mollies died. Most dipsticks don't test for ammonia. My guess would be i) there may have been ammonia in the tank and ii) you didn't acclimate the fish for long enough. Acclimating isn't just floating the bag, it's gradually introducing water from the tank to the bag, and removing some at the same time, so over the course of say 30 mins to an hour, the water in the bag goes from being 100% what came from the store, to 100% what's in your tank. The bigger the difference between your tank water and the store's water, the longer you should acclimate. 

The brown color of your water is from the driftwood, and won't harm your future fish friends. 

Can you share some current water tests? What numbers are you getting for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH? Can you share pics of the tubes with the reagents in them? 

Neutral regulator does include a dechlorinator, I wonder if that's hiding or masking ammonia in your tank? There are folk here who have more knowledge in that area, maybe they can answer that. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by TOtrees

[ColBud]

Could the tank have been contaminated from new? Did you clean any of the equipment or decorations prior to putting into service? GL

[Miranda Marie]

I see you said you added a "few" flakes of fish food, but how many and how often? The Bacteria that makes the nitrogen cycle work has the same need as all living things: it must have food. Without a consistent source of ammonia being added, you won't see the tank cycle. Have you added fish food to the tank regularly, or just once or twice? It could be as simple as you not adding enough ammonia to get the bacteria colony going.

Edit to add: Plants use up some ammonia and nitrate, so even if you're getting *small* numbers of those, the plants may be using them up before you can see it on a test.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Miranda Marie

[mynameisnobody]

@jodirren You could always purchase a seeded sponge or sponge filter from ocean aquarium and squeeze it into your new aquarium. It’ll look a bit messy but that’s basically an instant cycle, then I’d slowly add fish. This is one of your options. Truth is, once you have 1 aquarium cycled, then it’s much easier to start new projects because you house the beneficial bacteria via other aquariums. Good luck 

[AndEEss]

Your tank isn’t cycled because you didn’t add enough ammonia to feed it. 

Unless you get significant ammonia, as in 1ppm+, you aren’t adding enough to get detectable nitrate at the end. Additionally, you have to continually feed your BB.

 

 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Agreed with the others here. You need ammonia to be present in order to feed the bacteria colonies. If you plan on letting fish food rot to produce that ammonia you should feed the tank just like you would if there was fish in it. If you’re looking for a different ammonia source, I have used the Dr. Tim’s ammonia product with good results when I was setting up my first tanks. 
 

Also, remember that you’re trying to replicate nature, and that takes time! If you enjoy your tank and have it for years to come the couple of months it takes to cycle will diminish to a blip on the timeline. 
 

Best of luck, and let us know how we can help. The community on here is rad and simply wants to help others. Good luck!

[jodirren]

Thanks for the excellent (and quick) responses. A couple responses ...

On 2/10/2023 at 2:41 PM, TOtrees said:

I'd start by simplifying. Do you really need to change/modify the water from what comes out of your tap (neutral regulator and discus buffer)? Help us understand why you're going that route, and we'll respond if it's necessary, or if maybe you've been oversold a few items. 

My understanding is that my tap water (San Francisco) has chloramine added and that will prevent the beneficial bacteria from growing, so conditioning the water is necessary. I actually use some water conditioner from Imaginarium when I add water. But, again, I've not done many water changes: 1x 50% and 2x 25% so this has come into play too much. However, per the owner at Ocean Aquarium, I've been adding tiny amounts of Neutral Regulator and Discus Buffer every couple days (he told me to do daily but I haven't been). To be honest, that's the only reason I'm adding those two products. Honestly, I don't know that it's necessary and I remember the day I came home with all these products I thought, "Did I just get scammed?". I also try to add the Special Blend bacteria daily, but it's more like every 2-3 days.

 

On 2/10/2023 at 2:41 PM, TOtrees said:

The brown color of your water is from the driftwood, and won't harm your future fish friends. 

Yeah, there's no doubt that some is tannins, but when I stir up the water (say from gravel vaccing), all this junk gets stirred up and really clouds the water brown. And this brown powder is also growing all over everything. I'm pretty sure most of the brown cloudiness is this stuff, which I assume to be brown algae.

 

 

On 2/10/2023 at 2:41 PM, TOtrees said:

Can you share some current water tests? What numbers are you getting for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH? Can you share pics of the tubes with the reagents in them? 

Per my original post, they all read 0, nada, nothing. The nitrate and ammonia are bright yellow just like the card shows for 0 ppm.

 

On 2/10/2023 at 3:04 PM, ColBud said:

Could the tank have been contaminated from new? Did you clean any of the equipment or decorations prior to putting into service? GL

You know, I did clean the inside of the tank with glass cleaner when I first took it out of the box. But after I wiped it off with a clean rag really good. I guess there could have been some residue, but it seems like it would be very diluted in a 20 gallon tank. And wouldn't the carbon filter I've been using remove that over the 2 days I let the tank sit?

 

On 2/10/2023 at 3:59 PM, Miranda Marie said:

I see you said you added a "few" flakes of fish food, but how many and how often? The Bacteria that makes the nitrogen cycle work has the same need as all living things: it must have food. Without a consistent source of ammonia being added, you won't see the tank cycle. Have you added fish food to the tank regularly, or just once or twice? It could be as simple as you not adding enough ammonia to get the bacteria colony going.

Yeah, I only did it once or twice. I added literally 3-4 flakes the first time and then a good "pinch" of maybe 20 flakes the 2nd time a few days later. I didn't do it after because I figured all the plants in the tank, which have some dying leafs, would create decomposing material for bacteria. But I guess decomposing plant matter doesn't count?

On 2/10/2023 at 4:18 PM, Pepere said:

when doing a fishless cycle, I like to add a known quantity of Ammonia to the tank and then test every few days and watch the cycle progress.  There are a number of products out there.  Fritz Fishless Fuel, Dr Tims has one, there are likely others.  In essence you count the numbers of drops per gallon of aquarium water.  Wait for it to disperse, and test and lo and behold you see that the test results says you have awfully close to what the instructions said you would have.

If there was never any ammonia in the tank, it is hard to cycle it as you need to grow bacteria that feed on the ammonia and make nitrites so a second colony of bacteria can feed on that to turn it in to nitrites.  

yes, ghost feeding, ie adding flakes of fish food will decompose and make ammonia, but, you dont really know how much ammonia was added.

Okay, I'm going to start adding fish flakes regularly. I'll look into maybe getting ammonia explicitly. There is definitely a consensus here that I'm not getting any ammonia to start the cycle. But I thought decomposing plant matter would start that process but I guess not?

[JessLynne7]

Here is my unpopular opinion- remember there are many ways to keep fish. No one way is right. The way that works for you is the right way. You need ammonia to start the cycle. I am a fish in cycle type of person and have started 8 tanks that way. Another unpopular opinion but use a neratite snail to get ammonia started. They also like to eat algae so added bonus. To speed it along get a good bacteria starter - I use dr Tim’s and tetra safe start. Tetra is a lot cheaper and my goto. I use dr Tim’s when I have the money. Tetra even tho un popular actually lists ingredients unlike other brands. Stability is a joke. Sorry people- no luck for me with it at all. It was a waste of my money. Prime is great but stability- no go for me. Stock slow w some good hardy fish. Don’t over feed. You got this.

ps the brown color to the left water is tannins from your drift wood - won’t hurt the fish

Edited February 11, 2023 by JessLynne7

[Miranda Marie]

On 2/10/2023 at 7:45 PM, jodirren said:

Yeah, I only did it once or twice. I added literally 3-4 flakes the first time and then a good "pinch" of maybe 20 flakes the 2nd time a few days later. I didn't do it after because I figured all the plants in the tank, which have some dying leafs, would create decomposing material for bacteria. But I guess decomposing plant matter doesn't count?

Plant matter will cause a *small* amount of ammonia, but not much at all and what little it does is spread out over a very long time. It's simply not enough to jumpstart a cycle, in my experience. The plants will actually uptake more ammonia and nitrate than they produce, thus starving out the bacteria.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:16 PM, jodirren said:

Why isn’t my tank cycling, i.e. why do my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings continue to show 0 ppm? I’ve followed the API testing kit directions to the T, including vigorously shaking the nitrate solutions for as long as directed. Could it be that the whole test kit is somehow bad? That seems unlikely to me. But everything I’ve read online says my tank should have started cycling by now.

Verify things with a second test method. That's where I'd start.

Alright. If I was in your shoes there's a few things I would do. This is specifically what I recommend for any tank that has ANY cycling issues.

Full Reset.....

A. Siphon the graven well, drain the water in the tank. Rinse everything in the filter, clean it thoroughly. Your filter SHOULD NOT be simply a cartridge. There's more on this later.

B. Fill the tank with water and add dechlor and an air stone. Let it run while you figure the rest out. This is the bare minimum of what you need to cycle a tank.

C. Every few days add some food or ammonia. After one or two weeks, change water like you normally would. Keep adding food, keep changing water. Once a week, test things to see how the filtration is doing.

....

Filtration. Please send full details and photos of how it's setup. This is very likely exactly what's wrong and why you have had cycle issues, apart from time.

The water is very likely brown from phosphates and rotting plant matter, food, and wood. Tannins are perfectly fine and healthy. The real question is about PH, KH, and GH. Are they good for the fish you're interested in?

[Mmiller2001]

I normally don't comment on posts like this but I'm pretty agitated with the bridge you have been sold. Personally, I wouldn't go back there.

1. Using Sechem Neutral Regulator and Discuss Buffer together? Wow! If you go on Seachem's website and look up Neutral Regulator, it clearly states don't use it with a planted tank. The reason why is it's Phosphate based and will dump large amounts of Phosphates into the tank.

2. Why use any of them? Did they tell you what your GH and KH were? Why didn't they just sell you a GH and KH test kit which is way cheaper then both those buffers?

3. 4 to 6 inches of substrate? Huh? 3 inches max. Hopefully they didn't sell you crushed coral.

4. Wait a month? It takes around 3 months to cycle a tank with out cheating the cycle. Example, using an already cycled sponge to jump start the cycle.

The TL/DR recommendation

Get the API GH/KH test and let us know the readings of your tap water. Flourish is not a complete fertilizer and will not support your plant growth. You need a complete fertilizer and dose per directions. Dechlorinate the water before it goes into the tank. Don't replace your filter sponges or cartridges. Only rinse them in dechlorinated water and reuse them. Indefinitely. Try to get them without carbon in them. After we know the GH and KH, then decisions can be made on proper fish choice and if products need to be used to alter water Hardness and Carbonates. Finally, buy more plants, you are looking for a minimum of 70% of the substrate planted. Get some Cypts to help you out. More plants are your best defense against many problems when starting a new tank.

Let's us know the GH and KH of your tap water as soon as you can. And get an all in one fertilizer and start using it immediately so those plants can get fed.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Mmiller2001

[Flipper]

On 2/10/2023 at 4:16 PM, jodirren said:

I bought a new 20 gal tank from a chain pet store for my kids for Christmas 1.5 months ago. I knew absolutely nothing about aquariums but the chain pet store employee told me to let the tank sit for two days after getting it all setup. I put in 1” of substrate, used the water conditioner as directed, installed the heater and filter, and let it set for two days. After duly following what I was told, I took my very excited kids to said chain pet store and we picked out 4 mollies that looked healthy and a couple plants and a piece of driftwood. We let the bag of the fish sit in the tank water for 20 minutes, then released the fish.

To the horror of my kids, 8 hrs later, all 4 mollies were belly-up dead. I immediately went back to the chain pet store with a water sample, they did a dipstick test and said everything looked good. They refunded my money for the fish, talked about this whole “cycling” thing, but didn’t really have a good explanation of what happened. I decided to do some research and put buying more fish on hold.

Fast forward to now: I’ve spent 1.5 months studying the nitrogen cycle and learning all about how to start a new tank (when I bought this tank, I had *no* idea how involved this would be!). I bought another 4 plants from Aquarium Co-op a month ago and planted them. Not long after the fish died, I went to Ocean Aquarium, a local independent aquarium store here in San Francisco, and the owner told me I needed much more substrate (4-6”) to serve as a home for bacteria and that I needed to let the tank sit for a month to start the cycle. He sold me substrate, some Microbe Lift Special Blend, Seachem Neutral Regulator, Seachem Discuss buffer, and told me to dose with them in small amounts daily and then in a month I can get fish. His planted tanks, which he claims to never have changed the water in, looked great, so I’ve duly followed his directions. In addition, I've been occasionally adding some Seachem Flourish and Flourish Excel for the plants. I’ve changed the water a couple times to 30-50%. I changed the filter once about a month ago because it was clogged (and have since learned I can just rinse it out in aquarium water rather than replacing it).

Summary: for the last month, the tank has just been sitting with plants that seem to be doing fairly well and no fish except the water has gone completely brown with brown algae/diatom (though some of the brown may be due to tannins from the couple small pieces of driftwood I have, I can see the powdery brown stuff all over everything). I've attached a picture of how my tank looks today. I also bought the API Freshwater Master Kit and have been testing my water once a week for the past month. And here’s the thing: I’ve never gotten anything but 0 ppm for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. My ph is in the mid 7’s. But basically, it seems like my tank won’t cycle. I’ve been using the bacteria starter from Ocean Aquarium as well as one from the chain pet store, and I’ve tried adding some flakes of fish food in hopes their decomposing would start the nitrogen cycle. But I can’t get any of the 3 chemicals of the nitrogen cycle to read. I’ve got the light on the tank on a timer that provides about 10 hrs of light a day. So to be honest, after hours and hours of research, I feel like I’m doing everything right enough that my tank should have started cycling.

So here are my questions to this forum that, in all my research, I can’t find answers to:

• Why did my fish die in 8 hrs? I’ve since learned all about New Tank Syndrome, but that sounds like it usually causes the fish to slowly die over days or weeks, not hours. And to be honest, there are tons of people out there who buy fish tanks and do what I did and don’t have dead fish in hours. I get that these people may not be able to keep fish alive for months, but having fish die in hours seems what out of the normal.
• Why isn’t my tank cycling, i.e. why do my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings continue to show 0 ppm? I’ve followed the API testing kit directions to the T, including vigorously shaking the nitrate solutions for as long as directed. Could it be that the whole test kit is somehow bad? That seems unlikely to me. But everything I’ve read online says my tank should have started cycling by now.
• The water is very brown and cloudy (see attached pic), with the brown algae “powder” on everything, but should I just go ahead and get some fish and hopefully just getting more aquatic creatures in there will provide some better balance?

Thanks for your time, and looking forward to any suggestions.

Jonathan

@jodirren  Just an observation.  In the picture of your tank, I can see sunlight coming through your blinds.  Sunlight on a tank can cause algae problems.  I would keep the blinds closed, although I don't know what room your tank is in.  I have mine in a bedroom so I keep my blinds closed at all times.  Hopefully others will put their 2 cents in about an aquarium close to a window.  Good luck!  You got some very good tips from the community. 

[jodirren]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:41 PM, Flipper said:

@jodirren  Just an observation.  In the picture of your tank, I can see sunlight coming through your blinds.  Sunlight on a tank can cause algae problems.  I would keep the blinds closed, although I don't know what room your tank is in.  I have mine in a bedroom so I keep my blinds closed at all times.  Hopefully others will put their 2 cents in about an aquarium close to a window.  Good luck!  You got some very good tips from the community. 

@Flipper Yes, I actually was thinking the same thing after I've noticed that, exactly as you said, I get lots of algae only in the part of the tank that's in the sun. This is a temporary setup and the new location will be out of the sun. Thanks for affirmig this.

[Flipper]

On 5/13/2023 at 6:48 PM, jodirren said:

@Flipper Yes, I actually was thinking the same thing after I've noticed that, exactly as you said, I get lots of algae only in the part of the tank that's in the sun. This is a temporary setup and the new location will be out of the sun. Thanks for affirmig this.

Hey, we all have to stick together!  That's what this forum is all about.  Sharing and caring and of course, fish keeping.  🐟

[Galabar]

How has the tank progressed since February?