Gentle & No Lid Clean-up Team!🦐🐌🐟

[Lennie]

Hey everyone!

Wishing you a great week.

I would like to hear some opinions/experiences about clean up crew for the new tank of mine.

The tank size and water parameters:

-33g/125Liters, 50cm cube

-No lid on top, Aquaclear 50 HOB, with a heater

-Around 8.2ph, 20kh, 7 gh(tho my tap water dropped to less than 3 lately, I'm dosing equilibrium)

Lots of plants, water lettuce and frogbit recently added as floaters.

As some of you have already seen, the pic of the tank from last week:

I'm trying to find a good clean-up crew for this new tank. I'm definitely keeping neocaridina shrimp. I personally had success with orange sakuras in my other tank with gourami, corys, L199 and rummynoses. So I've decided to go with bloodymarys this time, and let them settle for a while before fish go in.

I don't want any digging action that may push all aquasoil to the front side of the tank where there is a sand or uproot the plants, and any jumpers/escape artists as there is no lid. I know some people find nerites to be escape artists, but I've never seen them escaping in my tanks before, I've been keeping 6 in different no lid tanks without any problems. I may decide to be safe and maybe don't go for them this time . My lfs keeps them without lid as well actually.

 

The list my LFS has for potential clean-up crew members for this tank size are as follows:

• They have pgymys, orange venezuelas, albinos, bronze, paleatus, juliis, napoensis and pandas from corys.
• Other than corys:

          ottos, kuhlis, snails, SAE, panda garras, borneos, Hara jerdoni, clown pleco and bristlenose!

GREEN: Sounds like a good idea to me!🙂

ORANGE: I'm not sure if it is a good idea😶

RED: That's a no for me.😐

 

There is already lots of decaying plant matter but also good growth from last week since the pic has been taken.

*10 Bloodymary colony is definitely going in! Waiting for more biofilm and decaying catappa leaf.

Maybe something like 1 panda garra+ 1 borneo, 10 shrimp+ 1-2 snails+ pygmy corys.

Q's:

1- Would panda corys/kuhlis disturb the substrate a lot while sifting? My sterbais does a lot while my pygmys are super gentle.

2-Would panda garra enjoy frodo stone, or can it cause any damage as it is not really a smooth rock? I know they love rocks. Also are they safe with adult shrimp?

3- What would you combine based on your experience?

P.S: not planning to add any agressive centerpiece fish or the ones that may potentially try to hurt the adult shrimps. Gonna be a peaceful community tank!

 

Would love to hear your opinions.

Many thanks in advance!

 

 

 

@nabokovfan87 here is the tag I've talked about. Would love to hear at least about panda corys whenever you have some time!🙃

Edited January 30, 2023 by Lennie

[Theplatymaster]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:50 PM, Lennie said:

2-Would panda garra enjoy frodo stone, or can it cause any damage as it is not really a smooth rock? I know they love rocks. Also are they safe with adult shrimp?

as long as its not sharp it should be safe. they should not eat adult shrimp, but make sure there is enough food for the shrimp as panda garras are agressive eaters.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, Lennie said:

I'm trying to find a good clean-up crew for this new tank. I'm definitely keeping neocaridina shrimp. I personally had success with orange sakuras in my other tank with gourami, corys, L199 and rummynoses. So I've decided to go with bloodymarys this time, and let them settle for a while before fish go in.

I don't want any digging action that may push all aquasoil to the front side of the tank where there is a sand or uproot the plants, and any jumpers/escape artists as there is no lid. I know some people find nerites to be escape artists, but I've never seen them escaping in my tanks before, I've been keeping 6 in different no lid tanks without any problems. I may decide to be safe and maybe don't go for them this time . My lfs keeps them without lid as well actually.

 

The list my LFS has for potential clean-up crew members for this tank size are as follows:

• They have pgymys, orange venezuelas, albinos, bronze, paleatus, juliis, napoensis and pandas from corys.
• Other than corys:

          ottos, kuhlis, snails, SAE, panda garras, borneos, Hara jerdoni, clown pleco and bristlenose!

GREEN: Sounds like a good idea to me!🙂

ORANGE: I'm not sure if it is a good idea😶

RED: That's a no for me.😐

Not sure why you don't want any Otos, but the thing to keep in mind is that you have shrimp, so that is your cleanup crew.  That is what they do...

Adding in a clown (or two) would give mulm, which will in turn feed the shrimp as well.

Any other stocking would depend on temp and depend on what your goal is for the shrimp.  If you're keeping it as a shrimp+snail tank, that's one method but just beware of water issues because of snails and the amount of food needed.  I do think clowns would give you what you need (and avoid the spots on the nice wood!), but that is just me and my slight bias towards enjoying my clown plecos.

I don't think you need to add corydoras here, you can, but do not need to.  Smaller would be best, avoid the bigger ones, pick something you enjoy visually.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, Lennie said:

1- Would panda corys/kuhlis disturb the substrate a lot while sifting? My sterbais does a lot while my pygmys are super gentle.

You have rocks in there, but yes... it will get mixed a bit.  Having smaller rocks in-between the bigger ones would help to keep that separation.  Pandas would want cover, generally and this is an open tank.  Not an issue, but just something to note.  They generally won't wish to be out in the open, but they will eventually get comfortable enough to hang out in the sand, especially on the right side away from the front glass and once the plants grow outward.
 

On 1/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, Lennie said:

2-Would panda garra enjoy frodo stone, or can it cause any damage as it is not really a smooth rock? I know they love rocks. Also are they safe with adult shrimp?

probably won't do anything either way.  The garra has a mouth that helps with swimming and grazing.  Similar to SAE, RTBS, Rainbow sharks, etc.  They can graze on pretty much anything, even lava rock which is notoriously sharp.  If you have one that acts more like a hillstream loach, they will likely pick a large flat surface as their territory.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 1:50 PM, Lennie said:

3- What would you combine based on your experience?

I think Shrimp, Clowns, and something like rasbora would be really nice.  Or white clouds.  Something with a very small mouth that doesn't really hang out in the bottom but likes open space.  Just make sure PH works for the shrimp and the other livestock.

Edited January 30, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Bev C]

 well i have had several bottom feeders now and i found out  netrite snails  will escape with no lid so does mystery snails if they are not well feed  they all need to well feed  to keep them in the tank

i only had one bristolnose (my favorite breed ) that escape  i found him vMarvin on the floor thank goodness I found him fast i got a top after that stunt .. he  Marvin was the only pelco that did that though   i had to lower the water level to keep him in    even while i did water changes  and cleaning he was a escape artist 

shrimp helps keep the tank clean  too but i found out if you do not have a lid if you lower lthe water level le1-2 inches  from from the top  it helps all snails and pelco  to stay in better 

[Lennie]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:39 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Not sure why you don't want any Otos

Because sadly  I can't find tank bred ones in where I live, and I personally really dislike the stuff they are exposed to until they end up in the tanks. Especially after watching Cory's video. 😢 Never seen what nerites go through, but probably not getting them either for that reason I guess. 

 

On 1/31/2023 at 2:39 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

don't think you need to add corydoras here, you can, but do not need to.  Smaller would be best, avoid the bigger ones, pick something you enjoy visually.

That's what I thought. Maybe I should move my pygmy cory school from 29g and increase their group size gradually! I love them. Having no anubias leaf to sleep on here tho. Smh 😄Or a new group of hastatus, if I can find any.

 

On 1/31/2023 at 2:44 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

The garra has a mouth that helps with swimming and grazing.  Similar to SAE, RTBS, Rainbow sharks, etc.  They can graze on pretty much anything, even lava rock which is notoriously sharp.  If you have one that acts more like a hillstream loach, they will likely pick a large flat surface as their territory.

Rachel O'Leary also says either one or at least a small group of 3-4. I've seen online that 2-3 not recommended, so either 1 or 4+. So one sounds like a safe bet as they love to graze as you said, also for the territorial behavior. Good to hear about rock being okay!

 

On 1/31/2023 at 2:44 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think Shrimp, Clowns, and something like rasbora would be really nice.  Or white clouds.  Something with a very small mouth that doesn't really hang out in the bottom but likes open space.  Just make sure PH works for the shrimp and the other livestock.

I've never had ph issue before, as I always get my fishies etc locally. They are all used to our tap water. I always have a chance to drip acclimate in this way too which is nice just in case! but thanks for the warning & suggestions! White clouds would hate me cause my temp increases to 30+ whatever I do, I can't stop it cause outside reaches almost 50C during summer. That's why I usually go for tropical fish and sterbais on corys, so they can take it okay, even shrimps. 0 loss from my experience even when it reached 32-33s. Not ideal but they tolerate.

I've been considering clowns for so long! But my L199 is even worse than sterbais for moving the substrate. What's yours behavior on that one? Also how good are they at grazing algae, or do they stop just like bristlenoses after they grow up like some people say? Would having no cave would be okay? I think he would use the behind the big wood on left corner as a natural cave tho, there is a big gap behind.

 

----------------------------------------------

On 1/31/2023 at 2:54 AM, Bev C said:

well i have had several bottom feeders now and i found out  netrite snails  will escape with no lid so does mystery snails if they are not well feed  they all need to well feed  to keep them in the tank

That explains a lot to me! I usually get my snails in low numbers for my tank size and introduce them after months of setup so there is always food! maybe that is why I've never seen any escaping before.

 

On 1/31/2023 at 2:54 AM, Bev C said:

i only had one bristolnose (my favorite breed ) that escape  i found him vMarvin on the floor thank goodness I found him fast i got a top after that stunt .. he  Marvin was the only pelco that did that though   i had to lower the water level to keep him in    even while i did water changes  and cleaning he was a escape artist 

shrimp helps keep the tank clean  too but i found out if you do not have a lid if you lower lthe water level le1-2 inches  from from the top  it helps all snails and pelco  to stay in better 

Thanks for the suggestions. I was thinking of the same! Leaving a bit of gap on top sounds like a good idea. I also let my floating plants cover on top gradually, so it creates some sort of a natural lid on top. I believe it has an affect on escaping behavior personally.

Marvin sounds to be lucky as hell that you were there. I've never heard bristlenoses escaping!!! He seems to have a character 😄 I don't mind having a pleco that does not graze on algae or stuff, as I already have an L199 which is on carnivore side. But I would love to hear about whether your BN stopped eating algae after they grow up, or keep doing the job? That helps to count one on clean up crew side.

------------------------------------

Thank you all for sharing you opinions and experiences with me!

[Bev C]

On 1/31/2023 at 4:06 AM, Lennie said:

Because sadly  I can't find tank bred ones in where I live, and I personally really dislike the stuff they are exposed to until they end up in the tanks. Especially after watching Cory's video. 😢 Never seen what nerites go through, but probably not getting them either for that reason I guess. 

 

That's what I thought. Maybe I should move my pygmy cory school from 29g and increase their group size gradually! I love them. Having no anubias leaf to sleep on here tho. Smh 😄Or a new group of hastatus, if I can find any.

 

Rachel O'Leary also says either one or at least a small group of 3-4. I've seen online that 2-3 not recommended, so either 1 or 4+. So one sounds like a safe bet as they love to graze as you said, also for the territorial behavior. Good to hear about rock being okay!

 

I've never had ph issue before, as I always get my fishies etc locally. They are all used to our tap water. I always have a chance to drip acclimate in this way too which is nice just in case! but thanks for the warning & suggestions! White clouds would hate me cause my temp increases to 30+ whatever I do, I can't stop it cause outside reaches almost 50C during summer. That's why I usually go for tropical fish and sterbais on corys, so they can take it okay, even shrimps. 0 loss from my experience even when it reached 32-33s. Not ideal but they tolerate.

I've been considering clowns for so long! But my L199 is even worse than sterbais for moving the substrate. What's yours behavior on that one? Also how good are they at grazing algae, or do they stop just like bristlenoses after they grow up like some people say? Would having no cave would be okay? I think he would use the behind the big wood on left corner as a natural cave tho, there is a big gap behind.

 

----------------------------------------------

That explains a lot to me! I usually get my snails in low numbers for my tank size and introduce them after months of setup so there is always food! maybe that is why I've never seen any escaping before.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I was thinking of the same! Leaving a bit of gap on top sounds like a good idea. I also let my floating plants cover on top gradually, so it creates some sort of a natural lid on top. I believe it has an affect on escaping behavior personally.

Marvin sounds to be lucky as hell that you were there. I've never heard bristlenoses escaping!!! He seems to have a character 😄 I don't mind having a pleco that does not graze on algae or stuff, as I already have an L199 which is on carnivore side. But I would love to hear about whether your BN stopped eating algae after they grow up, or keep doing the job? That helps to count one on clean up crew side.

------------------------------------

Thank you all for sharing you opinions and experiences with me!

Marvin and Barney (my current pelco was and are characters for sure  my pelco loves still loves and eats algae after it is full grown he eats everything  but mine loves raw vegetables most of all he eats green beans cucumber, zucchini sweet potatoes i just peel  and remove seeds the seeds mess up the water

[Lennie]

On 1/31/2023 at 1:16 PM, Bev C said:

Marvin and Barney (my current pelco was and are characters for sure  my pelco loves still loves and eats algae after it is full grown he eats everything  but mine loves raw vegetables most of all he eats green beans cucumber, zucchini sweet potatoes i just peel  and remove seeds the seeds mess up the water

I already feed those to my Rabbit snails! It is def not an extra work to me. Thanks for the response, I will keep that in mind:)

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/31/2023 at 1:06 AM, Lennie said:

Especially after watching Cory's video. 😢 Never seen what nerites go through, but probably not getting them either for that reason I guess. 

If you haven't. Here's a part 2 of the video. Hopefully I can find it. Wild caught is not a bad thing.

This is something I think a lot of us learned about from Cory. I can't find his video, but here's one from Prime Time.

On 1/31/2023 at 1:06 AM, Lennie said:

White clouds would hate me cause my temp increases to 30+ whatever I do, I can't stop it cause outside reaches almost 50C during summer. That's why I usually go for tropical fish and sterbais on corys, so they can take it okay, even shrimps. 0 loss from my experience even when it reached 32-33s. Not ideal but they tolerate.

That's tough! I have a similar issue here in the summer.

On 1/31/2023 at 1:06 AM, Lennie said:

I've been considering clowns for so long! But my L199 is even worse than sterbais for moving the substrate. What's yours behavior on that one? Also how good are they at grazing algae, or do they stop just like bristlenoses after they grow up like some people say? Would having no cave would be okay? I think he would use the behind the big wood on left corner as a natural cave tho, there is a big gap behind.

Mine stay on the wood and don't move. They even make caves in the wood. If you have a cave, they will use it. They generally like to be hidden, are nocturnal. Even a branch, mine hide in a twist and they are invisible until lights out.

They don't generally disturb the substrate unless spooked and they dart. BNPs are a lot more messy, but clowns generally focus on wood.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Lennie]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

If you haven't. Here's a part 2 of the video. Hopefully I can find it. Wild caught is not a bad thing.

Thanks for sharing! I watched it now.

My concern is beyond potential environment damage, but it is more of a personal thing, about me being a vegan. Otherwise,  fishing for food or polluted seas/freshwater is probably a worse topic to consider about environmental damage before it comes to keeping them in hobby level considering the damage level.  I worry about more of what the fish go through, what they feel once they are being suddenly caught out of their huge world and ending up small tanks at homes, and how all this journey is shaped until they end up in lots of peoples home. Cory's video let me to see them in first person, that's why I wanted to mention that part. To me, them being collected from wild is bad enough, but opinions may change from one to another ofcourse. But the last time we've talked something similar, someone from this forum said he bred ottos at home. I would love to adopt if I was living nearby and give them a chance.

But let's be fair, fish farms do not really make it any better than wild caughts most of the time. Also the demand for species with lots of body dismorphia, health issues, inbreeding, and so on, just for the "cute" and "beautiful" look. Those stuff do happen in tank bred species, which don't directly make them any better for sure. Especially after I've watched this video, I've understood some stuff better.

Also I'm not sure to what extend even this sustainable method can cover the demand realistically. Because todays all industrys have started by keeping chicken and a cow in the garden of every house ages ago. Wherever you check algae eaters online, you directly see otocinclus, nerites and amanos top recommended. The demand is huge worldwide.

Also I understand why we should not be releasing any plants, fish etc. to nature. But getting fish, snails or shrimp from nature, especially in huge amounts to meet the demand of the world must have a non-negligible effect on nature as well, Imo.

 

On 1/31/2023 at 7:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

That's tough! I have a similar issue here in the summer.

Neocaridinas are really hardy. The breeder guy I've talked to once said, he saw them in ice water, and had zero loss. Ofc that's nothing good for them, but they definitely can go both low on high end.

I hate summer. Probably so do my fish. Join our club 😄

 

On 1/31/2023 at 7:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Mine stay on the wood and don't move. They even make caves in the wood. If you have a cave, they will use it. They generally like to be hidden, are nocturnal. Even a branch, mine hide in a twist and they are invisible until lights out.

They don't generally disturb the substrate unless spooked and they dart. BNPs are a lot more messy, but clowns generally focus on wood.

I have lots of wood! And my lfs always have clowns. I will check them next time I'm there 🙂

planetcatfish says "Plants are not vital and will be nibbled or destroyed" for clown pleco. What-

I was gonna text on that clown pleco topic back in the day. I must have forgotten to do so. I directly searched for my comment about wanting them, obviously I haven't posted it.😎

Edited January 31, 2023 by Lennie

[Gannon]

Off subject a bit but I love the look of the tank! Amazing work!

[Lennie]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:34 PM, Gannon said:

Off subject a bit but I love the look of the tank! Amazing work!

Thanks!!😸 I can't wait ludwigia and rotala to grow and cover the background with some pinkish color!

A new tank is always exciting to set up

[Lennie]

An update:

The tank currently homes;

• 1 Zebra Nerite from my 29g
• 2 Mystery snails (1 blue [Rick] and 1 gold [Morty]
• 16 Pygmy Cories
• 11 Bloody Mary Shrimp

I've found someone who keeps different bristlenose plecos at his home, So I am considering adding one to the tank as @Bev C recommended, because I really need someone cleaning the glass for me and currently it is not working with only 3 snails. I dont mind cleaning the poop, but I dont like cleaning the glass 😄  I feed veggies and stuff to my snails already anyway, so that's not a chore to me!

I've never kept any bristlenoses before. I've watched many videos online already. The guy sent me the pics of his super reds he has been breeding, which I liked the look of most. Here are the pictures he sent me. I'm planning to get only one juvinile(he said he has his small ones around 7-8cms). I remember seeing bristlenose in your journal too! @Guppysnail 

How friendly would it be with mystery snails and any other tank mates? 

 

And here is Rick and Morty fighting over one piece of algae wafer when there is other two staying on the sand...

[The endler guy]

I’m my opinion I would say no lid eliminates all options (in my opinion that is) 

snails easily get out

see my post on the shrimp land program 

fish go “weeeeeeee”

[Guppysnail]

Mine only ever clean the snail shells. I have heard of under fed hungry bn pleco trying for mysteries and nerites and rarely developing a taste for them. My kids are always fat and happy so feel no need to actually try and hunt snails. 

[Lennie]

On 2/13/2023 at 9:37 PM, Guppysnail said:

I have heard of under fed hungry bn pleco trying for mysteries and nerites and rarely developing a taste for them.

That's interesting. I wanted to make sure  that it is okay when Prime Time Aquatics were mentioning bn as mystery snail tank mate but he said a bit extra caution especially if you wanna breed them. Thanks for sharing, I never knew that!

 

On 2/13/2023 at 9:36 PM, The endler guy said:

I’m my opinion I would say no lid eliminates all options (in my opinion that is) 

snails easily get out

see my post on the shrimp land program 

fish go “weeeeeeee”

I don't wanna jinx it, but over the many years of fishkeeping I've seen a fish jumping from my no lid tanks only once, and never seen a snail or shrimp escaping, thankfully. But obviously people experience them escaping. I usually stick to fish that are not known to prone to jumping like bettas, killis, hatchets etc., never fill the tank to the max, and try to grow floating plants on the surface as a natural lid. But I appreciate the warning. Hope I never ever face such occasion whatsoever. 

 

I've seen your shrimp before! 😄 what a mad lad. I haven't seen such a thing myself!

Edited February 13, 2023 by Lennie

[The endler guy]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:01 PM, Lennie said:

That's interesting. I wanted to reassure when Prime Time Aquatics were mentioning bn as mystery snail tank mate but he said a bit extra caution especially if you wanna breed them. Thanks for sharing, I never knew that!

 

I don't wanna jinx it, but over the many years of fishkeeping I've seen a fish jumping from my no lid tanks only once, and never seen a snail or shrimp escaping, thankfully. But obviously people experience them escaping. I usually stick to fish that are not known to prone to jumping like bettas, killis, hatchets etc., never fill the tank to the max, and try to grow floating plants on the surface as a natural lid. But I appreciate the warning. Hope I never ever face such occasion whatsoever. 

 

I've seen your shrimp before! 😄 what a mad lad. I haven't seen such a thing myself!

My snails in my betta tank also sometimes leave the water in search of dying duckweed 

[Lennie]

On 2/13/2023 at 10:03 PM, The endler guy said:

My snails in my betta tank also sometimes leave the water in search of dying duckweed 

Trying to find dying duckweed. Sounds like mission impossible😄

 

[The endler guy]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:12 PM, Lennie said:

Trying to find dying duckweed. Sounds like mission impossible😄

 

Not in a fairly warm 5 gallon, I’m always having to top it off!