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New clown loach behavior after 20 years


Smartiefox
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Hello, 
I come here in search for help or advice and opinions towards the behavior of one of my clown loaches.

Roughly a week ago I had a hardware failure which pretty much needed me to re build the aquarium entirely. I tried my best to re-use all the materials like sand and plants and keep the beneficial bacteria in the aquarium. Sadly one of my clown loaches didn't make it through the process. I guess at their age well above 20 years it was a little too much stress.

Now the remaining loaches show some interesting behavior I didn't see the in the last decade. They move tons of sand and substrate, unearth all the plants and go wild. Now I am worried there is something wrong with the parameters or something. 

Youtube Video of the new behavior

My ideas were:

  • Are they hungry and look desperately for food?
  • Could it be some eye problems? (photo attached, these spots on the skin are all on the glass)
  • Are the parameters wrong and they try to "get somewhere else"?
  • Is it normal and they just explore the new setup?
  • Are they having a problem with the temporary small size?

I was unsure if it belongs to "diseases". If so please let me know.

Thank you all for your feedback 🙂

Some additional information:
Size of the (temporary...) aquarium ~200L
NO3 ~5 mg/L
NO2 ~0 mg/L
GH ~5 °d
KH ~6 °d
pH ~7.0
Temp. ~27.5°C / 81.5 °F

IMG_20230110_185548.jpg

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On 1/17/2023 at 9:06 PM, Colu said:

What's your ammonia level 

The test kit measures in mg/l and indicates a level of around 5 mg/l or lower. It is barely noticeable. 
The scale on the kit says everything below 20 is fine, and at >100 mg/l it is problematic. 
Not sure how to convert that reading to ppm or something like that. 😞 

On 1/17/2023 at 9:15 PM, jwcarlson said:

How big was the original tank?  I'm sure the move was stressful, but the video looks a little like he's just used to having more space?  

A little under double the size. A new one is already in planning with the manufacturer with over 800L.
I was already planning getting a new one in the future since the loaches grew quite a lot.

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On 1/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, Smartiefox said:

The test kit measures in mg/l and indicates a level of around 5 mg/l or lower. It is barely noticeable. 
The scale on the kit says everything below 20 is fine, and at >100 mg/l it is problematic. 

You sure you tested ammonia (NH3) and not confusing it with Nitrate (NO3).
The <20 is fine >100 not so fine sounds more like a reading they would give with NO3 on a testkit.

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On 1/17/2023 at 9:38 PM, Remi de Groot said:

You sure you tested ammonia (NH3) and not confusing it with Nitrate (NO3).
The <20 is fine >100 not so fine sounds more like a reading they would give with NO3 on a testkit.

I am sorry.
 ... I feel kinda stupid. Just did a quick google lecture ... and I indeed misunderstood. 

Never had any problems with my aquarium so I am not used to all these parameters and names. 

I think I don't have a proper way to measure ammonia  in that case.

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No worries. I've made that mistake before as well, that's why i figured that would be the case.

Ammonia is never on the same strips as the other parameters, because it will contaminate the rest of the tests somehow.
So you need a different test strip or drips to test it.

The ammonia is actually the toxic parameter when setting up a new tank.
In a healthy tank the bacteria will convert this to Nitrates fast enough so it won't get to high.
With a lack of these bacteria the ammonia will build up and get toxic for the fish.

I don't know how fish will react with ammonia, so can't tell you if this is the case.
But a big water change can't hurt and is the only way to get ammonia out of the aquarium if it is in your tank.

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On 1/17/2023 at 9:54 PM, Remi de Groot said:

No worries. I've made that mistake before as well, that's why i figured that would be the case.

Ammonia is never on the same strips as the other parameters, because it will contaminate the rest of the tests somehow.
So you need a different test strip or drips to test it.

The ammonia is actually the toxic parameter when setting up a new tank.
In a healthy tank the bacteria will convert this to Nitrates fast enough so it won't get to high.
With a lack of these bacteria the ammonia will build up and get toxic for the fish.

I don't know how fish will react with ammonia, so can't tell you if this is the case.
But a big water change can't hurt and is the only way to get ammonia out of the aquarium if it is in your tank.

I'll do another 30% change now, just in case. (Did 20% every 2 days after the setup)
Could good be ammonia. Since I rebuild everything pretty much unplanned, I surely lost a lot of bacteria in the filter and sand.

Also I ordered a proper test kit. Since I live on an island without any pet store for fish supply... it will take some days to arrive. 😞 

Thank you all very much. I didn't have any problems in the last at least 15 years therefor I panicked a little.

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I'm sorry for your loss btw.

I'm not experienced with big fishies, but coming from the schooling fish perpective and thinking of them being old age and some saying goodbye to the friends over the time, how many clown loaches do you have in the school rn? I couldn't see any more in the video. 

New tank is also always a stress factor for sure. 

Beneficial bacteria do live on surfaces of the aquarium, substrate, plants, etc. But they mostly colonize around the filters as such place meets their needs more. Therefore, if you managed to move filter media to the new tank, then yes, in total, moving everything from the old tank and the filter definitely helps to keep the cycle. But I am not sure the amount of surfaces in the substrate/plants from old tank is enough to keep up with a big schooling fish like clown loaches. So there is a chance that there are beneficial bacteria in your tank, but currently not in a level to handle to complete the cycle safely for the fish, which means maybe there can be ammonia in the tank.

If you are dosing fertilizers it is even harder to comment on the cycle situation, even if the nitrite seems to be 0?, maybe majority of your nitrate can be coming from the fertilizer, or even tap water.

Unless you get your hands on a test kit, water change and dosing prime based on reccomendations sounds like better safe than sorry option here.

Just making some assumptions.

Hope your puppy gets well soon

 

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On 1/17/2023 at 10:19 PM, Lennie said:

how many clown loaches do you have in the school rn?

Now just 2 more. It is a sad story with my clown loaches. The one local pet store had fishes for a short time around 2000-2003. They sold me a single clown loach into a 60L aquarium. When I learned that they are in fact not meant to be alone, I bought a bigger aquarium and got more. A proper sized aquarium was not available and they refused to take the loach back... So I did my best to keep up with them. 
I plan to have around 10 in the new 800L.

On 1/17/2023 at 10:19 PM, Lennie said:

If you are dosing fertilizers it is even harder to comment on the cycle situation, even if the nitrite seems to be 0?, maybe majority of your nitrate can be coming from the fertilizer, or even tap water.

To be honest, I never used fertilizers. Plants and fish always did fine.

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Sorry that you lost a fish, but also congratulations on keeping your loaches so long and hats off to you for doing your best to keep up with their environmental needs.

I watched the video and to me it looked like hunting/exploration although a little frantic. I've never kept clown loaches but I've had swordtails and guppies who glass-surfed frantically when I moved them to a different tank with different fish in it, even though water parameters were perfectly fine. Glass surfing is a behavior that is often seen when water is getting toxic, but I had to conclude that in these cases it was just stress-driven, not water-quality-induced stress-driven.

I have never had a fish for 20 years and I doubt many of us have, so perhaps we are inexperienced at how stress from moving from one environment to another might show up as behavior in fish who have been moved after such a long time in a familiar environment. 

I hope you will post a follow up and let us know whether it turned out to be anything worrisome, or whether it was part of your loaches' adjustment to being moved. Hoping for the best!

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On 1/17/2023 at 11:38 AM, Smartiefox said:

Youtube Video of the new behavior

My ideas were:

  • Are they hungry and look desperately for food?
  • Could it be some eye problems? (photo attached, these spots on the skin are all on the glass)
  • Are the parameters wrong and they try to "get somewhere else"?
  • Is it normal and they just explore the new setup?
  • Are they having a problem with the temporary small size?

I was unsure if it belongs to "diseases". If so please let me know.

Thank you all for your feedback 🙂

Some additional information:
Size of the (temporary...) aquarium ~200L
NO3 ~5 mg/L
NO2 ~0 mg/L
GH ~5 °d
KH ~6 °d
pH ~7.0
Temp. ~27.5°C / 81.5 °F


All of these look good.  Parameters look good.  I wouldn't be too alarmed by the behavior in the substrate.

It's a loach species, and that's a behavior I see from them, corydoras, and even my RTBS.  They might be chasing something, smell something, and are trying to dig for it.  I think your initial assumption there at the top is probably accurate.  It's also a new tank so to speak.

Think of it this way, you had to mix up the substrate to change tanks so all the stuff on the bottom is mixed.  You made an omnivore / Aufwuchs lasanga bake and the fish might just be trying to sort through the plate to chase down something.  At the end of the video, looks like it's chewing to me. 🙂

On 1/17/2023 at 12:36 PM, Colu said:

If you ammonia is 5ppm that that would be the cause of the behaviour your seeing the only safe level of ammonia is zero

Agreed, definitely keep this in check.  Especially given the scaleless species.

 

 

On 1/17/2023 at 11:38 AM, Smartiefox said:

IMG_20230110_185548.jpg

What caught my eye was this photo and that substrate.

It's rounded (the rocks) and it's a big fish!  I would just keep an eye on the nose of the fish and the barbells.  Make sure the belly, the face, and the bottom fins on the body aren't showing any signs of disease or bacterial issues. 

Is the fish only doing this behavior where you have that big line of algae on the glass?  If yes, I would give em a little bit of repashy soilent green or veggie based foods.  Scrape that glass for the fish and let the tank go ahead and get that algae snack.

On 1/17/2023 at 12:44 PM, Smartiefox said:

I think I don't have a proper way to measure ammonia  in that case.

It's just a different strip because the ammonia pads interfere with the other tests. 

Edited by nabokovfan87
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At first thank you all for your kind replies. 🙂

On 1/18/2023 at 1:58 AM, PineSong said:

I hope you will post a follow up and let us know whether it turned out to be anything worrisome, or whether it was part of your loaches' adjustment to being moved.

I will definitely keep this thread updated since the outcome might help others as well in the long term.
Behavior didn't change much, except they are reaching the bottom glass and the pile in the middle is already as tall as my hand width. 😅

On 1/18/2023 at 9:07 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

You made an omnivore / Aufwuchs lasanga bake and the fish might just be trying to sort through the plate to chase down something.

Sounds fair, I'll keep an eye on it. The confusing thing is, they pretty much ignore the "Tabis" krill food tablets but keep up digging.

On 1/18/2023 at 9:07 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Is the fish only doing this behavior where you have that big line of algae on the glass?

Not really. It is basically one spot only. Might be a vortex in front of some driftwood there. But the line of algae marks the initial sand height. 

On 1/18/2023 at 9:07 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

It's rounded (the rocks) and it's a big fish!  I would just keep an eye on the nose of the fish and the barbells. 

I'll watch that, thanks. (It was a mix of 2/3 fine sand and 1/3 small gravel below - they just swooshed all the fine sand away 😅)
I already called the manufacturer of my new aquarium to make it a bit taller so I can increase the sand layer... just in case 👀

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Small update as promised.
The ammonia test arrived and resulted in 0 to 0.1 ppm NH3/NH4 level.
Gladly this is not a problem. 
Additionally I did a chlorine test with our tap water, which also resulted in a solid 0 (I didn't trust the phone support of our local water supply company telling me they never used chlorine... but turned out I was skeptical for no reason after all.
All other parameters are unchanged compared to the last time.

The behavior did not significantly change - it just got less frequent and shifted to the nights.

So all in all I would just call it a day and observe further. All parameters I can control seem fine.

Thanks again for all your feedback, I am a little more calmed down now 😊 

Now enjoy this clown loach showing why they are called clown. I mean, why not chilling upside down... 😁

IMG_20230119_134901.jpg

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