My Old Friend Staghorn

[Cinnebuns]

A few months ago I had a long and harsh battle with staghorn algae. I mostly won because the tank ended up crashing so I moved all of the fish out which allowed me to make some more radical steps to get rid of it. It has be almost 2 months since then and I can see bits of it creeping back. 

I know algae is typically a sign of an imbalance and I fully admit that plants and balancing is a weakness of mine in this hobby but any other more specific suggestions to look into?  Tonight I did target dose excel on the spots that it looked to be coming out of. I also have been pulling it off where I can or even removing leaves. Any tips can help so it doesn't get as bad as it did before!  

@nabokovfan87memory serves you once had some tips for this?  I apologize that I have forgotten the specifics and such. My mind has been everywhere lately. 

[nabokovfan87]

Is there anything in the tank apart from the plants and algae?

I'll grab a few threads and posts. Try to dig for the details.
 

 

I assume that some of this information has changed, and I have new stuff floating around in my mind because of the recent, more intense efforts to rid the tank of this stuff. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/21/2022 at 12:20 AM, Cinnebuns said:

Any tips can help so it doesn't get as bad as it did before!  

From the older post linked above:
 

Quote

Second, manual removal and manual effort is the only real way to get through a severe algae issue.  When it first started I was at a loss because every bit of my anubias was caked in BBA covered leaves. If I remove those leaves, the plant will be encouraged to grow, but have nothing but a rhizome and a few roots to do so.  Giving the plant time to do it's work, manually removing the leaves as new ones appear, scraping it off leaves when I can, using a brush on hardscape, scrubbing the hard algae off of the glass and hardscape, and manually taking out every bit of frustration on algae growing on the equipment is the only real way to make progress.  It's going to float around the tank and massive water changes will help to siphon out a lot of the floating debris, but it takes constant weekly effort to keep brushing it off and keep pushing it back to get ahead. Especially if the algae is stubborn and persistent. On wood, use a knife or razor blade and scrape it off.  Use a sponge or stiff brush on rocks to remove it.  Use a soft toothbrush on your leaves and then siphon everything out.  Remove the filter, clean it thoroughly, and get ready to do the same thing next week if you need to.  Keep doing this, until you get things going the right direction. That is how you give your plants a fighting chance when you're dealing with severe BBA.

I think it's clear at this point how much I detest this algae.  I don't think BBA can be discussed apart from staghorn and vice versa.  They are both red algae and behave similarly and are just at difficult to get rid of.  Common reasons I have seen BBA / Staghorn do well in my tank, and all of these I can specifically point back to testing or experience trying to tweak knobs over months of effort.
 

1. Equipment Failure or Circulation Issues:
2. Excess Nitrates in the water (over 10 ppm, especially over 30)
3. Excess Phosphate, iron, magnesium, etc.
4. Excess light intensity
5. Excess light duration
6. Excess of Fertilizer dosing
7. Substrate type
8. Wood
9. CO2 issues
10. Lack of algae eaters
11. Lack of plant mass
12. Spores in the water before it gets to your tank
13. Introduced via plants
14. Water changes not often enough

I am sure there is more, but I would approach that list as a "reasons why" checklist.  Some of them might make sense for your situation and some might not.  I list the oddball ones, I list the uncommon reasons, because I have seen this stuff go from little black diatoms into long-haired monsters, and I have seen it slowly die off over months and months.  I have had this stuff go from the long-haired monster down to nothing and remain "low level" for almost a year.  I guarantee you if I swap the light out or change something, it will explode on me.   Part of this is because of the filtration type, but I also think that specific triggers cause it to thrive.  I can't tell you how to get rid of it. Because I haven't yet.  But, I absolutely can tell you what not to do and hopefully that helps! 

Methods to get rid of this stuff that I am seriously considering:
A. Trash and replace everything except the fish
B. Remove everything, dip the plants in RR, bleach the tank.
C.  Remove everything, dip the plants in RR, turn it into salty salty salty salty salty water for a while.
D.  Add a million plants and just keep grinding.

Lighting for me is 4 hours a day.  I am considering NOT dosing anything and only using root tabs for a while.  Along with Easy carbon (spot dosing seems to be the only way, but more on this to come once I start dosing it again)

[Cinnebuns]

@nabokovfan87 I'm actually starting to wonder if it is staghorn and not something else like maybe bba

[Patrick_G]

Looks like staghorn with maybe a side of bba. How much plant mass do you have in the tank? I’m starting to believe a seasoned tank with lots of plant mass is the best way to combat algae. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/21/2022 at 12:44 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Looks like staghorn.  I genuinely think they are always around in pairs.  Hard to have one and not the other.

Maybe this will help:

I watch this from time to time to try to motivate and center my thoughts on how to stop this stuff.  Either one, BBA/Staghorn are caused by similar issues and will act/behave similarly.  The real issue is removal, but getting rid of the spores.
 

 

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/21/2022 at 3:19 PM, Pepere said:

The best way to combat Algae is to remove the water….

 

hard on the fish though….

Funny story about this tho. I had some cholla wood with bba on it. I decided to let it sit outside of the tank hoping it would kill it. After a month I put it back in the tank and within a week the bba was growing. I'm still confused on that one. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:52 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Funny story about this tho. I had some cholla wood with bba on it. I decided to let it sit outside of the tank hoping it would kill it. After a month I put it back in the tank and within a week the bba was growing. I'm still confused on that one. 

This stuff is literally part terminator / part zombie.  It's nuts.  Moss will also do that too sometimes.

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/21/2022 at 2:54 PM, Patrick_G said:

How much plant mass do you have in the tank? I’m starting to believe a seasoned tank with lots of plant mass is the best way to combat algae.

Tank is well seasoned and heavily planted 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:13 AM, Cinnebuns said:

Tank is well seasoned and heavily planted 

Can you go through everything?  I apologize if you already have.
Lighting schedule and intensity, settings, etc.
Dosing, what and how often
KH, GH, PH. Temp.

This was when I first saw it.  Difficult to see, but this was a very established "medium demand" stem planted tank.  I saw black spots, like black diatoms all over in places.  Then it turned into the mess on the wood and equipment (high flow). It doesn't look like much, but it just really lingers around.






I am certain in this tank it showed up because of bad dosing schedule and the CO2 stopped working.  Plants that were left were too slow to outcompete it.  They went into tubs with a massive jump in bioload and a ton of light. Turned into....


Flocks into the "high flow" areas and then spreads spores everywhere.  At the photo below, it's on the wood, roots of the anubias, edge of leaves, etc.



Once it got excess light, nutrients, water, etc.:


The clumps of DHG you can see the longer leaves (out of water growth, sorry dyslexia, I always mess up the verbiage) which are dying off.  THAT is what this stuff loves to attack.  If it's on the edge of things, usually staghorn is the main culprit. 


Amanos REALLY helped at this point.




End of the caves, Centered mostly on the output flow path of the Tidal.  A lot of this was from the tubs and just worsened as it got better care (my trying to get the plants going).

Then I had the equipment crash and I got worms.  😞

On 11/21/2022 at 12:20 AM, Cinnebuns said:

Tonight I did target dose excel on the spots that it looked to be coming out of.

This is the only thing I've seen respond to it.  Spot dosing.

Edited November 22, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[sairving]

I have to look for it, but a member of a forum I use to be on more posted about using excel and hydrogen peroxide to treat a tank for algae. Like a one two punch. I'm leaving for work, but I will look later when I get a chance.

 

[Mmiller2001]

Staghorn is caused by excess ammonia. You are probably under filtered. If you see particles in your water, that's an easy determiner. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:03 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Staghorn is caused by excess ammonia. You are probably under filtered. If you see particles in your water, that's an easy determiner. 

So this is something that was brought up in the post I made on Facebook. The tank is actually over filtered. It has 2 HOB filters and the algae is developing mostly directly where the outflow is. Someone brought up it could be a factor of TOO much flow in that spot. 1 of the filters outflow is buffered but I might try buffering the other. I might also try separating them more because they are right next to each other. When I get home I can add a pic. 

[nabokovfan87]

I have done a ton of filtration and a lot less filtration. Once you get it, it just goes to high flow areas to spread. 😞

Whatever this stuff is just sucks.

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/22/2022 at 2:34 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I have done a ton of filtration and a lot less filtration. Once you get it, it just goes to high flow areas to spread. 😞

Whatever this stuff is just sucks.

Oh and BTW I'm getting to answering your post too. Just in the middle of something and didn't have time to respond yet. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:37 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Oh and BTW I'm getting to answering your post too. Just in the middle of something and didn't have time to respond yet. 

Coffee first! Hopefully it was helpful to see it all.

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:27 PM, Cinnebuns said:

So this is something that was brought up in the post I made on Facebook. The tank is actually over filtered. It has 2 HOB filters and the algae is developing mostly directly where the outflow is. Someone brought up it could be a factor of TOO much flow in that spot. 1 of the filters outflow is buffered but I might try buffering the other. I might also try separating them more because they are right next to each other. When I get home I can add a pic. 

What size tank and which filters? And can you post a whole tank shot.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[MattyM]

I've been dealing with minor staghorn in my tanks - i think for me it's a light/nutrient imbalance. The plants needed more nutrients to keep up with the lighting, and when struggling would start to get staghorn on the edges.  The above video helped me out. I was so happy just to finally figure out the specific type of algae. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/22/2022 at 4:28 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What size tank and which filters? And can you post a whole tank shot.

29 gallon. Double aqueon 20 hob filters. I literally JUST moved them to this location. They have been both directly side by side in the middle before. 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:32 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Can you go through everything?  I apologize if you already have.
Lighting schedule and intensity, settings, etc.
Dosing, what and how often
KH, GH, PH. Temp.

29 gallon. About 30 guppies, 12 panda cories, 1 powdered blue gourami, 4 khuli loaches and a handful of nerite and mystery snails. 

Fine gravel substrate. Using easy green every 1-2 weeks about 2 or 3 squirts. ACO root tabs replaced every 2 months. Only gravel vacing directly in the middle where there is no plant growth. 

I haven't tested PH, GH and KH in awhile but I can later if you want so these numbers are what I remember they typically are. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, it's been running very low like 5-10 nitrate lately. 8.0-8.2 PH. 19-20 GH. 14-16 KH. Temp 76

[Cinnebuns]

Lights are a cheap full spectrum option. I kinda consider it between low to medium lighting. Lights are on 12 hours a day. 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:32 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Flocks into the "high flow" areas

This is what I suspect is going on in mine. It always starts right under where both HOB filters outflows have been. I moved them apart just now. 

On 11/22/2022 at 2:32 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

This is the only thing I've seen respond to it.  Spot dosing.

Wait I'm confused by this comment. What do you mean by respond to it and stop dosing? No more excel?  

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:38 AM, Cinnebuns said:

Wait I'm confused by this comment. What do you mean by respond to it and stop dosing? No more excel?  

Instead of dosing it into the water. You use it like a direct treatment. Turn of the filters so the water is stagnant and then you directly put your dosage for the day on the problem areas.

First time I did it I put way too much and toasted a section of moss. Some plants won't like it so err on the side of more treatments in an area compared to one big one.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/23/2022 at 2:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Instead of dosing it into the water. You use it like a direct treatment. Turn of the filters so the water is stagnant and then you directly put your dosage for the day on the problem areas.

That's exactly what I was doing. I haven't been consistent about doing it daily tho and have literally only done it once. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/23/2022 at 11:32 AM, Cinnebuns said:

29 gallon. About 30 guppies, 12 panda cories, 1 powdered blue gourami, 4 khuli loaches and a handful of nerite and mystery snails.

You are under filtered for this kind of stocking level. Add in that you don't have the tank full. Probably about 23 or 24 (maybe) gallons in there after substrate, plants and fish. This is ammonia related.

Also, the intakes on the filter look blocked, further reducing tank turn over. 

The majority of plants like soft water and lower Karbonate hardness. They may be struggling a bit as well from nonoptimal parameters

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/23/2022 at 10:32 AM, Cinnebuns said:

29 gallon. About 30 guppies, 12 panda cories, 1 powdered blue gourami, 4 khuli loaches and a handful of nerite and mystery snails. 

Well it's definitely not detritus worms causing excess ammonia spikes and weird nitrate issues.  As long as nitrates are low, that has worked better for me than having them 20+.  I try to stick to 10 or fewer ppm.

On 11/23/2022 at 10:32 AM, Cinnebuns said:

29 gallon. Double aqueon 20 hob filters.

I don't think it's too much flow.  I would try to get the output of the one on the right (trying to picture it in my head) so that you have the output on the right 1/2 of each section of the tank and then the inputs would be left wall and "center brace" so to speak.  With the HoB on the right all the way you might have two circles of flow but a calm/dead spot in the middle.  The main thing is just that you don't have dead spots, so if you see mulm in the middle piling up, then move that right one to the center somewhat.  The output would hit the front glass and go left/right (mostly into that corner).  Because of the setup as well, it'd be awesome with pressurized CO2.
 

On 11/23/2022 at 10:32 AM, Cinnebuns said:

Fine gravel substrate. Using easy green every 1-2 weeks about 2 or 3 squirts. ACO root tabs replaced every 2 months. Only gravel vacing directly in the middle where there is no plant growth. 

I can try to make a video if you need to, but just make sure any carpeting plants aren't stuck with organics floating around in the tank.  That's partially what led me to worms on my side was I didn't realize how much crap was in the S. Repens.  Not rough or anything, but the typical method is to just stick the siphon gently into the bushy plants to remove anything.  THIS is actually pretty critical to remove the sports and chunks of BBA / Staghorn that floats around and gets caught on things.
 

On 11/23/2022 at 10:32 AM, Cinnebuns said:

I haven't tested PH, GH and KH in awhile but I can later if you want so these numbers are what I remember they typically are. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, it's been running very low like 5-10 nitrate lately. 8.0-8.2 PH. 19-20 GH. 14-16 KH. Temp 76

I don't see any issues.  I was just asking because KH can lead to some plant issues.

On 11/23/2022 at 1:27 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

The majority of plants like soft water and lower Karbonate hardness. They may be struggling a bit as well from nonoptimal parameters

What plants would do well in this water?  Very awesome to have this type of knowledge on the forums! 

On 11/23/2022 at 1:18 PM, Cinnebuns said:

That's exactly what I was doing. I haven't been consistent about doing it daily tho and have literally only done it once. 

Yeah, hopefully the bentley and the above video helps as far as how to treat it.  I have been doing it just one water change day in the worst spots after I get all my maintenance done before turning things back on or refilling.  The wood sticks out and I have been choosing a few spots.  I pump my dose into the ACO measure / shot glass and then use the pipette.  about 1/3 of the pipette per section and try to hit a few of them.  I did one yesterday, it's not dead by any means, but it's definitely red and the amanos and whatever else can start to get rid of it.  It also should grow slower after dosing that spot.  I say should.... all just starting these methods, but literally nothing else has done as much so far.