hornwort growth and waterflow question

[venzi]

Hi.  So a common concern people have with hornwort is the needles falling off.  I'm assuming this is in response to the nutrients in the water column no longer being at a level to sustain growth and/or not enough lighting due to the growth of the plant.  So in my mind, if I were to say cut/remove half of the hornwort every 2 or 3 weeks, then the chances of the needles falling off would be very low?

I have 2 pumps at the top/rear corners of my 20g tank pointing at each other to cancel the water flow out.  Would floating plants such as hornwort be OK w/ this kind of setup?  Note that I have a female betta fish that has no problems swimming around in my tank.  It obviously doesn't stay within the path of the strongest current (like the platies I have like to surf that current), but just stating this to illustrate roughly how strong the current is and how localized it is.

In general, what is the reasoning behind plants not liking "high flow"? do the nutrients move too fast that the plants can't absorb it?

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/29/2022 at 2:11 AM, venzi said:

general, what is the reasoning behind plants not liking "high flow"? do the nutrients move too fast that the plants can't absorb it?

 

Maybe that, but mostly because so much resistance means that it’s very hard to get plants to root in the first place (personal experience) and plants do experience more difficulties if they aren’t high-flow plants.

@dasaltemelosguy knows a lot about plants, maybe he can touch this up.

[anewbie]

On 10/29/2022 at 1:11 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Maybe that, but mostly because so much resistance means that it’s very hard to get plants to root in the first place (personal experience) and plants do experience more difficulties if they aren’t high-flow plants.

@dasaltemelosguy knows a lot about plants, maybe he can touch this up.

hornworth does't form roots. I've not had problems with it in modest flow; certainly does a *lot* better than 'floaters' like frogbit and red-root floater. I would say that hornworth would be fine with it IF your water meets its requirement and you have adequate light. This is the bunch i have in an aquarium:

 

This aquarium has been setup for a bit 40 months - i have to take out about 20% of the hornworth every 2 or 3 weeks as it gets quite thick. I will say that it is in another aquarium next to this one and doesn't do quite as well but not 100% sure of the issue in that aquarium - this one has a bit more current.

 

I've never had problems with 'needle' drop; but i have heard others do have the issue. I suspect if the growing environment is not suitable or radically different from the source the plant drops needs as it adjust to your growing environment (and if it is unable to adjust it dies).

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by anewbie

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, anewbie said:

hornworth does't form roots.

No, but it does form a strong sort of stem which has a Latin name which I can’t remember 😂.

[TOtrees]

I keep hornwort in a lot of my tanks for its fast growth (great at cleaning the water) and as cover for fry and shrimps. I find that where I have I have hornwort in a tank, the other plants rarely perform well. Hornwort is just too good at taking nutrients faster than the other plants, I think. So if your goal is cleaner water or algae control hornwort is pretty awesome.

The only time I ever see needle drop is when something changes. For example, significant and sudden temperature change, or move it from one thing to another with a big parameter change. I’ve also seen a lot of needle drop with an otherwise-benign whole-tank peroxide treatment. I put in a dose of peroxide that was completely fine for the fish and shrimps, and the hornwort collapsed.

As long as you’re feeding the tank regularly, I can’t imagine that nutrients are so low that the hornwort would drop its needles.

Taking a run at a couple of your other questions: I don’t think that high flow would affect or interrupt any plant’s ability to take up nutrients, if those nutrients are in the water. At least not within the range of flows that can be experienced in an aquarium. In general, however, floating plants (despite being able to grow roots hornwort is more like a floating plant than a stem plant in my opinion) really really really prefer calm still water. If your hornwort are getting tumbled around and are constantly twisting and bashing against themselves and other things, perhaps they are sensing this as stress and responding by shedding leaves.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:18 PM, TOtrees said:

keep hornwort in a lot of my tanks for its fast growth (great at cleaning the water) and as cover for fry and shrimps.

Once trimmed horn wort in my shrimp tank, and really had to make sure there weren’t any shrimp in it. It took forever!!!

[venzi]

On 10/29/2022 at 1:41 AM, anewbie said:

i have to take out about 20% of the hornworth every 2 or 3 weeks as it gets quite thick

that's a beautiful aquarium you have going there.  I love that look.  Any tips or insight into pruning hornwort?  Like do you like to cut the longest stem in half or do you like to cut away the outer layers?  

[JoeQ]

Interesting!

I experienced needle loss with extreme lack of nutrients,  the biggest offender IMO was nitrogen. Lack of light gave the stem an anorexic appearance. A contributing factor could have also been, being caught in a high flow area, how much I'm not sure. I have since moved the withered stem to a well lit area to see if it recoveres, ill report back with the results. 

[TOtrees]

On 10/30/2022 at 12:56 AM, venzi said:

Any tips or insight into pruning hornwort?

Keep some new growth, and discard the rest. You can keep a few connected growing tips if you want to keep a bigger piece, or just a few inches of one if you want to keep less. 

[Tanked]

I've never had a problem with needle drop until the Great Hornwort Apocalypse of 2020. I lost all of it.  The cause was never pinpointed, but was most likely repeated whole tank peroxide treatments that @TOtrees mentioned.  Cuttings placed in other aquariums did not recover.  Hornwort is a low light plant and grows well under most lighting conditions.   Nutrient problems are more likely to be an issue.  I don't think that high flow is a problem for Hornwort, as I have actually had it grow while slowly tumbling in the current. 

I think the simplest explanation as to why some plants don't do well in high flow areas, is because they simply aren't built for it.  Shallow inadequate root systems can't anchor or feed the plant properly, rigid stems and leaves resist water movement past the plant causing continuous stress...

[anewbie]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:56 PM, venzi said:

that's a beautiful aquarium you have going there.  I love that look.  Any tips or insight into pruning hornwort?  Like do you like to cut the longest stem in half or do you like to cut away the outer layers?  

You can cut it or pull it apart as you feel fit; it will simply branch and grow new groups. I take absolutely no special care when pruning. Frequently i'll just grab a bunch - rip it  off and toss it.... 

 

I did have it drop needles once - i had used furan2 - sure way to kill it. Also it hates salt (and probably really water - but not sure - my water is tds 120/gh 7). If you have to treat the fishes i'd probably remove a portion and put it in a pail with some water.

Edited October 30, 2022 by anewbie

[JettsPapa]

The only times I've had hornwort drop needles is when it's introduced to a new tank, and not always then.  If it does happen, it's quick.  Every needle will fall off within two days.

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 10/28/2022 at 11:11 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Maybe that, but mostly because so much resistance means that it’s very hard to get plants to root in the first place (personal experience) and plants do experience more difficulties if they aren’t high-flow plants.

@dasaltemelosguy knows a lot about plants, maybe he can touch this up.

Thank you for thinking of me but I really don't know enough. @OnlyGenusCaps is a plant physiologist and would know much more than I.  I know more about cleaning them than growing them!

[Torrey]

On 10/28/2022 at 6:11 PM, venzi said:

Hi.  So a common concern people have with hornwort is the needles falling off.  I'm assuming this is in response to the nutrients in the water column no longer being at a level to sustain growth and/or not enough lighting due to the growth of the plant.  So in my mind, if I were to say cut/remove half of the hornwort every 2 or 3 weeks, then the chances of the needles falling off would be very low?

I have 2 pumps at the top/rear corners of my 20g tank pointing at each other to cancel the water flow out.  Would floating plants such as hornwort be OK w/ this kind of setup?  Note that I have a female betta fish that has no problems swimming around in my tank.  It obviously doesn't stay within the path of the strongest current (like the platies I have like to surf that current), but just stating this to illustrate roughly how strong the current is and how localized it is.

In general, what is the reasoning behind plants not liking "high flow"? do the nutrients move too fast that the plants can't absorb it?

Hornwort is the biggest calcium hog I have found in the plant family.

Which works for me, because my tap water has so much calcium drinking it gives people kidney stones!

High flow can injure delicate leaves, and as TheSwissAquarist pointed out, can interfere with root development. Since hornwort has neither, flow really isn't an issue unless you are recreating forceful river flow (like for hillstream loaches). The amount of flow for a betta shouldn't harm the hornwort, and as long as you remain observant, you will pick up on growth changes (color changes, thinner stems, wider spaces between hornwort fronds) that precede the famed needle drop.

My learning curve this summer has been around vitamin and mineral deficiencies in plants being responsible for snail predation on plants, as well as melt and pretty much all other problems we see in our tanks. Identifying the appropriate ferts for our pH would potentially solve 90% of my plant keeping woes.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:48 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

I know more about cleaning them than growing them!

Not true.  But funny!