My dying wish is a tank full of healthy crypts

[Jess]

Ok this is ended up as kind of a rant....sorry...but if folks have suggestions I'll happily take them!!!

It's such torture that I love every single kind of cryptocoryne SO MUCH, and yet keeping them alive feels like a coin toss (at best) or gambling in a casino (at worst).  I've bought sooooo many crypts of every form (potted, tissue culture, bare root) from several vendors (Co-op, LFS, and the common plant vendors in the U.S.) and every different species or type that I could find.  My survival rate is maybe 10-20%.  Mind you, I have 3 aquariums that are full of plants...just not the ones I desperately want.  In 2 yrs I've easily sunk over $1k into crypts (over $3k into plants in general).

I thought I had cracked the code!  With the last batch of crypts from the Co-op I left them in their pots for 2+ weeks.  2 crypts, in two different tanks, and one of them I just planted in the aquasoil last week seems to be doing fine.  The other, not yet planted, was still doing fine in its pot.  In that tank, I started dosing CaSO4 last week because my KH and GH are super low and I don't have crushed coral, and since Easy Green doesn't contain calcium I know my calcium levels are low.  I remineralize a bit with Seachem Equilibrium but thought just a bit of gypsum would help to just raise the calcium levels more without increasing the GH so much (Equilibrium is mostly potassium).  I've only added 1/2 tsp for 45 gallons every 4 days.  Well, this morning I noticed the still-potted crypt in that tank has completely melted.  Like, overnight.  Last week $100 worth of crypts arrived (not Co-op that time), bare-root plants I've been floating in the tank, and they've almost all melted.  I'm sure the remaining ones will melt soon after I plant them in the aquasoil.

I just feel so sad.  I think they really hate my soft water (about 30ppm KH, 100ppm GH after I add Seachem Equilibrium), or maybe they hate the 76-78 degree temps...those are the only things I can think of.  I guess I need to get crushed coral and try mixing that into the aquasoil where I plant them; that would simulate CaCO3 from limestone in the waters where they apparently naturally grow.  Or I just need to give up on crypts entirely.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:13 PM, Jess said:

need to get crushed coral and try mixing that

That seems to be the best course of action, keep us posted!

[The Arthritic Aquarist]

And I thought I'd spent quite a bit on plants!  🙂

Crypts can be exasperating.  Mine looked like they were melting for the longest time.  I almost gave up hope, but let them be. Then, suddenly, they sprung to life.  One has even reproduced twice.  They're in fairly hard, neutral water.  I'd also been playing around with fert and light levels, so that may have had something to do with it.  Mine are in plain gravel and I use root tabs occasionally.  Best of luck with the crushed coral approach.

[Patrick_G]

I’m glad you posted this. I have good luck with Crypts.  It’s been a while since I tested GH and KH,  I decided to test so I could add some data that might be helpful. I was fully expecting my tap water to be very low GH and KH like the last time I tested it many months ago. I was surprised to find that my GH has gone from 1-2 degrees to 7-8, while my KH is still near the low end of the scale.
 

So my Crypts are currently growing strong in tank water that’s about GH 150ppm and KH around 30-40 ppm. There is a small amount of crushed coral in the tank. PH hovers around 6.8.  They were previously growing well in much softer water.  I’m dosing Easy Green at the med/high light level, about 2ml/g once a week. I’m also adding supplemental potassium and iron. I’m having some issues with my Balansae and Pink Flamingo but the others are growing well. 

[Jess]

@Patrick_G thank you so much!!!  This is super helpful.  A few of my crypts (the surviving ones) did well in softer water (GH 2-3 degrees)...I'm eager to see if raising the GH will just help increase my crypt survival rate.  I used to dose Easy Green at 1ml/g once per week, but a month ago I slowly start increasing it and now I'm dosing 1ml/g 3x per week.  I've also started to get more diligent about adding supplemental potassium; lack of K has definitely been a problem - my dwarf lilies started getting holes in their leaves after a year of great growth.  I bought root tabs and I plan to add those under all my heavy root feeders.  Crushed coral I think is a must-try.  One thing I'm not sure about is mixing it into aquasoil.  The aquasoil already buffers my water's KH (one tank has ADA, the other has the Platinum one that nilocG sells because ADA soil wasn't available).  Maybe aquasoil is the problem (I don't know why it would be, but willing to consider it).  Maybe I should just get some Easy Planters and fill them with gravel and crushed coral and add a root tab to it.

By the way, this tank in your signature is lovely!!!!  Thanks again for your comment.  The added data is very helpful.

[Patrick_G]

At your level you might consider the estimative index dosing system. Maybe in just one experimental tank stocked with various crypts you could start with RO or distilled water mineralized to medium GH/KH. You would then use EI to monitor exactly what’s going into the tank. You could also try various substrates in pots. 

 

 

[anewbie]

Be aware that some crypts require hard water; but others will do much better in soft water....

[JoeQ]

Ive never had trouble with crypts until I started doing a lot of water colum ferts, they hate the constantly changing conditions. They are more of a set it (with a long lasting root tab) and forget it plant. Also another thing that they prefer is low light but long hours. IMO, you are trying too hard, you are doing too much!

Edit: for what its worth my parameters are gh 150+ ppm, 40~80kh ppm, 6.8ph

Edited November 20, 2022 by JoeQ
Fixed range in KH

[Jenja]

So you were seeing signs that indicated you needed more calcium? Or you decided you did because it is, in your opinion, too low?  I'm getting the impression it was the latter and that's when you veered wildly off the road. Consistency isn't just for fish, plants, crypts in particular, love it too - they are rather notorious for melting when parameters change...which is exactly what happened here when they were going well for you, you changed what was working for them.

I'd say figure out what you want to set your hardness at and commit - then once you've done that for a few months get some crypts, change nothing and see if they like your water. Some plants just won't - the entire internet loathes duckweed and can't get rid of it, but when I put it in my tanks? Dead in less than a week. Could I change my water? Maybe go the ro/di route and get away from my well softener? Sure could, but the plants (and fish) I currently have working for me? They might die off and I've just added extra work and worry into my hobby.

[OutBout]

Plenty of good suggestions here! Consistency and stability is key with cryptocoryne, but also be aware some prefer soft water (blackwater) or hard water (limestone deposits). My last aquarium that was dominated with crypts was loaded with mopani wood which created nice blackwater conditions. I hardly changed water in this tank, and the parameters were: pH 6.0-6.4, Kh 1-2, Gh 4-5. I tried out various types of crypts and predictably the hard water ones (C. hudoroi, C. aponogetifolia) croaked. However, other crypts such as the C. nurii group, C. affinis, C. jacobsonii all thrived due to their soft water preference.

Also consider that cryptocoryne will have a transitional period where they will lose leaves, and the rosette with roots will stick around. The triggers for crypt melt are numerous, including: emersed growth to submerged (and vice-versa), temperature, humidity, nutrient availability (tissue culture media to inert substrate), water composition, health of plants (sterile tissue culture plants never being exposed to various pathogens). A suggestion to help with this transition is to either cut the leaves off at the time of placing them in the water/planting or cut them when you start noticing malnutritional signs. This will reduce energy expenditure for the plant as it'll try to repair and preserve damaged leaves, and new leaves should follow.

Furthermore, cryptocoryne can be exceptionally slow growers. Adding nutrients directly to roots and having access to higher concentration of CO2 can create an environment for a smoother transition.

What species of crypts have you tried out? I've found that C. undulata and C. spiralis to be quite hardy to many parameters. Hope this helps!

Edited October 15, 2022 by OutBout

[B7gwap]

The only time I ever melted crypts was when I pulled up a massive Red Wendtii that was too close to the front of the tank, sorted out about 25-30 plantlets, found new homes for about half of them, and let the rest float. I don’t think they like having their roots exposed or something because all the plantlets I replanted are alive and well, the floaters are all dead within a week. 
 

for purposes of discussion I have fairly neutral ph water with anywhere from medium to high hardness. (Depending on which tank) and Wendtii seems to grow in all of them. 

[Cory]

Normal gravel, mix in crushed coral. Feed tons of root tabs. Neutral pH is gonna lead to success. Crypts melt from water parameter shock typically.

[Jess]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:32 PM, Patrick_G said:

At your level you might consider the estimative index dosing system.

I used to do something like that (Perpetual Preservation System... I always had the impression that EI system would be too hard on my fish)!!!  I wanted to go with easier options, LOL!  Easy Green is perfect except that is has 0ppm calcium and my tap water is extremely soft, and I didn't put crushed coral in because I have aquasoil (and wasn't sure that would work) and I keep low pH, soft water fish!  But I will use elements from the PPS system to try to get my calcium levels off the floor!  Thank you!!

On 10/12/2022 at 2:53 PM, anewbie said:

Be aware that some crypts require hard water; but others will do much better in soft water....

Yes this is what I was thinking.  Yesterday I made a database of a bunch of crypts (based on what Buce Plant sells because they have a lot of variety listed on their site) including the origin of each type.  I've noted the ones that specifically indicate they come from waters flowing over limestone.  Won't be fail proof, but nothing is...it's a good start I think!  I'm sticking with the ones originating from Borneo since that's where almost all my fish are from and they are soft water fish!  

[Jess]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:57 AM, JoeQ said:

Ive never had trouble with crypts until I started doing a lot of water colum ferts,

Interesting!  Yes, I had a similar experience where all the crypts in my smallest (7.5 gal) tank melted after a water change, presumably because of the change.  I try to keep my fertilizer dosing low and frequent to maintain as much stability as possible.  That and infrequent water changes. 

On 10/14/2022 at 2:22 AM, Jenja said:

So you were seeing signs that indicated you needed more calcium? Or you decided you did because it is, in your opinion, too low?

Both.  I saw signs, but also Easy Green doesn't contain any calcium and my tap water is extremely soft (2.6ppm Mg and 9.4ppm Ca, according to my county).  So I know that my calcium bottoms out.  Plus, I can grow a ton of plants and some crypts but not most of them - my survival rate with crypts is just very low.  They don't melt after a change.  Either they survive and take off, growing like gangbusters, or they melt within a few days of introducing them to my tank and never come back (I never remove the roots...I just leave them in the soil to see if they'll grow back).  This has gone on for 2 years.  I would love to choose a hardness level and keep it there (and actually, I kind of have - it's always at 4-5 degrees); the question for me is where is the balance point that is acceptable for my softwater fish (mostly from Borneo blackwater rivers and streams) and also for my crypts.

On 10/15/2022 at 4:14 PM, OutBout said:

I tried out various types of crypts and predictably the hard water ones (C. hudoroi, C. aponogetifolia) croaked. However, other crypts such as the C. nurii group, C. affinis, C. jacobsonii all thrived due to their soft water preference.

This is what I just tried to do yesterday - I made a database of as many crypts as I could find, their origin, and what conditions they like.  It's 98% based on Buce Plant because they have a lot of variety and detail.  So now to the extent that their info is correct, I can try with just the softwater varieties specifically.  Here are the ones I've tried:

Lived: C. spiralis, two probable C. wendtii specimens, one brown and one 'Tropica'.  - these are huge plants now.  The spiralis took over my entire 60 L tank.  I've also got a number of very tiny, weak plants in all my tanks.

Died: C. willisii, C. beckettii, C. retrospiralis, C. spiralis 'Tiger', C. balansae, C. lutea, C. albida costada, C. mioya, C. 'Yujii', C. axelrodi, C. ferruginea 'Sekadauensis', C. petchii, C. hudoroi, C. pontederifolia, C. usteriana, C. undulatus, C. blassii, C. sp. 'Pink Flamingo,' and many, many specimens of every type of C. wendtii and C. parva.  (I keep a database of the plants I've tried and whether they survive - problem is I don't always indicate what tank they're in and most of them die so sometimes I lose track of which ones finally make it.)

On 10/15/2022 at 4:14 PM, OutBout said:

A suggestion to help with this transition is to either cut the leaves off at the time of placing them in the water/planting or cut them when you start noticing malnutritional signs. This will reduce energy expenditure for the plant as it'll try to repair and preserve damaged leaves, and new leaves should follow.

Thank you for this suggestion, as well as all your other suggestions and advice!!! That's very helpful.  I can definitely say that the tissue culture crypts I think died about 100% of the time.  The C. spiralis that did well came from my local LFS, and the other two super healthy ones I can't remember where they came from.  I put root tabs under most of them this weekend so we'll see if that helps.  Maybe the aquasoil isn't enough...strange because it's enough for most of my other plants.  I water change very infrequently - like, once a month - because every time I test my water all the parameters look steady and great (my nitrates rarely ever go above 50 ppm...so one possibility I thought of is they're starving.  About two weeks ago I started increasing fertilizer frequency from once every 5 days to every 3 days.  Too soon to tell if this will help too.  I'm also dosing 1/16 tsp. of CaSO4 every time I fertilize - for the calcium because of my very soft water - but again too soon to tell.  Thank you so much for your help!!!

On 10/15/2022 at 6:00 PM, Cory said:

Normal gravel, mix in crushed coral. Feed tons of root tabs. Neutral pH is gonna lead to success. Crypts melt from water parameter shock typically.

Thanks, Cory!! Too late for me to use normal gravel (but I have chosen that for my next tank haha) but yes I can definitely see that crushed coral is a key to the success with a lot of crypts!  It made total sense once I learned that a lot of them come from waters that flow over limestone.  They all melt days after I add them to my tank...the few that survived have taken off and do really well.  So I think I'm not giving them something they need in order to make that initial adjustment with more success.  I will say that leaving them in my tank in the pots does seem to help.  One melted a bit but the other didn't, and both are still alive!!!

[Cory]

I'd say most of those crypts you are trying, want to be emersed, or very high levels of co2, to keep them under water. I could list 1000 different plants tomorrow. This is what most companies do. However most people can't grow these plants. I only bring on species that most people can have success with.

The aquasoil is working against you, it's lowering your pH, which is going to make it difficult to acclimate plants that are grown. All crypts are grown above water. A big portion will be landed in Florida and grown there at a neutral to high pH. Once you drop them into something below 7, they just shock out typically.

Remember these plants want to be on the banks of a river, not submerged most of the time. any pH changes would be very gradual. This is another reason I don't sell aquasoil, I watch far too many people buy it, high end lights, co2, etc. And just fail. Their water is essentially acid from the soil, plus injecting co2, they don't use air stones etc. This is not how nature wants to be, but it is how nature is forced to be sometimes in the wild.  Just because my lawn can turn brown during the summer and come back in the winter, doesn't mean it wants to be doing that.

 

I realize this will just make sound like a hater. But the crypts we carry are very easy, root tabs, some light, and no fancy substrate. Every thing you add to that, just makes it more difficult.  Once you have success, feel free to experiment as it won't cost you thousands in dead plants, and instead you can propagate and then see what they'll tolerate.

[OutBout]

On 10/15/2022 at 3:41 PM, Jess said:

This is what I just tried to do yesterday - I made a database of as many crypts as I could find, their origin, and what conditions they like.  It's 98% based on Buce Plant because they have a lot of variety and detail.  So now to the extent that their info is correct, I can try with just the softwater varieties specifically.  Here are the ones I've tried:

Lived: C. spiralis, two probable C. wendtii specimens, one brown and one 'Tropica'.  - these are huge plants now.  The spiralis took over my entire 60 L tank.  I've also got a number of very tiny, weak plants in all my tanks.

Died: C. willisii, C. beckettii, C. retrospiralis, C. spiralis 'Tiger', C. balansae, C. lutea, C. albida costada, C. mioya, C. 'Yujii', C. axelrodi, C. ferruginea 'Sekadauensis', C. petchii, C. hudoroi, C. pontederifolia, C. usteriana, C. undulatus, C. blassii, C. sp. 'Pink Flamingo,' and many, many specimens of every type of C. wendtii and C. parva.  (I keep a database of the plants I've tried and whether they survive - problem is I don't always indicate what tank they're in and most of them die so sometimes I lose track of which ones finally make it.)

Thank you for this suggestion, as well as all your other suggestions and advice!!! That's very helpful.  I can definitely say that the tissue culture crypts I think died about 100% of the time.  The C. spiralis that did well came from my local LFS, and the other two super healthy ones I can't remember where they came from.  I put root tabs under most of them this weekend so we'll see if that helps.

Good call on keeping a personal database. In terms of accurate information, I'm not sure that a business that wants your money is the most forthcoming about compatibility. Of course there are the more ethical shops out there, but being in business means they want to sell you products and more of them. For instance, crypts as a group seem to be lumped together as "beginner" plants, and while it's true to a degree, there is still quite a variety that includes many finicky species.

Regardless of this point, have you looked into the website 'The Crypt Pages'? It's a little outdated and anecdotal at times, but the information (however limited) seems mostly in line with how my various cryptocoryne have performed.

As for tissue cultures, 90% of mine perished when I placed them directly into an aquarium. My strategy is to first plant tissue cultures in a high humidity tote that has lights and heat. This allows for the lowly plants to slowly adjust to an environment outside of a a super-rich agar, while staying emersed. The high humidity also helps when if I decide to transfer them to a running aquarium, as I've noticed less leaf loss. Alternatively, crypts that I've kept in relatively medium humidity (60-65%) melted within 24 hours upon being placed in an aquarium.

Edited October 16, 2022 by OutBout

[anewbie]

If your ph is low there are also crypts that require acidic water and other that require otherwise. I will say that in my high-tech tank (inert substrate but co2 injection) the various nurii grow like rabbits as well as pink jacobi and most of the common plants like wenditti. Not sure how apongeton is doing. In my 'low tech' tanks with neutral water most of the listed plants also do well just grow a lot slower; though green greco does struggle and weniditti can grow quite slow.

 

One plant i've not had much luck with is flamingo; I suspect it requires a rich substrate but not sure. 

[Jess]

On 10/15/2022 at 6:57 PM, Cory said:

The aquasoil is working against you, it's lowering your pH, which is going to make it difficult to acclimate plants that are grown. All crypts are grown above water. A big portion will be landed in Florida and grown there at a neutral to high pH. Once you drop them into something below 7, they just shock out typically.

Remember these plants want to be on the banks of a river, not submerged most of the time. any pH changes would be very gradual. This is another reason I don't sell aquasoil, I watch far too many people buy it, high end lights, co2, etc. And just fail. Their water is essentially acid from the soil, plus injecting co2, they don't use air stones etc. This is not how nature wants to be, but it is how nature is forced to be sometimes in the wild.  Just because my lawn can turn brown during the summer and come back in the winter, doesn't mean it wants to be doing that.

Thank you so much for this insight!!!  It's really helpful.  I don't think you sound like a hater...I've watched all your videos so by now I know you're trying your best to ensure the most success for the most people.  Plus, you've got a ridiculous amount of experience with plants.  I only started my journey with aquasoil because at the time I hadn't heard of you yet, haha!)  I might get some of your Easy Planters and try planting the crypts in there with gravel and root tabs.  My next 10-gallon I'm going to use inert substrate with crushed coral added.  My tap water is super soft (2.6 pmm Mg, 9.4 ppm Ca, and 21 ppm KH according to my county) so originally I chose the whole aquasoil+CO2+softwater fish thing because I thought that would be easier given my natural water supply.  But I'm really trying to lean into your straightforward approach, especially because you've mentioned you have (or had) super soft water too!

I appreciate your insights so much.  I especially love your insights about how the plants (and fish) exist in their natural habitats.  That's something really valuable to me.  I really want to see my fish in their natural habitat (Borneo) one day...ok not my fish exactly, but my species of fish.  Thank you! 

[Jess]

On 10/15/2022 at 8:35 PM, OutBout said:

Regardless of this point, have you looked into the website 'The Crypt Pages'?

I have!! I had forgotten about it though.  Thanks for reminding me!!  

On 10/15/2022 at 8:35 PM, OutBout said:

In terms of accurate information, I'm not sure that a business that wants your money is the most forthcoming about compatibility.

Good point.  I figured their info about origin should be accurate, and if they say, "This plant comes from limestone-rich waters in the wild and would appreciate extra calcium as well as iron, phosphate, and nitrates," that could be trusted at least as a starting place.  But after looking through the Crypt Pages, some of the data is conflicting.  Crypt Pages doesn't say much about mineral content of the water...part of my issue is I have never been to Borneo, Thailand, or Sri Lanka, so I have limited understanding of what the natural environments are like.  

On 10/15/2022 at 8:35 PM, OutBout said:

My strategy is to first plant tissue cultures in a high humidity tote that has lights and heat. This allows for the lowly plants to slowly adjust to an environment outside of a a super-rich agar, while staying emersed.

This sounds really cool.  How do you get high humidity in a tote?  Do you use like a layer of water at the bottom?  Or like a paludarium style thing?  I'd love to try something like this.  I really do want to see all these different kinds of crypts grow...I see the images in their natural environment but I'd love to see it myself.  It may be the case that I can't grow them 100% of the time inside my aquarium but maybe instead need to do a paludarium type setting with very high humidity or something... lots more experiments needed if I want to see this genus flourish in front of my eyes!

On 10/16/2022 at 3:35 PM, anewbie said:

If your ph is low there are also crypts that require acidic water and other that require otherwise.

Yeah I've been learning that the micro environments in their native Southeast Asian habitats are highly variable!  Sri Lanka, Borneo, Thailand, etc., are all growing in very different conditions in the wild.  It's been a little tough to figure that out!  The Crypt Pages, as another user mentioned, have helped.

[Cory]

I believe this is where so many people go wrong.  Plant or fish X lives in these parameters in the wild and they'll do well in these parameters. The problem is, the plants and fish are 30 years removed from the wild. They've only known life at uncle jims farm with his local water parameters. Farms don't change parameters to suit, they only keep what suits their parameters.  To me this is no different than watching a documentary on kids in the Sahara desert who walk a couple miles each day in 120 degree heat to get to school and back. Now you have a kid, welp, guess I need to move to Arizona, put a parka on them, and march them to school and back to mimic these parameters.

The trees in my yard are struggling, dying branches and such from no water. Someone could observe, look how drought tolerant these are, they've gone 120 days without water. This gets put on a website and now people think, oh, these trees are great for drought resistance. In reality this tree wants gallons of water every day and is barely hanging on. It's the middle of October, and no rain in Seattle yet.. unheard of. But people have a bias for, I was there and saw this, and therefore this is what is best. Myself included, I often have to remind myself that what I see in Peru, with wild fish and such, doesn't mean that is the norm, and could be abnormal.

Last thing, using our planters with gravel, root tabs and crypts, if put into the tank with the aquasoil, won't change anything for you. It's the aquasoil dragging down the pH that I'd wager is half your problem compared to the parameters that these plants have actually been cultivated in.

[Jess]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:38 PM, Cory said:

Last thing, using our planters with gravel, root tabs and crypts, if put into the tank with the aquasoil, won't change anything for you. It's the aquasoil dragging down the pH that I'd wager is half your problem compared to the parameters that these plants have actually been cultivated in.

That makes sense!  Maybe instead I should try them in my new tank (which is now bare-bottom but will have inert substrate) with root tabs.  I think my pH would be a level 7.0 from the tap, maybe higher after mixing in the crushed coral.  That tank doesn't have CO2 either.  This would be a fun experiment to run!  If/when I have to re-do my existing 3 tanks, I'll probably go with inert substrate + crushed coral next time.

On 10/17/2022 at 12:38 PM, Cory said:

Plant or fish X lives in these parameters in the wild and they'll do well in these parameters.

I've thought a lot about this!  (It may not seem like it, LOL).  Almost all of my fish are wild-caught, according to Wet Spot where I get them (I live in the Southeast), and when I was researching their care I thought about the fact that statements like, "Sphaerichthys selatanensis likes to be kept on the hotter side, over 78 degrees F," is very different (and not a safe generalization) from, "We found these fish in waters that measure 82 degrees F."  (In fact, mine seem to be just fine at 78 for over a year.)  So this is a good reminder that it applies to both fish and plants.

So it is probably the case that in general I have more difficulty with plants (and to a much lesser extent, fish) because my environment is different (and harsher) than what they've become accustomed to.  That makes a lot of sense.  Thank you! 

[OutBout]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:08 AM, Jess said:

This sounds really cool.  How do you get high humidity in a tote?  Do you use like a layer of water at the bottom?  Or like a paludarium style thing?  I'd love to try something like this.  I really do want to see all these different kinds of crypts grow...I see the images in their natural environment but I'd love to see it myself.  It may be the case that I can't grow them 100% of the time inside my aquarium but maybe instead need to do a paludarium type setting with very high humidity or something... lots more experiments needed if I want to see this genus flourish in front of my eyes!

I usually use a clear storage container called Ezy Storage IP67. There's various sizes and it has a rubber seal which allows for moisture to stay in. There's similar products around, but these totes are quite sturdy and fully clear! Using an empty aquarium with a clear lid will have similar results as well.

For high humidity, misting is one way to go and also keeping the substrate moist. Just be sure to have a light and possibly some heating, and be wary of mold developing. One of my experiments I planted tissue cultures of C. purpurea and C. spiralis 'Red' in glass jars with latching lids containing Fluval stratum. Filled the jars with water up to the soil level and placed them in the kitchen that's very low light, and ambient temperature of the house (64-70F). To my surprise the crypts grew, although slowly, and eventually were quite bushy by one-year's time.

If you're interested and have the ability, see if you can apply the the suggestion from @Cory about aquasoil. Take the same crypt and plant it in various substrates to see how they perform. Later on maybe change another parameter and keep a record, but just don't change too many things at once as then you won't know what affects what.

Edited October 17, 2022 by OutBout

[Jess]

Thanks @OutBout!

On 10/17/2022 at 1:38 PM, OutBout said:

If you're interested and have the ability, see if you can apply the the suggestion from @Cory about aquasoil.

I love this idea!  I was already planning to use inert substrate in my new 10 gal, but I like you're idea too.  I'm a scientist, so yes I think I could design a nice experiment to test this!  Now for where to put all the totes/aquariums/etc...LOL.  My partner is so patient, bless him... hahaha

[anewbie]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:38 AM, Cory said:

I believe this is where so many people go wrong.  Plant or fish X lives in these parameters in the wild and they'll do well in these parameters. The problem is, the plants and fish are 30 years removed from the wild. They've only known life at uncle jims farm with his local water parameters. Farms don't change parameters to suit, they only keep what suits their parameters.  To me this is no different than watching a documentary on kids in the Sahara desert who walk a couple miles each day in 120 degree heat to get to school and back. Now you have a kid, welp, guess I need to move to Arizona, put a parka on them, and march them to school and back to mimic these parameters.

The trees in my yard are struggling, dying branches and such from no water. Someone could observe, look how drought tolerant these are, they've gone 120 days without water. This gets put on a website and now people think, oh, these trees are great for drought resistance. In reality this tree wants gallons of water every day and is barely hanging on. It's the middle of October, and no rain in Seattle yet.. unheard of. But people have a bias for, I was there and saw this, and therefore this is what is best. Myself included, I often have to remind myself that what I see in Peru, with wild fish and such, doesn't mean that is the norm, and could be abnormal.

Last thing, using our planters with gravel, root tabs and crypts, if put into the tank with the aquasoil, won't change anything for you. It's the aquasoil dragging down the pH that I'd wager is half your problem compared to the parameters that these plants have actually been cultivated in.

I'm going to disagree with you slightly. I'm going to be setting up a low ph tank in may for a. sp. Abacaixis or  a. bitaeniata (dependent on availability). While you might get away keeping these at higher ph; the eggs won't hatch unless the water is fairly pure - at least for Abacaixis; with a recommendation somewhere around 5.5. Now i want this tank to have plants so i want crypts that can do well in this sort of water (they do exist; and one the reason i'm following this thread). While this sort of aquarium might not cater to your general customer I'm not unique in this sort of setup and these fishes are not unique in this  requirement if they are to thrive or breed successfully. So while your typical angelfish might be 30 years removed and not require such pure water there are interesting fishes available to the hobbyist that still require these conditions and probably (if you want them to reproduce) will always require these conditions.

Edited October 17, 2022 by anewbie

[Jess]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:28 PM, anewbie said:

here are interesting fishes available to the hobbist that still require these conditions and probably (if you want them to reproduce) will always require these conditions.

It's funny - I worried that my post would be too rant-y but I'm glad I made it because I've gotten a lot of feedback and fodder for thought.

I've been very interested in that topic Cory mentioned (and to which you replied) and I'm personally dying to go see my fish and plants in their natural habitat (Southeast Asia, but mostly the Greater Sunda Islands).  I actually found an ichthyologist who works in Singapore and has co-authored over 200 papers on fish from that area...I'm trying to get up the nerve to write him!  

To your point, I've heard from people who keep some of my blackwater fish that their eggs often mold, etc., in higher pHs and that the fish themselves can become more susceptible to certain illnesses at higher pH (what is "higher"? I'm not sure. No one ever really says, LOL).  I haven't been successful at breeding mine but I'm guessing my pH is the least of my problems for breeding - it's probably that the fry either starve or get predated on because I'm not quick and skilled enough to recognize when a pair needs to be moved. 

One thing I have considered is that there are a lot of micro environments in nature.  The crypts I'm trying to grow (or, any plants, for that matter) may in fact not grow at all where my fish are naturally living - even if they both live on the same island.  I think plants are prettier and easier-to-keep in my boxes of water compared to only decaying plant matter, so I want to keep plants...but I have considered that where my fish live the plants may not, even if the fish are actually adapted to that area and not merely tolerating it.  

My point is, and take it for what it's worth because Cory has infinitely more experience than I do at this game, it may be a combination of things.  He's totally right that a lot of the time fish are just adapting and surviving where they can for as long as they can in the wild and just because we find them in certain conditions that doesn't automatically mean those are the optimal ones or that the species may not thrive in other conditions.  Another thing - some fish are more delicate and sensitive than others I think?  My Sphaerichthys selatanensis seem to be a bit more fragile - last year, the temps in all my tanks dipped to 68-70 one unseasonably cold night and my heaters weren't on, and all my fish survived except the group of 12 S. selatanensis in which 3 passed away and the rest of them got stress ich (those 9 survived).  When more fragile fish come in, people may be even more inclined to decide that the fish needs very specific conditions like those in its type locality when in reality maybe the shipping was too hard on them, maybe they were already immunosuppressed, or maybe for some other reason they're just more fragile.  Plus, regarding the plants - they're probably not taken directly from the wild as often - and on the farms like Cory mentioned their conditions may be wildly different.  It may not even matter how many generations of farming they've undergone...we all know crypts are sensitive in general so it may be another case of stochasticity in nature...randomly some of them survive but the probability is low because they're being introduced into a harsh environment.  This is my take though...I'm not trying to speak for Cory, but rather offering my thoughts based on what he wrote and all of his videos that I've seen + stuff I've read, etc..

If you do get some crypts to grow in low pH, softwater conditions, I'll love it if you report back!  I have some growing (I just took pics today so they'll be in my post); it's just that my survival rate is really, really low.  This thread has helped me understand why. 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Jess
grammar corrections