Ram not eating well

[flyingcow]

One of my two Bolivian Rams is struggling with eating. He's the non-dominant one (I think I have 2 males, but can't be 100% sure). The aggression has mostly settled between the two and both fish come right out at feeding time. This little guy will take one small bite, then stop and swim away. That's all he ever eats in the morning. This morning, he came out, but then went back and hung out behind a plant, so I tweezer fed him a chunk of frozen brine shrimp. He took one bite, then wandered off.

He's very thin and at this point probably only 2/3rds the size of the other ram. They were the same size when they came home. No other weird things. Seems like a pretty happy fish. I'll grab a few pictures today. 

Any thoughts on this? This happens with flakes, pellets and frozen brine shrimp.

[flyingcow]

and to add to the complexity, my other ram appears to be bloated! sheesh. I'll fast the tank for a day, then go to mashed peas. I've got a 10 gallon tank that should be ready for fish in another week or so in case I need to separate one of them out.

[Colu]

I would recommend separating them try feeding him up if he still doesn't put on weight after a week  he could have internal parasite 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Colu

[redfish]

@flyingcow I'm seeing similar behavior with my two rams.  One is dominant and doesn't like the other to eat.  The submissive one has been hiding more lately too.  I'm still in the monitor phase and hoping things will settle down over time.  They seem to go through phases of being friends and reverting back to dominant/submissive every other day.  I really don't want a fish hiding all day out of fear.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Since some Bolivian Rams are NOT competitive eaters, you can target feed them as you are doing.  Try feeding sinking foods, but make sure you drop them in several areas in the tank, far apart.  Get the aggressive ram to go feed in one area, and in the meantime, get sinking food to the shy ram. I like Hikari Cichlid Gold sinking pellet (micro size) - you may have to shop around for micro size; most places will sell as small as mini, but if you get mini, you'd need to crush it a bit. Make sure you have a few tunnels in the tank, and plants, even if they are plastic plants.  Just something to break up the line of sight.  Try to feed the shy ram in their favorite area as well, after the aggressive ram is distracted.  Another thing to try is boiled vegetables. Bolivian rams love to pick at stuff on the bottom.  Mine likes boiled yellow squash.  You can cut it into small chunks since you have more than one ram.

I would avoid any type of floating food as well.  They don't like to eat at the top, if given the choice.

What size is your tank @flyingcow?

If worse comes to worst, you can separate the rams.  And it could as @Colu said, be a parasite issue as well.  Or could be several factors.

@Guppysnail

Edited September 19, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[redfish]

Our dominant ram seeks out the other ram regardless of where they both eat.  It's kinda crazy to watch.  Even in a 4 foot tank with lots of structure.  I'm like "Just mind your own business little one.  Be nice."  But it's not listening to me. 😟

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I have one ram as my "centerpiece fish" and used the steps above to help her get some food vs. tetras.  She wasn't quick enough or assertive enough to push through their school to get to food.  I make a secret food stash for her at "her tunnel" - it's a flowerpot with the bottom busted out laying on its side, but I have it tucked under a piece of wood.  I drop the food between the pot and the wood, and the tetras don't notice.  I also have an artificial log. It seems the ram does better when there are decorations that she can swim all the way through.

It sounds like rams vs. other rams is more problematic, as @redfish is experiencing.

[flyingcow]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:11 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Since some Bolivian Rams are NOT competitive eaters, you can target feed them as you are doing.  Try feeding sinking foods, but make sure you drop them in several areas in the tank, far apart.  Get the aggressive ram to go feed in one area, and in the meantime, get sinking food to the shy ram.  Make sure you have a few tunnels in the tank, and plants, even if they are plastic plants.  Just something to break up the line of sight.  Try to feed the shy ram in their favorite area as well, after the aggressive ram is distracted.  Another thing to try is boiled vegetables. Bolivian rams love to pick at stuff on the bottom.  Mine likes boiled yellow squash.  You can cut it into small chunks since you have more than one ram.

I would avoid any type of floating food as well.  They don't like to eat at the top, if given the choice.

What size is your tank @flyingcow?

@Guppysnail

It's a 36 gallon Bowfront. I have the two of them in there with 10 Black Phantom tetras and a couple of Nerite snails. Today, I target fed the smaller Ram with my long tweezers and a chunk of frozen brine shrimp. He took one bite, then swam off. The other Ram was at the other side of the tank. Even without targeting, he'd swim up to some brine shrimp, grab a huge chunk, take one bite, then swim away leaving the rest. The big one is looking a little bloated and uncomfortable. The past few days, the dominant ram has been leaving the little guy mostly alone. In fact, I just saw the little guy push around the dominant one. Here's a few pictures:

The big guy, his ventral fins have been tight since yesterday:

The little guy:

I'm currently feeding the tank with some flakes and a half a cube of frozen brine shrimp per day. I have pellets as well, but the LFS recommended Frozen Brine Shrimp to help ease the aggression (frankly helping them poop so they're less cranky). 

Edited September 19, 2022 by flyingcow

[flyingcow]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:19 AM, redfish said:

Our dominant ram seeks out the other ram regardless of where they both eat.  It's kinda crazy to watch.  Even in a 4 foot tank with lots of structure.  I'm like "Just mind your own business little one.  Be nice."  But it's not listening to me. 😟

Mine was doing this as well until a shipment of plants came in that are mostly destined for my 10 gallon tank. I chucked them in to this tank for the moment, and he chilled out fast!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Hmm. So the bloating doesn't go away between meals, I take it?  

The little guy is so adorable.

[flyingcow]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:52 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Hmm. So the bloating doesn't go away between meals, I take it?  

The little guy is so adorable.

yeah, it doesn't seem to improve. He seems otherwise ok, but last night had about 2 minutes of kinda freaking out in a corner, but then stopped and went back to normal. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 9/19/2022 at 10:55 AM, flyingcow said:

yeah, it doesn't seem to improve. He seems otherwise ok, but last night had about 2 minutes of kinda freaking out in a corner, but then stopped and went back to normal. 

Aw, poor fella.

It does sound like the big guy has an issue.  @Colu do you have a food recipe to help w/ bloating like this?

I think you are on the right track with the peas. I've noticed other hobbyists use peas to help with digestion.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[redfish]

The fin orientation is how mine are acting also.  The main ram roams the tank and at times the second ram does too.  I never know how they are going to act day to day.  They really don't care about any other fish in the tank, only each other so I really hope they calm down and chill.

[flyingcow]

I do need to point out that I had a temperature incident on Saturday where the tank dipped to 70 degrees. I discovered the hard way that a 200W heater won't be enough to get us through the winter in this tank. I have since added a second heater and was able to slowly bring it back up to 78. The big guy started showing problems yesterday evening, about 36 hours after this dip in temperature.

[flyingcow]

Well the big guy is using his ventral fins again, and the swelling looks like it's starting to go down a bit, so here's hoping I can focus my efforts on getting little guy to eat. Still mashed peas tomorrow.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

That’s good to hear. 👍 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/19/2022 at 8:08 AM, flyingcow said:

I do need to point out that I had a temperature incident on Saturday where the tank dipped to 70 degrees. I discovered the hard way that a 200W heater won't be enough to get us through the winter in this tank

I didn't know or realize how warm rams had to be.  I kept looking up temps on google and what not and completely screwed up putting mine too low.  I miss him.  Coolest little fish.  I moved him from a bowfront to a 75G and he had the world to swim in, but didn't make it 😞 .  I feel so bad.  I am thankful yours is doing well.  In my 75, I ended up having to run 2x 250-300W heaters, but it all depends on ambient (air / room) temp vs. what you need.  In my case ambient dips ridiculously low to the point of snow on the other side of the wall at times and the insulation in the walls isn't really working all that well.  One thing to note with heaters, totally just saying this for clarity, is that flow helps to distribute that heat as well.  Something to keep in mind with longer / larger tanks.

I hope things improve for your ram, catching up on the thread and checking things out with what's going on to see if there's any advice I can give.

 

[nabokovfan87]

In terms of feeding, rams can be particular.  Something like this video below is a good place to start to get an idea of what they want.  I see the photos of your tank and there is some "hides" so to speak, but if your ram has something with more cover, that would help to have a place to call their own.  Mine literally spent it's time in a wall of jungle val that has a 2" dia opening and he claimed it as his cave.  Vertical cover on 3 sides is what you're looking for so they can defend one opening.  Providing 2-3 of these hides is going to give you a few places to drop food.  That would help with any actual feeding issues and then you can isolate behaviors and illness at that point.
 

 

Dean uses a pot with the bottom broken out and then essentially tucks it into a corner.  I've also seen pots on their side buried into the substrate partially.

[flyingcow]

Now that the big buddy seems to be doing better, I just have to figure out little buddy.

I've tried targeted feeding, and he swims away after one bite. I'm starting to think separating them for a while is a good path forward. I'll have a 10 gallon ready in a few days.

The question becomes, do I pull out the big aggressive buddy and let the little guy gain some confidence in his own space, or do I pull out the little guy to focus on him and getting him to eat and grow?

On 9/20/2022 at 1:24 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I didn't know or realize how warm rams had to be.  I kept looking up temps on google and what not and completely screwed up putting mine too low.  I miss him.  Coolest little fish.  I moved him from a bowfront to a 75G and he had the world to swim in, but didn't make it 😞 .  I feel so bad.  I am thankful yours is doing well.  In my 75, I ended up having to run 2x 250-300W heaters, but it all depends on ambient (air / room) temp vs. what you need.  In my case ambient dips ridiculously low to the point of snow on the other side of the wall at times and the insulation in the walls isn't really working all that well.  One thing to note with heaters, totally just saying this for clarity, is that flow helps to distribute that heat as well.  Something to keep in mind with longer / larger tanks.

I hope things improve for your ram, catching up on the thread and checking things out with what's going on to see if there's any advice I can give.

 

Yeah, I learned the 5W per gallon rule of thumb only works if you keep the room at 70-72 degrees. At $6 / gallon for heating oil, that ain't gonna happen. If I estimate using a 1/2W per gallon per degree differential, I need 300W even in my tiny 36. I went with 400 total to be safe. Also, Bolivian Rams are better suited to cooler water than German Blues. That's probably why they were ok.

Edited September 20, 2022 by flyingcow

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 9/20/2022 at 6:59 AM, flyingcow said:

Now that the big buddy seems to be doing better, I just have to figure out little buddy.

I've tried targeted feeding, and he swims away after one bite. I'm starting to think separating them for a while is a good path forward. I'll have a 10 gallon ready in a few days.

The question becomes, do I pull out the big aggressive buddy and let the little guy gain some confidence in his own space, or do I pull out the little guy to focus on him and getting him to eat and grow?

Yeah, I learned the 5W per gallon rule of thumb only works if you keep the room at 70-72 degrees. At $6 / gallon for heating oil, that ain't gonna happen. If I estimate using a 1/2W per gallon per degree differential, I need 300W even in my tiny 36. I went with 400 total to be safe. Also, Bolivian Rams are better suited to cooler water than German Blues. That's probably why they were ok.

I vote the little guy gets the big tank. That will give him an opportunity to establish territory. Put the big guy in timeout. 😉

Click here for DIY ram tunnel

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:24 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I miss him.  Coolest little fish.

Time for another @nabokovfan87.  You are equipped with ram knowledge and will have success and enjoyment.

[redfish]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:07 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I vote the little guy gets the big tank. That will give him an opportunity to establish territory. Put the big guy in timeout. 😉

Click here for DIY ram tunnel

I'm debating this same topic.  Which ram do I separate for a while and see if behavior changes again.  I've been chasing the bigger one when he gets aggressive to the smaller one.  The smaller one is hiding too much but they swam around fine last night.  The big one is bullying the smaller one again this AM.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:00 AM, redfish said:

I'm debating this same topic.  Which ram do I separate for a while and see if behavior changes again.  I've been chasing the bigger one when he gets aggressive to the smaller one.  The smaller one is hiding too much but they swam around fine last night.  The big one is bullying the smaller one again this AM.

Every time I think my Ram (now named Snoopy) needs a friend, I am going to remember this post. 😳   (The little gold snail is Woodstock. )

@redfish maybe you need more rams because in some species there needs be a certain male-to-female ratio for them to be peaceful.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[redfish]

On 9/20/2022 at 9:09 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Every time I think my Ram (now named Snoopy) needs a friend, I am going to remember this post. 😳   (The little gold snail is Woodstock. )

@redfish maybe you need more rams because in some species there needs be a certain male-to-female ratio for them to be peaceful.

I thought about this.  I also thought about adding more dither fish since we only have a few right now.  The Kuhli loach was crashing into the big ram last night while doing laps and the ram just looked at him.  I don't know if adding more guppies will change the behavior or if more rams would too.  I don't want to compound the problem of more fighting rams.  I might have to return one of the rams to the LFS or swap for a female if we can sex one appropriately. 

The big ram definitely hunts down the small one to remind him who's boss.  He swims across the tank to tell him so instead of just being happy in his area.

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/20/2022 at 6:41 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Time for another @nabokovfan87. 

Definitely.  I'm working on a 15G moss tank for something like that. We'll see what happens.

On 9/20/2022 at 7:00 AM, redfish said:

Which ram do I separate for a while and see if behavior changes again.

you just move the hardscape on the tank to force them to claim new territories. That's one of the ways to reset the aggression.