Goldie Blue Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 (edited) Tank parameters: Ammonia - 0 Nitrites - 0 Nitrates - 10 pH - 8.0 (always this high) Temp - 80 Medications already used: Med trio (1 round of treatment) Kanaplex in food Jungle Fungus Clear (2 full rounds of treatment) Level 1 aquarium salt dosing in QT tank for 3 weeks IAL It's been months of on and off treatment for my poor Goldie Blue, thinking he is getting better and then he gets fin rot again. Quick background for anyone who has not been following my saga, he was in a 55g tank when the fin rot first started. He had started to develop fin rot in that tank, and the entire tank went through the med trio (about 8 months ago) due to another issue. Then about 4-5 months ago I treated the whole tank with 2 full doses/rounds of Jungle Fungus Clear along with feeding Kanaplex in food. From there he looked like he was improving but then a few weeks later a chunk of his tail fell off, and I ended up taking him out of his 55g into a QT tank where he was on level 1 aquarium salt dosing for about 3 weeks. He showed great improvement, and I moved him into his own Fluval Flex 9 once it had cycled. I've been loading the Flex with IAL, so dark you can barely see in there (seep leaves in hot water, then add the leaf and tea to water) and then it was advised that maybe his floaty log could be causing issues. Over the course of the last 2 weeks I have fully replaced his XL log (which was his FAVORITE place ever) with 2 smooth black tubes I got on Etsy, a SeeShelter which was already in there, and a kind of plastic "log" enclosure that seems like all the edges are smooth when I run my fingers on the insides. I'm attaching pics of these new items to get your thoughts. After looking closer at the logs, they sure as heck had splits and grooves and rough edges inside. There are two java ferns I have attached to glass cups on the bottom. That is all that is in his new tank, no decorations with sharp edges. He will stick himself between the glass and the tubes from time to time, but I don't see how this might hurt his fins. The bottom tips of them are bloody and ragged again, and now today I noticed the black sand substrate I have in his tank is sticking to the bottom areas of his fins. How should I proceed? Take him out into QT tank again? Treat his whole tank? Should I remove the sand substrate completely? Could the sand have caused the irritations and fin rot? On top of all this now I see tiny white worms all over the glass and water column in his new tank. I am hoping these are detritus worms, but figure I'd try to get a pic and see what you guys think. I am so sad and feel defeated, I just want my sweet boy to feel better. He's the best fish ever. Edited August 1, 2022 by Goldie Blue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anitstuk Posted August 1, 2022 Share Posted August 1, 2022 Poor Goldie Blue 😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) On 8/1/2022 at 4:35 PM, Goldie Blue said: pH - 8.0 (always this high) This might be causing stress. It's something to look into. I don't know who keeps them for breeding here or anything like that, but I would be interested at what "optimal" PH is for these guys. We know what caused the initial stress and that should all be resolved. Just a note. On 8/1/2022 at 4:35 PM, Goldie Blue said: After looking closer at the logs, they sure as heck had splits and grooves and rough edges inside. There are two java ferns I have attached to glass cups on the bottom. That sucks. I don't know if it's worth the risk of sanding given how full and gigantic his fins are normally. On 8/1/2022 at 4:35 PM, Goldie Blue said: He will stick himself between the glass and the tubes from time to time, but I don't see how this might hurt his fins. The bottom tips of them are bloody and ragged again, and now today I noticed the black sand substrate I have in his tank is sticking to the bottom areas of his fins. Someone else can comment as well, but they don't look like detritus worms, or.... I should say.... These look very different than the worms I had. They look flat, but they don't look like planaria. They look like the rhabdocoela type to me. On 8/1/2022 at 4:35 PM, Goldie Blue said: How should I proceed? Take him out into QT tank again? Treat his whole tank? Should I remove the sand substrate completely? Could the sand have caused the irritations and fin rot? Depending on how you want to handle it.... I would start GB on the Neolplex as soon as you can in either tank. That is to give him the best chance to get rid of this thing once and for all. If that doesn't work after 1-2 doses, then you'd be looking at the final antibacterial med. Adding Ich-X as well during this treatment would not be a bad idea. Salt, also is very typical in this situation. As for the worms..... I treated mine with Paracleanse (I was treating with paracleanse, then the worms showed up). It did not make a dent with that at all, but due to just general discovery of the issue and manual removed I got rid of a lot of the worms. Then I dosed salt and that seemed to work, but I did still see a lot of them active. I am now finishing treatment for parasites with Expel-P and I haven't seen any (fingers crossed). I would recommend starting with a big cleaning, check the pump impeller, clean everything really well to make sure. These buggers look like almost nothing, but it's actually a giant stack of worms. this was where I saw mine. In your case, I would start with the big cleaning as mentioned but use something (not your hand) and try to disturb the heck out of the substrate and gravel vac and clean everything as much as you can. Use the pinch method that Cory uses to vacuum the heck out of the sand and you'll see a ton of them get removed. At night is also the best time to look for them, that I've found. Hopefully someone can provide a better ID, but that seemingly worked for mine. Edited August 2, 2022 by nabokovfan87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Blue Posted August 2, 2022 Author Share Posted August 2, 2022 On 8/1/2022 at 9:05 PM, nabokovfan87 said: These look very different than the worms I had. They look flat, but they don't look like planaria. They look like the rhabdocoela type to me. Yeah when I had detritus worms in the 55 gallon, they were much, much bigger than these. That is why I placed my finger next to it for size ref, upon looking closer I could see a dozen or maybe more crawling all over the glass, but from afar you wouldn't ever catch it. They are also flying around the water. So disgusting! As I mentioned before, this tank is in a bad location, so this might be a good time to move it and do a big clean. I thought I would love the ease of this Flex, but that back panel area is actually a total pain to clean and service. On 8/1/2022 at 9:05 PM, nabokovfan87 said: I would start with the big cleaning as mentioned but use something (not your hand) and try to disturb the heck out of the substrate and gravel vac and clean everything as much as you can. Since this is fine sand substrate I am not sure how well this will work. I am half temped to just remove all the sand and let this tank be bare floor. The plants in there are attached to moveable stuff, so I don't need to have any. I am wondering if this sand caused irritation on his fins again, since it's at the bottom tips that drag along the floor of things. I am going to Aquashella this weekend, maybe I can pick some brains there on the issue. All I know is I am so tired of feeling like I take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. I need to decide if I want to move him to medicate him or not, but I think the Neoplex is my next step for sure. I just want this guy to be happy and healthy and I keep bombarding him with meds and salt 😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) On 8/2/2022 at 12:41 PM, Goldie Blue said: Since this is fine sand substrate I am not sure how well this will work. I am half temped to just remove all the sand and let this tank be bare floor. The plants in there are attached to moveable stuff, so I don't need to have any. I am wondering if this sand caused irritation on his fins again, since it's at the bottom tips that drag along the floor of things. Shouldn't be, but either way it should work out fine. I think a lot of the concern is because you're thinking that you're making things worse. Everything I am seeing, you're doing everything I would do and you're doing everything right. I think that temps or something caused the bacteria to perk back up and he's just been slowly recovering and trying to fight this thing off. I don't see the sand in his fins at all. I was trying to spot it to make sure it wasn't ich. With sand, I generally just use my hands and toss all the crap in the water column. With sand you can just use the siphon end and vacuum like any normal substrate. You'll suck up some of the sand, but it's all fine. I highly recommend the pinching method. The worms are a pain, especially on the water column and not having a real ID on them. Maybe @Biotope Biologist has an id for your worms or a suggestion to search down. At the very least my only real concern is if there is something to eat them, getting them in control, and verifying they aren't dangerous to humans. How long as he been off meds or salt at this point in time, if he has? Do you have Carbon you can run? I would try to wait 1-2 weeks as long as symptoms don't worsen. On 8/2/2022 at 12:41 PM, Goldie Blue said: I need to decide if I want to move him to medicate him or not, but I think the Neoplex is my next step for sure. I just want this guy to be happy and healthy and I keep bombarding him with meds and salt 😞 With gram negative and with Ich, I would suggest treating the tank itself. Sterilize / clean the equipment and let it air dry as best you can. UV also works to sterilize, so even having the stuff sit outside for a day works. On 8/2/2022 at 12:41 PM, Goldie Blue said: I am going to Aquashella this weekend, maybe I can pick some brains there on the issue. All I know is I am so tired of feeling like I take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. Definitely have fun, and definitely don't bring a fish home right now! 😂 Edited August 2, 2022 by nabokovfan87 clarification 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Blue Posted August 2, 2022 Author Share Posted August 2, 2022 On 8/2/2022 at 3:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said: I think a lot of the concern is because you're thinking that you're making things worse. Everything I am seeing, you're doing everything I would do and you're doing everything right. You're exactly right about this, that is why it is so sad, because on paper I have done/am doing everything I should be. I really thought he was getting better, now here we are again. And this time I can't put it on the flow in the bigger tank 😞 On 8/2/2022 at 3:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said: At the very least my only real concern is if there is something to eat them, getting them in control, and verifying they aren't dangerous to humans. Yeah, and GB is the only one in that tank, no snails or anything, wanted to keep stress low and rule out a lot of things. So I really hope these worms aren't harmful. On 8/2/2022 at 3:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said: How long as he been off meds or salt at this point in time, if he has? Do you have Carbon you can run? I would try to wait 1-2 weeks as long as symptoms don't worsen. He has been off meds since before he even went into the Flex, and before he was in QT tank...trying to think how long it's been but it's at least 2 months. He has been on light dose of salt and IAL (heavy dosing of IAL) ever since. I do have carbon, and I also have a Poly Filter my LFS said was good for purifying water. It's not in there right now, but it can be. The Flex has not been medicated with anything other than salt and IAL. On 8/2/2022 at 3:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said: Definitely have fun, and definitely don't bring a fish home right now! 😂 Ooof that is a tall order 🤣 my poor 55 gallon only has 6 fish in it, and (fingers crossed) has been problem free for months now lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 2, 2022 Share Posted August 2, 2022 (edited) On 8/2/2022 at 3:19 PM, Goldie Blue said: I also have a Poly Filter my LFS said was good for purifying water. It's not in there right now, but it can be. Cut a square, it doesn't have to be big at all, and then drop it in the tank and see what color it turns. If you have a weird issue it'll alert you. It's one of those things I wish I had on hand just for this scenario. Run the carbon for 24-48 hours, 50% WC and then I would proceed with meds immediately. On 8/2/2022 at 3:19 PM, Goldie Blue said: And this time I can't put it on the flow in the bigger tank 😞 Chin up, he's definitely still recovering! The big issue has been that wound on the body. Have to get through that, then the rest will come. Edited August 2, 2022 by nabokovfan87 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biotope Biologist Posted August 3, 2022 Share Posted August 3, 2022 Just caught up with this. A few things I have of note: -the worms are rhabdocoela - removing substrate will cause more stress than good - I do not see any damaged or unhealthy fin structure on your betta. For fin rot you are looking for agitated blood vessels and general redness. I do not see any of these things. If you care to upload more pics of the fins that’d be helpful - ornamental betta fins will be subject to damage over their lifetime. Bettas love exploring and it’s like doing so in a long wedding dress. It’s not going to look fresh off the showroom floor, but it also doesn’t mean he is unhealthy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Blue Posted August 4, 2022 Author Share Posted August 4, 2022 On 8/3/2022 at 11:32 AM, Biotope Biologist said: the worms are rhabdocoela @Biotope Biologist Thank you for the ID! On 8/3/2022 at 11:32 AM, Biotope Biologist said: If you care to upload more pics of the fins that’d be helpful GB has been recovering from fin rot that was pretty bad a few months back, he lost an entire piece of his tail at one point. The areas of concern are at the very bottom where there are red spots. His fins are translucent but have been doing much better lately. He is starting to lose his color again, it's been flip flopping like this for months. When he is what appears to be healthy, he looks like my profile pic. When he is stressed he turns almost totally yellow/white. Any input/suggestions are more than welcome! @nabokovfan87 I have the Poly Filter in the tank, but can't tell what is happening as it's very dark in the back of the chamber. I figure I will pull it out tomorrow morning and check the color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 4, 2022 Share Posted August 4, 2022 The part that always concerns me is the color of the gill plate / gills. I read up and this is normal, but always looks odd to me that it's black vs. red. On 8/3/2022 at 5:24 PM, Goldie Blue said: GB has been recovering from fin rot that was pretty bad a few months back, he lost an entire piece of his tail at one point. It was fin rot that progressed to body rot. Just a note. On 8/3/2022 at 5:24 PM, Goldie Blue said: @nabokovfan87 I have the Poly Filter in the tank, but can't tell what is happening as it's very dark in the back of the chamber. I figure I will pull it out tomorrow morning and check the color. Sounds good. You can float it in the main chamber as well, it won't harm the fish at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Blue Posted August 6, 2022 Author Share Posted August 6, 2022 (edited) I did some deep cleaning and maintenance on GB's tank today. Those worms were having a field day on the IAL and matter on the bottom, so all that is gone for the time being. The tannins and chunks of IAL matter had clogged up the pump/tube pretty good so I took all that apart and cleaned it out, it was really disgusting. From now on I will just put the tea I brew with the leaves in and leave the leaf itself out. I can already tell a good chunk of those nightmare fuel worms are gone. 🤢 His fins actually looked okay today, the red spots were gone, but he still had some tiny pieces of sand stuck to the areas that drag. I pulled the Poly Filter out, it was in for 2 days, and this was the color @nabokovfan87. I have a new piece in there that (from what I can tell) looks like it's turning either DARK blue or black. I also tossed a small piece in the main part of the tank but it's been 4 hours and it's still not changed color. Also, it's so frustrating that I spent like $80 bucks replacing his craptastic logs with smooth 3D tunnels and tubes for him to then go and smoosh himself between the glass and the tube lol. I love this guy but he is going to give me a stroke one of these days. Hopefully the large water change, deep clean, and smooth hiding places will see us heading in the right direction. Edited August 6, 2022 by Goldie Blue 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/5/2022 at 7:33 PM, Goldie Blue said: General nitrates, so no real issues with anything. On 8/5/2022 at 7:33 PM, Goldie Blue said: The tannins and chunks of IAL matter had clogged up the pump/tube pretty good so I took all that apart and cleaned it out, it was really disgusting. Strike another one. Worms = equipment checks 😞 On 8/5/2022 at 7:33 PM, Goldie Blue said: Also, it's so frustrating that I spent like $80 bucks replacing his craptastic logs with smooth 3D tunnels and tubes for him to then go and smoosh himself between the glass and the tube lol. I love this guy but he is going to give me a stroke one of these days. Do you have a shop local that has mopani? Maybe that's all he wants? Something like this, would just give him a place to have some cover depending on the piece. Flat side to rest on, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 6, 2022 Share Posted August 6, 2022 On 8/5/2022 at 7:33 PM, Goldie Blue said: I have a new piece in there that (from what I can tell) looks like it's turning either DARK blue or black. blue = copper (usually light) black = nitrates / organics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Blue Posted August 7, 2022 Author Share Posted August 7, 2022 On 8/6/2022 at 12:42 AM, nabokovfan87 said: Do you have a shop local that has mopani? Maybe that's all he wants? I really wanted to put a beautiful piece like that in his tank, but I am removing any risk of him hurting his fins for now. There were so many awesome pieces of wood at Aquashella today, I was so tempted but I passed for now. He props up between the plant leaves a lot more often lately, but then I come home and see this lol... I swear this fish will be the death of me, but I love that grumpy lil face so much. On a positive, his tank is literally CRYSTAL clear, like that floating on air look every hobbyist strives for. That Poly Filter stuff is fantastic, I am going to add it to my other tanks and see what results I get. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabokovfan87 Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 On 8/6/2022 at 5:26 PM, Goldie Blue said: I really wanted to put a beautiful piece like that in his tank, but I am removing any risk of him hurting his fins for now. There were so many awesome pieces of wood at Aquashella today, I was so tempted but I passed for now. He props up between the plant leaves a lot more often lately, but then I come home and see this lol... You can suction cup some anubias or something similar to the glass and it'll work well for him to bask and relax in. Anubias (normal), coffeefolia, barteri, nana (non-petite), and Nangi should all work for you. Barteri/coffeefolia are very similar and have similar size leaves which will are probably the goldilocks size for Mr. GB. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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