Is it alright to continuously use ammonia detoxifier like Prime for longer than a couple days?

[Demobanana]

Can I continuously use ammonia detoxifier for an indefinite time span (or like 3 weeks) if I have something to take the nitrates out and small water changes or top offs to take care of whatever might be building up in the water? Also I know a lot of detoxifier directions only specify the ratio of detoxifier needed with gallons, but I have a truckload of ammonia, do you guys think it would work the same for 3 and 10 ppm f ammonia? Or is it just different for every manufacturer? 

[nabokovfan87]

@DemobananaCan you elaborate on the situation you're going through?

I am slightly confused by this part:
 

On 7/23/2022 at 7:58 PM, Demobanana said:

Also I know a lot of detoxifier directions only specify the ratio of detoxifier needed with gallons, but I have a truckload of ammonia, do you guys think it would work the same for 3 and 10 ppm f ammonia? Or is it just different for every manufacturer? 

Essentially you're going to dose per the label.  All of the labels may say that you can dose 5x or 10x dose in an emergency situation.

The key being, find out what is leeching ammonia, or remove the fish temporarily while the tank stabilizes.

From Seachem:

Quote

FAQ: How often can I use Seachem Prime®?

As often as every day, although this typically isn't necessary.  Prime® is safe to overdose by up to 5x the recommended amount in any given 48 hour period in most systems (See FAQ: Can I overdose Prime®? for exceptions).  That means it is typically fine to dose Prime® every day, or even two times per day in most systems.  Prime® breaks down completely after 48 hours, so there is no risk of a buildup of this product in the aquarium system over time.

FAQ: Is it possible to overdose Seachem Prime®?

Prime® is very safe and quite difficult to overdose to the point of harming tank inhabitants, but a large enough overdose can start to deplete the system of oxygen.  This effect is temporary, typically lasting an hour at most, but in case of extreme overdose can be significant enough to harm fish.  The standard dose of 5 mL per 50 gallons of water is recommended for standard tank setups, and an overdose of up to 5x this amount can be done to detoxify ammonia and nitrite in the water. However, there are a few situations under which a larger dose of Prime may not be safe for your system.

Your tank is already low in oxygen

A tank with an exceptionally high bio-load, high temperature, or poor circulation is likely quite low in oxygen, so reducing the oxygen any further may be dangerous to tank inhabitants.  In this case, using a half dose of Prime® or increasing the oxygen content of the tank is recommended.

You are using another product that also reduces oxygen

Most conditioners that clear away chlorine and chloramine, products that detoxify ammonia and nitrite, as well as some medications will reduce oxygen levels in the tank.  Like Prime®, the effect of these products on the oxygen level of the tank usually dissipates within an hour, meaning it is typically safe to use them on the same system as long as an hour or so is left between the doses.  

For further information on which Seachem® products fall into this category, see FAQ: Can I use Prime® with ______?

FAQ: When should I use the emergency dose of 5 x the recommended amount of Seachem Prime®?

If your ammonia or nitrite levels are above 2 ppm, you can safely use up to 5 x the recommended amount.

Edited July 24, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Cinnebuns]

On 7/23/2022 at 9:58 PM, Demobanana said:

Can I continuously use ammonia detoxifier for an indefinite time span (or like 3 weeks) if I have something to take the nitrates out and small water changes or top offs to take care of whatever might be building up in the water? Also I know a lot of detoxifier directions only specify the ratio of detoxifier needed with gallons, but I have a truckload of ammonia, do you guys think it would work the same for 3 and 10 ppm f ammonia? Or is it just different for every manufacturer? 

From my knowledge prime is safe up to 5x the dose. I can't say for sure but I would think it is safe long term because that is one way people do fish-in cycles which can take months.  Most guides I've seen suggesting this way to do a fish in cycle typically suggest to do a water change if your ammonia + nitrite exceeds 5ppm. 

One thing to keep in mind is the oxygen levels. The dechlorinator part of it will depleat oxygen while it's trying to bond with choline. Since there is no chlorine to bond to, it bonds to oxygen.

[Brandon p]

Why not bigger water changes? That would be better.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/23/2022 at 9:08 PM, Brandon p said:

Why not bigger water changes? That would be better.

I'm guessing the substrate is leeching for ammonia to be that high.  Waiting to hear details 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

I wanted to add this. There's a few threads this would be helpful for, but needless to say, if you're using prime like this please check it out!

 

 

[Demobanana]

On 7/23/2022 at 8:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@DemobananaCan you elaborate on the situation you're going through?

I am slightly confused by this part:
 

Essentially you're going to dose per the label.  All of the labels may say that you can dose 5x or 10x dose in an emergency situation.

The key being, find out what is leeching ammonia, or remove the fish temporarily while the tank stabilizes.

From Seachem:

oh ok forgot you could just dose more than the label said. And I have no idea whats leeching ammonia, I'm assuming its the water changes on the tank since the tap comes out to .5 ppm ammonia, and my tanks not converting it to nitrates fast enough

On 7/23/2022 at 9:08 PM, Brandon p said:

Why not bigger water changes? That would be better.

the thing is I have done water changes, its just the water from the tap that I change with has ammonia in it, even testing it now. 

On 7/23/2022 at 11:49 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'm guessing the substrate is leeching for ammonia to be that high.  Waiting to hear details 🙂

There is some molm here and there but I doubt its the main cause, I think my plants and filter just arent converting the ammonia fast enough, and I was putting more in when I water changed the tank

[face]

if i were you i would do a 90% water change even with .5 ppm ammonia it your tap water  it should bring it down to 1 or 2 ppm

what test  kit are you using and what are the rest of your readings? any other information might be helpful to.

[Brandon p]

On 7/24/2022 at 9:00 AM, face said:

if i were you i would do a 90% water change even with .5 ppm ammonia it your tap water  it should bring it down to 1 or 2 ppm

what test  kit are you using and what are the rest of your readings? any other information might be helpful to.

That’s a big water change but we each things different I would do 50 several days in a row but they could both work. I have water conditions that a 90% change would shock my fish.

[CKetchum]

Have you tried adding some stability or Fritz 7 beneficial bacterial? I am not too familiar with Seachem products. I think Prime is a WC, neutralizer and doesn't contain bacteria. Maybe more bacteria and live plants would help with the NH3 load? 

[face]

i agree its a lot if you're  tank water is different than your tap less is fine but change water should be the first step 10 ppm is toxic no matter how you treat it in my opinion.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:53 AM, Demobanana said:

oh ok forgot you could just dose more than the label said. And I have no idea whats leeching ammonia, I'm assuming its the water changes on the tank since the tap comes out to .5 ppm ammonia, and my tanks not converting it to nitrates fast enough

What you're seeing might not even be ammonia but chloramines in the water.  I would suggest running a test.
1.  Take a sample of your tap water, test it for PH, KH, GH, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates
2.  Take that same sample of water and aerate it for 24 hours with an airstone.  Repeat these tests.  These are your "normal" water parameters after off-gassing.
3.  Compare this to your tank water test results.  These are the changes you'd expect to see during a water change.

If you do have ammonia or chlorine in the water from the tap I would highly recommend setting up the filter to be slightly overkill as well as, if possible, some way to precondition your water before you do a water change with it.

The biggest thing that needs to happen is to find out what is leeching ammonia or causing the results in the water testing that is causing concern.  What substrate is being used in the tank, what is stocking, and what is your feeding regime like?

[Flumpweesel]

Why do we think something is leaching?

I would water change to get the ammonia down.

And do you have live plants, pathos could probably go a long way in helping you here. What size tank are you working on and who is living in it? This could be a stocking out over feeding issue as well.

If you are taking about a smaller tank you could set up a conditioning tub using plants to reduce the ammonia from the tap and use that for water changes if you can't have plants in the tank.

[_Eric_]

On 7/23/2022 at 9:58 PM, Demobanana said:

Can I continuously use ammonia detoxifier for an indefinite time span (or like 3 weeks) if I have something to take the nitrates out and small water changes or top offs to take care of whatever might be building up in the water? Also I know a lot of detoxifier directions only specify the ratio of detoxifier needed with gallons, but I have a truckload of ammonia, do you guys think it would work the same for 3 and 10 ppm f ammonia? Or is it just different for every manufacturer? 

I’ve use Prime for an extended period but the issue you will run into is it can only detoxify 1 ppm per dose and doing 10x the dose will be too much to be safe for the fish.  

[Demobanana]

On 7/24/2022 at 6:00 AM, face said:

if i were you i would do a 90% water change even with .5 ppm ammonia it your tap water  it should bring it down to 1 or 2 ppm

what test  kit are you using and what are the rest of your readings? any other information might be helpful to.

maybe, I'll try it and test it. The test kit is the API master kit, nitrite and nitrate are like 0 (I thought a few months was enough for a filter to cycle, guess something's going on with mine) and if it helps Ph is around 6, which is weird bc the last time I tested it was around 8. Im pretty sure my county lowered the ammonia level recently and that must've affected my tanks Ph, as well as the weird water change schedule I had.

On 7/24/2022 at 6:14 AM, Brandon p said:

That’s a big water change but we each things different I would do 50 several days in a row but they could both work. I have water conditions that a 90% change would shock my fish.

I'm up for trying it but do you think that much water changes so fast would affect my bacteria (that either isn't there or isn't converting any ammonia) in my filter/substrate?  The biggest thing I'm worried about is my bacteria colony and all my plants growing in there. For context theyre all fast growing stems like foxtail, rotala, and bacopa. Also have java moss, and I've heard plants dont do well to fluctuating conditions.

[Demobanana]

On 7/24/2022 at 6:35 AM, CKetchum said:

Have you tried adding some stability or Fritz 7 beneficial bacterial? I am not too familiar with Seachem products. I think Prime is a WC, neutralizer and doesn't contain bacteria. Maybe more bacteria and live plants would help with the NH3 load? 

 Im not trying to add bacteria, my initial plan was to add the prime so the ammonia would be temporarily locked into nitrate, except I would keep adding it until all the nitrate was taken up by my plants and all the ammonia was gone. And I estimate around a good half of my 10g is all plants, and they've clearly been taking some of the ammonia. I set up the tank around a month or 2 ago and I threw some plants (for which plants, look above) and some rocks in a bag from an already cycled HOB to hopefully get some life going in there, and I put in a dual sponge filters and that's been set up for a month. Honestly I thought the media from my other filter would've been enough to help it, but around the same time my county put a big amount of ammonia in the water so I just had to wait and I've been water changing it (big, ~40-50%) every few weeks to suck up some excess molm thats been on the ground, but I guess it was just too much ammonia that was coming in at one time. But if I really cant drop the level soon I think Im just going to pop my other filter in there, which would leave my other tank filterless.

On 7/24/2022 at 6:54 AM, face said:

i agree its a lot if you're  tank water is different than your tap less is fine but change water should be the first step 10 ppm is toxic no matter how you treat it in my opinion.

Yeah that seems like a good first step, just dont want to do it too much because of whatever might happen to my plants.

[Brandon p]

I don’t think 50% water a few times a week is to much., however if you do maybe yo would be more comfortable with something between 25% and 50% a few times a week. There are many people that do 20% daily. I was also responding to the 90% water change mentioned in the post before. You should not have to use prime all the time.  I would also use your water test to see if changes are needed. Your filter and substrate should handle 50% 3x a week and for sure 2. A 25% 3-4 c a week would be no issue. I may hay missed this but have to tested the water you put in the tank. 

[Demobanana]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:21 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

What you're seeing might not even be ammonia but chloramines in the water.  I would suggest running a test.
1.  Take a sample of your tap water, test it for PH, KH, GH, Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates
2.  Take that same sample of water and aerate it for 24 hours with an airstone.  Repeat these tests.  These are your "normal" water parameters after off-gassing.
3.  Compare this to your tank water test results.  These are the changes you'd expect to see during a water change.

If you do have ammonia or chlorine in the water from the tap I would highly recommend setting up the filter to be slightly overkill as well as, if possible, some way to precondition your water before you do a water change with it.

The biggest thing that needs to happen is to find out what is leeching ammonia or causing the results in the water testing that is causing concern.  What substrate is being used in the tank, what is stocking, and what is your feeding regime like?

Oh no I 100% know there is def. chloramines in my water, I live in a big city so its to be expected. I always double dose my dechlor before adding in water to my tank but I will try maybe adding an airstone to my tank? The actual filter in there is a sponge filter, and I dont know how I would overkill the filter without getting a bigger air pump. Substrate is a thin layer of sand a gravel, but there's some big rocks in there too and a bag of gravel from another (cycled) filter. Stocking is nothing but snails, detritus worms and cyclops, and the only "feeding" is some of the plants and organic mater breaking down in there.

[Brandon p]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:05 PM, Demobanana said:

 Im not trying to add bacteria, my initial plan was to add the prime so the ammonia would be temporarily locked into nitrate, except I would keep adding it until all the nitrate was taken up by my plants and all the ammonia was gone. And I estimate around a good half of my 10g is all plants, and they've clearly been taking some of the ammonia. I set up the tank around a month or 2 ago and I threw some plants (for which plants, look above) and some rocks in a bag from an already cycled HOB to hopefully get some life going in there, and I put in a dual sponge filters and that's been set up for a month. Honestly I thought the media from my other filter would've been enough to help it, but around the same time my county put a big amount of ammonia in the water so I just had to wait and I've been water changing it (big, ~40-50%) every few weeks to suck up some excess molm thats been on the ground, but I guess it was just too much ammonia that was coming in at one time. But if I really cant drop the level soon I think Im just going to pop my other filter in there, which would leave my other tank filterless.

Yeah that seems like a good first step, just dont want to do it too much because of whatever might happen to my plants.

The smaller the tank the more often you need to do water changes. At least once a week and until things get better more. I would stop the prime and go with water changes. Prime is a band-aid

[Demobanana]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:55 AM, Flumpweesel said:

Why do we think something is leaching?

I would water change to get the ammonia down.

And do you have live plants, pathos could probably go a long way in helping you here. What size tank are you working on and who is living in it? This could be a stocking out over feeding issue as well.

If you are taking about a smaller tank you could set up a conditioning tub using plants to reduce the ammonia from the tap and use that for water changes if you can't have plants in the tank.

Honestly I think my issue is that the ammonia in my tap is lowered, but when I've been water changing my tank with tap that previosuly did have a lot more ammonia in it and it was too much for my tank. Will water change but I already have a buttload of plants in there and for the feeding/stocking there isnt anything in there except for what I mentioned in my comment above.

On 7/25/2022 at 4:13 PM, Brandon p said:

The smaller the tank the more often you need to do water changes. At least once a week and until things get better more. I would stop the prime and go with water changes. Prime is a band-aid

i understand the water changes, but what do you mean by "Prime is a bandaid"? Other than an ammonia detoxifier I use it as a dechlorinator too

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Prime (and other dechlorinators) lowers the usable oxygen in the water, and if not dosed properly the creatures in the tank will have trouble breathing.

Source:

 

[Demobanana]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:55 AM, Flumpweesel said:

Why do we think something is leaching?

I would water change to get the ammonia down.

And do you have live plants, pathos could probably go a long way in helping you here. What size tank are you working on and who is living in it? This could be a stocking out over feeding issue as well.

If you are taking about a smaller tank you could set up a conditioning tub using plants to reduce the ammonia from the tap and use that for water changes if you can't have plants in the tank.

forgot to mention I dont know what I was saying when I said that,  I don't actually think something was leeching, my previous thought was that maybe the molm I had was leeching all the ammonia in my tank (before I tested it and found all the ammonia in my tap). Also I do have a small-medium sized pothos thats doing pretty good in there. I would say all my plants are doing pretty good. Tank is a 10g

On 7/25/2022 at 4:17 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Prime (and other dechlorinators) lowers the usable oxygen in the water, and if not dosed properly the creatures in the tank will have trouble breathing.

Source:

 

Oh thank you i didnt know that. will be a bit more cautious in the future with dechlorinators

On 7/24/2022 at 3:04 PM, _Eric_ said:

I’ve use Prime for an extended period but the issue you will run into is it can only detoxify 1 ppm per dose and doing 10x the dose will be too much to be safe for the fish.  

hmm...but if theres no fish its fine,right?

[Flumpweesel]

Glad to hear your tap water has improved

On 7/26/2022 at 12:18 AM, Demobanana said:

but if theres no fish

if there are no fish you don't need to detoxify the ammonia, plants like it and it is what the beneficial bacteria feed on.

I'd be tempted to use some bottled water if things spike again it's a smaller tank so you could easily buy water for a 20% change. It would probably work out cheaper than using big doses of prime.

If you have nothing to eat that mulm then I'd give it a good vac make sure you don't have to much detritus in there raising the numbers again for you

[Demobanana]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:37 PM, Flumpweesel said:

Glad to hear your tap water has improved

if there are no fish you don't need to detoxify the ammonia, plants like it and it is what the beneficial bacteria feed on.

I'd be tempted to use some bottled water if things spike again it's a smaller tank so you could easily buy water for a 20% change. It would probably work out cheaper than using big doses of prime.

If you have nothing to eat that mulm then I'd give it a good vac make sure you don't have to much detritus in there raising the numbers again for you

My plan was to wait it out and let my bacteria build and have the plants eat more and more ammonia but its taking a lot longer than expected and I know Im going to have to water change or top off soon, I think I'll just water change it so the ammonia lowers and vac some mulm

[Flumpweesel]

Is this the tanks first cycle? It can take quite a few weeks to sort I normally leave them for 4 to 6 weeks unless using stuff from existing tanks to shortcut things.