Figure 8 Puffer Babies?

[Anttwon]

I have 2 figure 8s that have been together almost a year now with 2 nerite snails. I came home from work yesterday to find what looked like about 20 tiny baby fish in my tank, and a bunch of brown spots all over the sand and filter sponge on one side of the tank. Came home from work today and there is what looks like over a hundred tiny baby fish in the tank. I have been told they wouldn't breed, or its impossible, or no one has ever seen it, etc. What is this I am looking at? I have not introduced anything new to the tank in 3-4 months, other than the water change every Sunday. Am I infested with something or are these tiny puffers???? Please help lol. It is really hard to get a picture of them that is clear enough. I have tons that I can post if need be, maybe one will be better than the next, also have videos that show them allot better, can drop a link to those if I need to. Also, I put a picture of the brown spots that I am assuming were eggs if I am not crazy. Just looking for some guidance. 

[Crabby]

They look like teeny little puffers to me! Gonna need some tiny food for those little fellas though.

[Anttwon]

I have never raised fry before, so I need all the knowledge I can get! I've setup an additional tank with an extra filter from the puffer tank and water from the puffer tank as well, in case this was the case lol, but that was also before I knew there were TONS of them. I have some frozen and freeze dried brine shrimp on hand if that will work, if not I can get whatever I need. No clue what I am going to do with a hundred puffer fish!!!!

[Patrick_G]

Wow, that’s pretty cool. I wonder if they need to be moved to freshwater to survive? In any case I’d think about moving as many as possible into a separate mesh breeder and start raising some baby brine. 

[Anttwon]

I was wondering the same on the fresh water, but I can't find a single drop of information on baby figure 8s. I have a couple of extra ten gallons and cycled filters, maybe I should set one up brackish and one fresh. 

Also was considering the brine shrimp hatching if this was indeed the case, after getting some more info was more than likely going to order the stuff from the coop and just follow one of Cory's many videos on the subject. Do you think the frozen brine I have will be ok to feed until I can get that rolling?

Thanks in advance for any knowledge that can be bestowed upon me 

[Patrick_G]

On 5/26/2022 at 6:35 PM, Anttwon said:

Do you think the frozen brine I have will be ok to feed until I can get that rolling?

I think you’ll probably have to start with some infusoria the frozen bbs might be to big. @Fish Folk, @mountaintoppufferkeeper, what do you think? 

[Tihshho]

How big is the display tank? Depending on what other tanks you have available, it might be safer to move the adults over the babies. 

[Anttwon]

On 5/26/2022 at 6:45 PM, Tihshho said:

How big is the display tank? Depending on what other tanks you have available, it might be safer to move the adults over the babies. 

29 gallon. I have another empty 29 biocube and an empty 40 breeder

Edited May 27, 2022 by Anttwon

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@AnttwonYou may be among or the first to breed them. But those are baby puffers in my experience congrats.

id defer to the egg scatterer puffer breeders for better info but.... I breed cave spawners currently

Fry feeding

I feed vinegar eels from day 1 to  14.

i feed live bbs from day 3 to 30

And i feed white worms grindal worms blackworms from 14 to 45

By day 30 i add in earthworms frozen krill snails etc

I do a breeder box until they get to 1/2 inch then a grow out 

Ive raised 75 in a 35 gallon long within a rack system( to 45 days)

Ive raised 13 to 3" in a 20 gallon 

More space is better the pao canibalize the weak which is natural bit more space limits that

 

 

Photos for reference 

Day before hatching.

Hatching

Day 1 

Day 1 

Day 10 from tonights live bbs feeding

Edited May 27, 2022 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Anttwon]

On 5/26/2022 at 6:50 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

@AnttwonYou may be among or the first to breed them. But those are baby puffers in my experience congrats. I feed live bbs from day 3 on and vinegar eels from day 1 to  14. After that pretty much anything especially worms 

Do you think I need to relocate them to another tank? 

Can definitely do the bbs, am ordering the stuff now from coop, but will need to do my research on the vinegar eels! Until then I have frozen bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, frozen krill, and freeze dried brine shrimp. Will any of those get my by until I can get the bbs up and going? If petco or petsmart has anything that would be better I can hit them up locally. Sorry for all the questions, wasn't expecting this at all and am just trying to do waht I can.

Thanks in advance!

Edited May 27, 2022 by Anttwon

[Crabby]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:55 AM, Anttwon said:

Do you think I need to relocate them to another tank? 

Can definitely do the bbs, am ordering the stuff now from coop, but will need to do my research on the vinegar eels! Until then I have frozen bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, frozen krill, and freeze dried brine shrimp. Will any of those get my by until I can get the bbs up and going? If petco or petsmart has anything that would be better I can hit them up locally. Sorry for all the questions, wasn't expecting this at all and am just trying to do waht I can.

Thanks in advance!

I have no personal experience with puffers but from that photo I doubt they’ll be able to eat anything other than really tiny live foods. They might be able to sustain themselves for a couple days on microfauna that’s already living in the tank, but beyond that something like microworms, vinegar eels or a paramecium culture is probably gonna be necessary to hold you over until they’re big enough for BBS. You can get any of those as cultures online. Microworms would probably be the easiest of that bunch to do but I don’t know if they would be too big, nor am I confident in their nutritional value compared to other options.

As for moving the fry, I’d do a breeder box (or multiple) if that’s an option. Removing the parents may stop them from breeding again.

Best of luck! As stressful as I can imagine it is, you’re in a pretty cool position at the moment.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Crabby

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

No worries thats cool stuff.

In my opinion whatever feels right on moving them is worth trying with some of them. Id keep them under water so they do not inflate with air and get stuck It can happen.

My first group i moved a portion to a breeder box in the parents tank. I do like the internal breeder boxes like ziss from coop just because it keeps them closer to the food and circulates the water and food for them. For me a bigger tank makes it a little harder to monitor and feed. 

As small as possible is the key early. I have not had success with frozen or freeze dried foods but of the 3 id probably try the freeze dried brine shrimp and start live brine when you can. I would guess you could start live baby brine and feed them at 24 hours from now and get plenty to make it evwn with just that. Vinegar eels then baby brine are even better at least for the pao puffers. 

My puffer spawns normally have 50% make it to 30 days every batch lilely because of food competion and genetics. I would definately consider documenting everything in the journey and 3ach improvement with figure 8s. There are also many members with much more experience than me that will likely chime in with some better info.

If you have eggs and fry swimming like that id assume 1 the parents dont bother them much and 2 they breed often. 

From my experience puffers wont stop making puffers once they start. Its ridiculous how many you can get once you figure out what they need.

Edited May 27, 2022 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Anttwon]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:23 PM, Crabby said:

I have no personal experience with puffers but from that photo I doubt they’ll be able to eat anything other than really tiny live foods. They might be able to sustain themselves for a couple days on microfauna that’s already living in the tank, but beyond that something like microworms, vinegar eels or a paramecium culture is probably gonna be necessary to hold you over until they’re big enough for BBS. You can get any of those as cultures online. Microworms would probably be the easiest of that bunch to do but I don’t know if they would be too big, nor am I confident in their nutritional value compared to other options.

Best of luck! As stressful as I can imagine it is, you’re in a pretty cool position at the moment.

Thank you for your help!! Definitely think I am in over my head with this surprise..

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:25 PM, Anttwon said:

Thank you for your help!! Definitely think I am in over my head with this surprise..

...also the most experienced figure 8 puffer keeper and breeder i have met

On 5/26/2022 at 7:43 PM, Patrick_G said:

I think you’ll probably have to start with some infusoria the frozen bbs might be to big. @Fish Folk, @mountaintoppufferkeeper, what do you think? 

Puffer signal recieved 😁

[Anttwon]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:24 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

No worries thats cool stuff.

In my opinion whatever feels right on moving them is worth trying with some of them. Id keep them under water so they do not inflate with air and get stuck It can happen.

My first group i moved a portion to a breeder box in the parents tank. I do like the internal breeder boxes like ziss from coop just because it keeps them closer to the food and circulates the water and food for them. For me a bigger tank makes it a little harder to monitor and feed. 

As small as possible is the key early. I have not had success with frozen or freeze dried foods but of the 3 id probably try the freeze dried brine shrimp and start live brine when you can. I would guess you could start live baby brine and feed them at 24 hours from now and get plenty to make it evwn with just that. Vinegar eels then baby brine are even better at least for the pao puffers. 

My puffer spawns normally have 50% make it to 30 days every batch lilely because of food competion and genetics. I would definately consider documenting everything in the journey and 3ach improvement with figure 8s. There are also many members with much more experience than me that will likely chime in with some better info.

If you have eggs and fry swimming like that id assume 1 the parents dont bother them much and 2 they breed often. 

From my experience puffers wont stop making puffers once they start. Its ridiculous how many you can get once you figure out what they need.

This is crazy! Went from thinking this was impossible, to this conversation in 24 hours. Thank you for all the information, wasn't looking to breed or take care of babies but I am going to try my best!

Of all the foods mentioned I am only familiar with a couple, and none of which I can get locally. I am ordering BBS stuff from coop and will look at ordering some cultures of smaller foods to get going for possible future fry if these don't make it with what I can get or have. 

 

100% plan to document everything!!  Figure 8 puffer info is peanuts compared to everything else I am coming to find. 

[Patrick_G]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:47 PM, Anttwon said:

100% plan to document everything!!  Figure 8 puffer info is peanuts compared to everything else I am coming to find. 
 

So true. I just got a Green spotted puffer and it’s crazy how little info there is compared most other fish in the hobby. 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

Vinegar eels are pretty good for my baby puffers very small the move around and they tend to stay alive and in the water column for a bit. 

i put a few slices of apple in a glass bottle with a neck 50% apple cider vinegar 50%. They are handy to have around they dont really smell and are always ready to harvest while i wait for brine shrimp

On 5/26/2022 at 8:47 PM, Anttwon said:

This is crazy! Went from thinking this was impossible, to this conversation in 24 hours. Thank you for all the information, wasn't looking to breed or take care of babies but I am going to try my best!

Of all the foods mentioned I am only familiar with a couple, and none of which I can get locally. I am ordering BBS stuff from coop and will look at ordering some cultures of smaller foods to get going for possible future fry if these don't make it with what I can get or have. 

 

100% plan to document everything!!  Figure 8 puffer info is peanuts compared to everything else I am coming to find. 

You got this. Im pumped to see your progress with them 

[Anttwon]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:57 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

Vinegar eels are pretty good for my baby puffers very small the move around and they tend to stay alive and in the water column for a bit. 

i put a few slices of apple in a glass bottle with a neck 50% apple cider vinegar 50%. They are handy to have around they dont really smell and are always ready to harvest while i wait for brine shrimp

You got this. Im pumped to see your progress with them 

Am definitely looking into the vinegar eels! Sounds like one of the better options. What was the second 50% ingredient after the apple cider vinegar?

Once again, thank you for all the info!!!

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I do 50% apple cider vinegar 50% water 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I do 50% apple cider vinegar 50% water .

Happy to share any info I have managed to acquire. Congrats on the success. 

[Anttwon]

Got what looks like half of them in a spare 10g brackish last night. Lost some to my hob in the parent tank last night it seems. Thought I covered the intake in filter floss good enough, but there was an opening that that got a few of em. Took a fine sponge from one of my other filters and rigged it so it doesn't get the rest of the ones in there. Got bbs and vinegar eels on the way, hopefully they get here in time for this batch of babies. Ground some of the freeze dried brine shrimp super fine this morning and fed so hopefully that can hold them over. 

Forgot to ask last night, but I have some vita chem that I used with the freeze dried krill I fed when I first got the puffers and was waiting on live/frozen foods. Was wondering if this would help give them the nutrients they need that the freeze dried brine doesn't give them while I am waiting on the live bbs to get here?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Hard boiled egg yolk is a good fry food. Mix with a little bit of tank water and feed the solution to them. Some of the yolk may remain in bigger chunks. Do not put the chunks in the tank. Only the stuff that suspends in the water mixture.

[Anttwon]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:46 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Hard boiled egg yolk is a good fry food. Mix with a little bit of tank water and feed the solution to them. Some of the yolk may remain in bigger chunks. Do not put the chunks in the tank. Only the stuff that suspends in the water mixture.

Awesome. Will give this a shot as well. Thanks for the info!!

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:27 AM, Anttwon said:

Got what looks like half of them in a spare 10g brackish last night. Lost some to my hob in the parent tank last night it seems. Thought I covered the intake in filter floss good enough, but there was an opening that that got a few of em. Took a fine sponge from one of my other filters and rigged it so it doesn't get the rest of the ones in there. Got bbs and vinegar eels on the way, hopefully they get here in time for this batch of babies. Ground some of the freeze dried brine shrimp super fine this morning and fed so hopefully that can hold them over. 

Forgot to ask last night, but I have some vita chem that I used with the freeze dried krill I fed when I first got the puffers and was waiting on live/frozen foods. Was wondering if this would help give them the nutrients they need that the freeze dried brine doesn't give them while I am waiting on the live bbs to get here?

Awesome. Those hang on backs are pretty good at that I use a large intake sponge on mine and I'm pretty sure it still takes a few. I bet they look great in that 10 gallon. 

I would consider doing an internal tank breeder box or net breeder etc for the first few days just to keep them closer to the food. If they are anything like the baby puffers that I have managed to get going it is a benefit to have them in a smaller area close to food and easier for you to observe behaviors eating digestion etc. Even those white net ones with the green plastic frame from big box pet stores should be good for that for short term. 

I use vitachem on any frozen or gel foods I feed to the adult puffers. I have also done drops into the water per the bottle label before with no issues. In my tanks it has never hurt to use it per the directions. 

[Anttwon]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:52 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

 I would consider doing an internal tank breeder box or net breeder etc for the first few days just to keep them closer to the food. If they are anything like the baby puffers that I have managed to get going it is a benefit to have them in a smaller area close to food and easier for you to observe behaviors eating digestion etc. Even those white net ones with the green plastic frame from big box pet stores should be good for that for short term. 

Am picking up one of those same white/green net ones from the local Petco on lunch today for the ones still in the parent tank.

In your puffer baby experience, how long do you think it will be before they are juveniles or should I say how long do you think it will be before I need to "do something with them"? If it's move them to a bigger tank, separate them out, sell them. give away etc.

Just trying to be prepared for the future if we make it that far.