What do you do when the water parameters are all fine, but still have issues?

[Fish Folk]

@Goldie Blue very sorry to hear about these fish deaths. We all can testify… it’s  discouraging. But we have all been there too. You’re not alone here.

Would you mind sharing some photos and / or videos of your aquarium? I have found that I tend to think of things more naturally when looking at concrete examples rather than imagining.

What you’ve received here by way of feedback already is impressive! I have found that a well-planted tank often solves problems before parameters get out of hand.

But I want to add… I have had rather poor success with Bettas. Take time to soak in what Betta experts say if you want yours to thrive. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:32 AM, isaly said:

I seem to remember being advised to not clean the canister for at least six months after you set it up.

Cleaning the filter isn't going to cause issues. The bacteria needs about 2-4 weeks. Anything after that should be cycled based on load. If you're adding load in that time, you can still clean the filter if you need to. Use tank water. That's s the only thing you need to do to keep the media cycled.

[Goldie Blue]

@nabokovfan87 Thank you so much for all the details, I VERY much appreciate it. As for the temp topic, those same white clouds have been in this tank since it was cycled and set up a year ago, could the death happen just randomly from temp? And then the Oto's dying within a few days of the white cloud was weird. Of course, the guy at my LFS told me they were great beginner fish, and knew I already had my betta in there so you'd think he would have known temp was higher than a white cloud would need. Now I am wondering if I should cycle a new tank for my betta and pull him out so I can drop temps in the 55g! I have an axolotl with a chiller in the tank, if he wasn't a death machine I bet my poor minnows would love it in his tank. 

@Cbass I am right there with you! I thought I was doing what was right for the tank, and the parameters were always where they needed to be. Little did I know I am pretty much doing everything wrong! Not everything, but close to it lol!

As for the canisters, luckily I have not messed much with them since setting those up. I threw the carbon out from the start, and have only changed the white pad on top twice since the setup a year ago. Other than that, I have not messed with it at all. Though now I will need to add carbon to pull out the medication that is currently in the tank. On a positive note about the medication, my bettas coloring is coming back very quickly...which I "hope" means he is not under stress and the meds are helping him feel better. This guy has been through some crap in this tank for sure, I feel bad but he is still kicking and he has my heart. 

@Fish Folk I am including a few pics of both tanks, and a video of each. Keep in mind the water is green from the meds. 

Thank you to everyone who has chimed in, I just want the best for my guys so please let me hear any suggestions!

55g video: 

 

10g video:

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Goldie Blue

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:04 PM, Goldie Blue said:

As for the temp topic, those same white clouds have been in this tank since it was cycled and set up a year ago, could the death happen just randomly from temp? And then the Oto's dying within a few days of the white cloud was weird. Of course, the guy at my LFS told me they were great beginner fish, and knew I already had my betta in there so you'd think he would have known temp was higher than a white cloud would need. Now I am wondering if I should cycle a new tank for my betta and pull him out so I can drop temps in the 55g!

I would try to find a 20L for the Betta. It's a better environment for him and he might enjoy the tank. You can give him light flow and he won't have to hide in the log. I assume he spends a lot of time there?

As.for stress and what you're talking about, I think you might have developed something called old tank syndrome. The mix of not cleaning the filtration as well as other stress factors may have let things build up and then over time it has an effect and you see losses.

 

As for Otos and some nano fish, when you bring them into an existing tank there is always going to be some risk of loss. Otos especially. Losing 1 might be normal and might take up to a week for that to happen while.others purchased the same day will do fine. They are a great "beginner fish" but they also have specific needs and are usually highly.stressed out by the time they get to our tanks.

Please check out the video above and let us know if that makes any sense for what's going on.  As mentioned before, if you're adding new fish to an existing display tank it's recommended to have small tubs or something else to QT those fish. Irene (girltalksfish) has a lot of good videos on how to do this cheaply and with limited room.

[Cbass]

@Goldie Blue How long have you been medicating? Curious as to your experience as it relates to how long before you saw positive results. 

As for carbon, I don't use it since I run a planted tank. But I always keep some in the event of an emergency. Like the time I failed to read the label on my algae fix and didn't know that it's not safe for shrimp. Sometimes this hobby really puts you in check and I say to myself (often) "You know nothing, Jon Snow".

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/20/2022 at 2:20 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Please check out the video above and let us know if that makes any sense for what's going on.

My weekly routine has been 20-25% water change with vacuum to the gravel every single week. I have never once skipped a week. I was also taking out all the decorations at least twice a month and scrubbing the excess brown algae off with tank water, and wiped down the glass, which I now know is a no-no! The canister, I have taken apart the tubing and splash bar about 3 times in the course of a year and snaked the hoses and cleaned all that, changed that white pad out twice in a year, and then I have taken all the media out only once and given it a swish in the tank water I pulled. 

Should I be swishing the media out every month then, if I am understanding the video correctly?

Also, in the video he mentioned water changes a lot, I never just change the water or top off, it's always with a gravel vacuum each week as well. Should I not be vacuuming every week? I hate to ask so many questions, but I want to be really sure moving forward I am doing it right. 

Thank you for the help and patience! 

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, Cbass said:

How long have you been medicating?

This is my second dosing of Jungle Fungus Clear. So it would be day 6 I believe. Each round is 4 days. My betta Goldie Blue who is in the 55g is supposed to be a solid blue with a gold and blue tail, he has been almost totally white/gold for like a month and a half now (which I assumed was fin rot/stress since his fins look pretty bad) so I took a guess and medicated. The last two days he has gotten almost all of his blue coloring back. 

You're not kidding about knowing nothing! This has me so stressed out and it's been on my mind non stop since the little fish got sick and died.

Oh also @nabokovfan87 both my bettas love the log and See Shelter (I took the 55g one out so it didn't get stained from the meds). I know Goldie Blue hates the flow in the tank, he just bounces from either the hoses in the back right of the tank, or one of his two logs or See Shelter. I tried to slow the flow down in the tank about 6 months ago and I'm assuming it was from the adjustment, but my whole tank spiraled out of control. Nitrates shot through the roof. The guy in the 10g is pretty active swimming all around in there during the day, he chills in his log or See Shelter at night. I tried to give Goldie Blue a lot of places to rest/hide because I know the flow is really bad in there. I've done so many things wrong I wish I could undo or change lol. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:40 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Should I be swishing the media out every month then, if I am understanding the video correctly?

Also, in the video he mentioned water changes a lot, I never just change the water or top off, it's always with a gravel vacuum each week as well. Should I not be vacuuming every week? I hate to ask so many questions, but I want to be really sure moving forward I am doing it right. 

Thank you for the help and patience! 

Your water change % volume and your vacuum schedule seems perfectly fine. I wouldn't change that at all. The issue is tied to just the canister filter maintenance.

In my situation, running a HoB filter, whenever I drain water from the tank, I clean the filter media and the sponges and see if I need to replace any fine pad.

For a HoB, this is generally a weekly thing or bi-weekly. If you have a sponge filter it's about the same schedule and can be done as far apart as monthly.  For both of these, there is going to need to be a "deep clean" monthly where you go and clean the pump, check things that need to be maintained to operate correctly like your airstone or impellers.  A lot of people are going to have different methods for how long in between a "quick rinse off" and a "deep clean" for each type of filter method.

For a canister filter it's a bit of a different beast. That just means it's much harder to have the "quick clean" mentality.  At least once a month I personally would clean any media from gunk (sponges at least). The longest I would go without doing this is 90 days.

Every 2-4 weeks I would check your fine pad until you have an idea of how often it needs to be changed. This is also an opportunity for you to see the state of the media/sponges and understand how often you need to clean things. With the load you have in the tank I imagine that it would not be monthly, but a bit longer between cleanings.

Everything 3-6 months I would take the impeller out and clean that.

I would run an intake sponge on your canister intake and every time you gravel vac, I would clean off that instake Sponge.

 

For the case of making it "easy" this is what I would recommend:

Week 1: 25% water change, test parameters

Week 2: Gravel vac, clean intake sponge, check canister sponges, check fine pad, 25% water change.

Week 3: 25% water change, test parameters

Week 4: gravel vac, etc. (Likely need to change fine pad here)

Week 5: 25% water change, test parameters, check canister filter sponges.

Every 3 months: clean impeller, rinse ceramic media in canister, check seals and hoses, lubricate O rings on canister.

On 5/20/2022 at 12:49 PM, Goldie Blue said:

The guy in the 10g is pretty active swimming all around in there during the day, he chills in his log or See Shelter at night. I tried to give Goldie Blue a lot of places to rest/hide because I know the flow is really bad in there. I've done so many things wrong I wish I could undo or change lol. 

The good thing is you're an active hobbyist. You're in tune with the fish and they are talking with you, letting you know what they need! It's good that you are keeping such a close eye and small changes will make things better for you and the fish.  I know how you feel and all I can say is that it gets better and gets easier.

Edited May 20, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:40 PM, Goldie Blue said:

I have taken all the media out only once and given it a swish in the tank water I pulled. 

Not required, but it might make life easier if you have the media in bags. I don't know how easy it is to get the trays in and out of the canister and into a bucket of tank water. Entirely up to your preference!

On 5/20/2022 at 12:49 PM, Goldie Blue said:

The last two days he has gotten almost all of his blue coloring back. 

Very good to see this and hear the good progress!

Edited May 20, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/20/2022 at 3:04 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

For the case of making it "easy" this is what I would recommend:

Week 1: 25% water change, test parameters

Week 2: Gravel vac, clean intake sponge, check canister sponges, check fine pad, 25% water change.

Week 3: 25% water change, test parameters

Week 4: gravel vac, etc. (Likely need to change fine pad here)

Week 5: 25% water change, test parameters, check canister filter sponges.

Every 3 months: clean impeller, rinse ceramic media in canister, check seals and hoses, lubricate O rings on canister.

This is EXACTLY what I needed to see, and can't thank you enough! Yeah, a canister filter is a huge pain to unhook and take apart etc, but now that I know I need to be more vigilant at it, I will get it done on schedule. To clarify, the "fine pad" you mentioned is the white pad at the top of my canister? The one others have suggested I can swap out for 30 ppi foam?

On 5/20/2022 at 3:04 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The good thing is you're an active hobbyist. You're in tune with the fish and they are talking with you, letting you know what they need! It's good that you are keeping such a close eye and small changes will make things better for you and the fish.  I know how you feel and all I can say is that it gets better and gets easier.

I might not be good at it yet, but I love those fish a lot! My husband thinks I am nuts because I talk to them and say hi every time I walk by the tanks. I know right away if something is off (even though I may not know WHAT it is lol) with my two bettas. I talk to and play with my axolotl several times a day. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 1:21 PM, Goldie Blue said:

To clarify, the "fine pad" you mentioned is the white pad at the top of my canister? The one others have suggested I can swap out for 30 ppi foam?

I am definitely going to nudge you over to pondguru for that one! He's very good at breaking down setups for canister filters, any filtration really, and he has a lot of videos on what does what and why you'd want to use say.... A fine pad in place of sponge or just using multiple stacks of foam.  There's one that I linked earlier, here's another 🙂

Feel free to ask anything you need to or if you still have questions regarding setup.

The goal being mechanical (foams) then your fine pad, if you use one.  Then you have your ceramic media (biological filtration). And then any chemical filtration (like carbon or phosphate pads).

To clarify, sorry for the confusing answer, I think you need to get your filter in the right order and then determine what you want to run on the fine pad vs. the added layers of sponge.  I have some filters where I only run coarse/medium pads and I've pretty much always gone back to adding a finer PPI sponge.  The fine pad itself I will use when I feel like I really need to.  For a canister filter, it makes a lot of sense (to me) to have it in there.  If you're wanting additional mechanical filtration up front, I think adding more layers of sponge is perfectly fine as well as your intake sponge. You do have an intake sponge, but it looks like it doesn't completely cover the intake.

Edited May 20, 2022 by nabokovfan87
clarification / typo

[Cbass]

If you use filter bags, you can also use poly-fill as filter floss. Yes, it's the stuff that you use in sewing. I use it in a fine filter bag and place it as the last layer. Works well for me and is pretty inexpensive. This was a method used a long time ago (sorta dating myself) so I don't know if it's still looked at as appropriate, but it works for me. My current setup is a course sponge tied to my intake, the coarse foams that came with my Fluval 107, biomedia in 2 trays and the poly fill on top. Pretty happy with the results. But to @nabokovfan87 point, best to get the filter and water in a good spot and then mess with media. 

@nabokovfan87 I just realized your username. I haven't heard that name in awhile! (I'm in the Bay Area).  

[Fish Folk]

@Goldie Blue Thanks for sharing videos and photos of your tanks. I know it can feel risky to be vulnerable.

I may have seen a hint of Cyanobacteria in your 55 gal, but it’s hard to say with the fungus treatment still coloring up the water. All that would mean anyway is that there’s nutrients available for it that aren’t being uptaken by plants.

In my opinion, there is a massive increase to the overall health of a tank when lots of live plants are incorporated into a tank.

I’ve got two tanks somewhat out of recommended parameters and stocking levels that are manageable only because of plants doing a lot of lifting.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Fish Folk

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/20/2022 at 5:45 PM, Fish Folk said:

In my opinion, there is a massive increase to the overall health of a tank when lots of live plants are incorporated into a tank.

 

I'd LOVE to have more plants. One more thing I'd have done different at the start is putting in different substrate. It's just cheapo PetCo black gravel. Though the 2 cryptocoryne  I have in there are doing so/so, the only other plants I have had success with have been the java ferns and the 1 anubias. My light (Aqueon LED) is also not ideal (so I have been told) for plants. 

Would you suggest just adding in more java ferns since I know they can do alright in there?

On 5/20/2022 at 5:45 PM, Fish Folk said:

I may have seen a hint of Cyanobacteria in your 55 gal,

Is there a certain spot you can point out you think you may have seen it? I can double check! Thank you for all your help and advice!

[Fish Folk]

It may just be the malachite / victoria green in your fungus treatment, but double check these areas…

I’ll share a couple videos of two of my 55 gal tanks with enough “no-no’s” to break the internet. Their saving grace is live plants…

I rarely gravel vac. Just change 30% - 50% water out each week. Filtration for Discus is just sponges. Acaras + BNPs uses sponges plus HOBs with Pothos. I haven’t cleaned them out in… 2 years. Sponges get squeezed every month.  

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 5:17 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Would you suggest just adding in more java ferns since I know they can do alright in there?

Mosses, anubias, java fern. Lotus and lilys, floating plants, etc.  You can even just use a small terra cotta pot and add what you need without disrupting your existing scape too much!

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:06 PM, Fish Folk said:

It may just be the malachite / victoria green in your fungus treatment, but double check these areas…

The section you spotted on the cave is just weird fake coloring on the plastic, it came like that. I pulled out the log and everything looked okay there too. I certainly do NOT want cyano in there on top of all of this, but I will keep my eyes out just in case once I pull the meds out.

On 5/20/2022 at 8:06 PM, Fish Folk said:

I’ll share a couple videos of two of my 55 gal tanks with enough “no-no’s” to break the internet. Their saving grace is live plants…

Oh my gosh, those tanks are GORGEOUS. How long have you had the java ferns in there? They are huge! I'd love to have some pothos incorporated into my 55g but that is a problem for future me. Right now I need to get this thing functioning. I am absolutely going to pick your brain about this when the time comes though!

On 5/20/2022 at 8:09 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Mosses, anubias, java fern. Lotus and lilys, floating plants, etc.  You can even just use a small terra cotta pot and add what you need without disrupting your existing scape too much!

I have been thinking about removing that hobbit house in the 55 for a bigger piece of driftwood to attach more java ferns on, but my pleco loves that stupid thing. A lady I know gave me some frogbit for the tank last year, and all of it slowly got yellow, and then small brown holes and it died. I really liked the way it looked, so maybe I will give it a try again. The pot idea is fantastic. I absolutely love all this advice, you guys rock. 

Do you suggest I wait to add plants for a month or two to get the current issues in order? 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/20/2022 at 7:57 PM, Goldie Blue said:

A lady I know gave me some frogbit for the tank last year, and all of it slowly got yellow, and then small brown holes and it died. I really liked the way it looked, so maybe I will give it a try again

Definitely might need to just dose easy green. Sounds like a pretty typical nutrient deficiency.

On 5/20/2022 at 7:57 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Do you suggest I wait to add plants for a month or two to get the current issues in order? 

Probably should be done with meds in 2-3 weeks, then you're safe to add them.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/19/2022 at 10:20 PM, modified lung said:

And another note on over cleanliness is that it leaves openings for bad bacteria or other bad microorganisms to take over.

Isn't that funny because in human environments (ie: kitchen countertops) it's the opposite. 

On 5/20/2022 at 10:57 PM, Goldie Blue said:

I have been thinking about removing that hobbit house in the 55 for a bigger piece of driftwood to attach more java ferns on, but my pleco loves that stupid thing

LOL.  I had to keep a battleship in my tank for quite some time because my snail would sleep in there every day.  I eventually removed it but I added a small log decoration that she can climb into, as well as 2 flowerpots.  She has accepted the substitute accommodations well and everything now blends better.

[Torrey]

@Goldie Blue welcome to the forum, and learning about fish as most of us have: by getting it wrong first.

The valuable part is, it doesn't sound like you'll make the same mistakes twice.

If you are a YouTube member, I can't recommend Gianne Souza's members only video enough. She also has a part 1 and a part 2 on the regular Co-op channel from a few years ago? She's an IBC Judge, and betta breeder. I bred bettas several years ago, and made some mistakes (like not keeping the air humid enough) that shortened the lifespans of my breeders and may have contributed to some problems I had with a few of the fry. If YouTube had been around then, i wouldn't have made the mistakes (I would have made others, instead, lol).

Long finned bettas are happiest in shallow tanks, so I second the advice of moving to a shorter tank. 

Don't worry about the "cheap gravel substrate" your tanks have been set up long enough that even with regular vacuuming I'm sure you have mulm. Mulm is free plant food, I only spot clean my gravel, sand, dirt or rocks.

Plants of any kind give you a buffer. Some plants need more nutrient supplementation than others. I am currently dealing with a tank I unintentionally underfed to keep clean water for the shrimp. Now all my plants are dying back and the snails and shrimp are eating them faster than they can recover, so take my advice with a grain of salt, as also as proof that even experienced aquarists are always learning new things.

This tank back in April (above) and now (below)

I underfed, didn't increase ferts for the growth, then got sick and didn't do any maintenance for a month. I'm getting back on my feet now, and the shrimp and snails ate the plants.

This is the T4' a year ago, with algae and awkward teen stage growth in the tank (above) and tonight (below)

All those plants allow for heavy overstocking, and my nitrates, nitrites and ammonia stay at zero. I have to fertilize every other day, or my frogbit gets holes in it. I removed over 100 endlers last week, and the water in here still looks like it is boiling at feeding time.

No clue why this image keeps coming in upside down.... This was a bare bottom tank until mid-May, for growing out fry. Due to health stuff, I'm not actively breeding this year (passive still happens, lol) This is now a bachelor tank and longfin danio tank. It's also a 10 gallon, and I can overstock it because of the pothos. Again, ammonia, nitirtes and nitrates stay at zero unless I add ferts. Easy Green gets my nitrates up to 15 ppm... until the plants use it all.

This was my Walstad tank, and the first time I got red stem plants to grow...after over 4 decades of fishkeeping. I'm still learning! (This tank has since been revamped, you can follow it's journey on my link in my signature)

So, I'm trying to say don't be scared about making mistakes. It's how all creatures, including humans, learn best. Don't be afraid to try new things. Get our betta out of the 55 and somewhere he won't have to fight flow that will shorten his lifespan (I had a betta who loved to surf the flow, he literally played in it like a kid at an amusement park riding the roller coasters all day. It tore up his fins after 18 months, and he only lived to 2 years old... but he lived on his terms. If your betta is staying in his log, he's not living on his terms. Get him calmer waters, and warmer waters, and let the white clouds go wihtout a heater. It'll save you on the electric bill, too.)

Mostly, have fun with the hobby!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Goldie Blue]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:49 PM, Torrey said:

If your betta is staying in his log, he's not living on his terms. Get him calmer waters, and warmer waters, and let the white clouds go wihtout a heater. It'll save you on the electric bill, too.)

@Torrey I admit, I am a bit emotional because I keep feeling like I am taking one step forward, then two steps back thinking I am doing the right thing. You made me tear up with this comment. I love this darn betta SO much, and I only want the best for him. If you have anything to add about if I should medicate him again in my newer post from today, I'd love to pick your brain. Thank you so much for all of this advice.

 

[Torrey]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:11 PM, Goldie Blue said:

@Torrey I admit, I am a bit emotional because I keep feeling like I am taking one step forward, then two steps back thinking I am doing the right thing. You made me tear up with this comment. I love this darn betta SO much, and I only want the best for him. If you have anything to add about if I should medicate him again in my newer post from today, I'd love to pick your brain. Thank you so much for all of this advice.

 

I think his log may be too rough for his fins, tbh. I built floating moss tubes for my bettas, and they could still tear up their fins if they weren't eating enough (primarily live foods), were too stressed, or had just gone through the stress of raising fry. You can see the blue canvas mesh tube at the bottom of the bachelor/danio tank, and the black canvas mesh tube is almost fully covered with moss.... yet my last betta still managed to tear up his fins.

Think of the most sensitive skin on your body. Then, think about not having any clothes between that skin and any ornament in a betta's tank..... Once I wrapped my head around just how fragile those long, flowing tails are (thank you Gianne!) I got much better at selecting safer items for my bettas... and live plants like hornwort, elodea, java ferns and amazon sword, as well as crypts and buces, won every time. I don't see any of the tell tale signs (fuzzy edges, clearly identifiable blood vessels, etc) that indicate disease. I see stressed coloration (which you said is improving), what appears to be mechanical tears in the fins (as opposed to disease), and good scales. 

My bettas stayed healthiest with a little salt in the tank water (Gianne explains why this is so in their presentation), a lot of indian almond leaves, blackworms in the substrate, scuds in the indian almond leaves, live (or at least frozen) daphnia minimum of 1 to 2x/week, live or frozen bloodworms once a week, live or frozen BBS 2 to 3x/week, plus Bug Bites pellets for bettas (no fillers, and uses soldier fly larvae as main ingredient). The betta who loved flow, I let him have flow. It obviously made him happy.

The rest had floating plants that were soft (no milfoil, it will tear their fins), large leafed plants, including pothos, that they could rest on, moss balls to lounge on, and I eventually switched over to only soft plants, indian almond leaves I had boiled first, and silicone decorations to protect them and their fins. Soft substrate of large, rounded river stones, or rounded gravel, or a carpeting plant on top of gravel. A ping pong ball for them to play with.

You are trying really hard, when's the last time you just sat down and listened to your bettas? They will tell you what they need, if you, listen.

There's no way to prove it, but I suspect they live happier lives if their autonomy is respected. Fastest, easiest way to respect autonomy is to take time to listen, and validate what they tell you by making the changes they ask for. You'll get there, just trust yourself, and trust your fish.