What do you do when the water parameters are all fine, but still have issues?

[Goldie Blue]

I have a 55g, and a 10g with freshwater fish in it. 55g has been set up since May 2021, and 10g since Jan of 2022. 

I am having issues in these tanks despite the fact I do water changes every week, and the water parameters are reading fine on a consistent basis with API tube tests. I will list what I have in each tank below, but I just don't know what I might be doing wrong.

10g - 1 Betta and 1 Nerite snail. ZooMed Nano canister filter. Has an airstone, and the Betta I had placed in there has slowly but surely had its tail degrade. When I first got him, it had white edges, and I thought "oh wow that is pretty", but now I am wondering if he had fin rot to start.

55g - Eheim 350 classic canister, large air stone bar. Stocked with 5 (was 6, 1 died) white cloud minnows, 1 clown pleco, 1 (was 4, 3 died) Oto's, my baby boy Goldie Blue who is a halfmoon betta. A handful of assassin snails.

In the last 3 weeks I had a white cloud just wither away, no obvious signs of illness, ich, or injuries. I chalked it up to maybe he was old, but then 3 of my Oto's died within the last two weeks. Again, no signs of obvious illness. No red marks, or white dots, or fuzz. 

I have not added anything at all to the tank in the last two months. I am religious about my weekly water changes and cleanings.

My issue is I have suspected both my bettas have had fin rot for a while now. Some of you may remember my posts about Goldie Blue being a marble betta, but now I am not so sure he wasn't just hella stressed out. His fins look like crap, and he went almost totally gold and didn't return his colors. Both of their tails look ragged and awful, and I just was not sure if I needed to medicate 😞 

So after losing those fish, and seeing both bettas fins looking terrible, I have added Jungle Fungus Clear. I am on my second dose (package says to add tabs, then wait 4 days, do 25% water change then add dose again). So tonight is my second dose for both tanks.

Parameters are below, and have been consistent for weeks, if not last 2-3 months:

pH: 8 (always this high)

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: between 5-20 (pic included)

Hardness about a 10

The ONLY think I can think of, at least for the 55g is that I had not changed out the white filter pad on top of my Eheim classis 350 in 2 months. When I did maintenance on it this past week that white filter pad was icky. I usually swish out all the ceramic media, and the blue pad once every 2 months in water from the tank. 

Also, I take everything that isn't live plants out of my tanks EVERY week, and scrub them down. I wipe down the walls every week. I am really thorough, is it too much? 

My parameters are always good, I just don't understand what is going on and thought I'd ask the brilliant minds here. 

Please ask me for any further information or pics, happy to provide them so I can get some help. Thank you in advance!

 

 

[Guppysnail]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Also, I take everything that isn't live plants out of my tanks EVERY week, and scrub them down. I wipe down the walls every week. I am really thorough, is it too much? 

 

I’m sorry you are having a rough time.

This is too much. I never scrub any hard scape.  Beneficial bacteria grows plentiful on hard scape  and I want that in the tank.  I only clean 1 thing a week.  Front glass 1week side glass another and I seldom clean the back.  Constantly removing large amounts of beneficial bacteria “destabilizes” your tank. I only clean my filters when they slow down. Then I am not thorough in removing all the “gunk” because gunk it where beneficial bacteria live.  Fish struggle in tanks that are “too clean” or cleaned to often. 
 

over-cleaning can also cause mini ammonia/nitrite spikes that over time stress the fish and wear down their immune system.  Indian almond leaves and the tannins they release are extremely beneficial to betta and other fish. 
 

I hope this helps. 
 

 

[Katherine]

I agree with @Guppysnail on the cleaning. Your test photo also looks to me like you may have a small amount of ammonia, but that could just be from differences in screens. Can you do another ammonia test and look straight down the tube with the cap off and something white under it? That will make it obvious if there's even a hint of green.

[Brian]

So much going on.  I was wondering what the source water test at?  I concur cleaning to much .  Let the tanks settle it.  
01. could be bad stock.  Do you buy your fish at the store? 
02. A little salt can do wonders.

03. Fin rot could be a secondary symptom and the cause may be stress.

04. Quality and or types of food.

 

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/19/2022 at 8:02 AM, Brian said:

01. could be bad stock.  Do you buy your fish at the store? 

The white clouds were from my LFS, bettas were from PetCo, and pleco PetSmart. All of them have been in the tank since the start 1 year ago.

On 5/19/2022 at 8:02 AM, Brian said:

04. Quality and or types of food.

The bettas get pellets from aquaticfoods_blackworm_co on Ebay ( link  ), Fluval bug bites, and once or twice a week frozen brine shrimp. The white clouds get the Fluval bug bites and Aqueon or Omega flakes. The pleco gets wafers from the same store mentioned above.

On 5/19/2022 at 7:21 AM, Katherine said:

Can you do another ammonia test and look straight down the tube with the cap off and something white under it?

I was totally sure it was at 0, but happy to do another test once I am home and I'll post it. 

I will cut back on the cleaning of stuff inside the tank, but at what point do you change the white pads in the canister filter I have? Thank you for the help guys!

[Guppysnail]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:36 PM, Goldie Blue said:

what point do you change the white pads in the canister filter I have?

I do not use them. I leave them out. I replace with 30 ppi foam. If you want something finer go with 40 ppi foam. Those white pads cause the filter to clog and need cleaned to often resulting in more disruption.  I only drop those in a hob if I really need to temporarily until things settle in. 

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/19/2022 at 11:39 AM, Guppysnail said:

I replace with 30 ppi foam.

Thank you! Just so I understand and don't mess things up even more, my canister has ceramic rings on the bottom, then a blue coarse filter pad (never been replaced), then ceramic balls, then the white pad I mentioned before. So, would I place the 30 ppi foam in the spot the white pad would go?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

When you say you had a fish just "wither away", that sounds like wasting disease to me (parasite).  The fish will have no other symptoms other than getting skinnier over time.

[Guppysnail]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:44 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Thank you! Just so I understand and don't mess things up even more, my canister has ceramic rings on the bottom, then a blue coarse filter pad (never been replaced), then ceramic balls, then the white pad I mentioned before. So, would I place the 30 ppi foam in the spot the white pad would go?

Yes you are correct. It is not as great at fine particle but gets the job done. If you want greater fine particulate catching go 40 poi but know that will be what clogs and slows the filter first. I use both 30 and the filter came with 40. I don’t really notice a difference visually though. 

[Torrey]

On 5/19/2022 at 2:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Also, I take everything that isn't live plants out of my tanks EVERY week, and scrub them down. I wipe down the walls every week. I am really thorough, is it too much? 

By cleaning to this degree, the beneficial bacteria are being removed from these surfaces every week. 

So is the accompanying biofilm.

And that degree of cleaning adds stress to the fish.

There are a few potential things to look at:

1. Did you do a full quarantine including preventative parasite treatment on every single fish?

2. Are you testing for ammonia and nitrites ~hour after feeding?

It's normal after feedings, especially heavy feedings, for a minute amount of ammonia to be present (food==> waste ==> ammonia ==> nitrites ==> nitrates ==> happy plants)

With as much cleaning as you are describing, there's a really good chance that for the next 3 to 5 days those spikes are higher, adding stress to the fish. 

If they weren't preventatively treated, and even one fish brought in a parasite, they all have varying degrees of parasitic infestation, and the more stress the less resistance they have to the parasites, which will also decrease resistance to other illnesses. 

Once one thing gets imbalanced (like losing beneficial bacteria) an entire cascade of events can begin and water will appear to be staying perfectly stable unless you are running something like an Apex monitoring system that says "hey, elevation of ammonia 43 minutes and 17 seconds after feeding after every water change and cleaning"

I have 7.8 pH to 8.4 pH in almost all my tanks. The higher the pH, the more toxic ammonia and nitrite are.

So, maybe make water changes smaller, and only if nitrites/ammonia are detected after a meal. 

Do a small water change every other week, and don't scrub anything (just a gentle swish in the old water).

Only clean the front pane of glass on the tank, leave the rest to grow a biofilm. 

Look for any signs of emaciation or bloat (parasites can cause both)

If another fish dies, consider a necropsy (only way to identify cause of death).

Low dose aquarium salt in the water, to give their immune system support 

[eatyourpeas]

There was no mention of tank temperature, and that may be exacerbating inmune issues due to stress. Bettas like warm water, White Clouds prefer it on the cool side, for example.

As others mentioned above, too much cleaning. Your BB needs a place to rest, and critters do not like their house messed up too often.

The only reason for having floss in a canister filter is as a water polishing. You should be fine without it. I replaced the media in my canister filters with 20ppi and sponges and ceramic rings. They get cleaned once every 4 months or so. I do not think your tanks are overstocked, so small water changes should suffice, especially with the canister filter.

I hope you can get the tank to a good point again.

[Goldie Blue]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:48 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

When you say you had a fish just "wither away", that sounds like wasting disease to me (parasite)

Yes, he stopped eating, lost some color, and just wasted away. Is this something you'd notice in their poop? None of the fish have had white stringy poop, and like I mentioned before outside of the degrading tails on the bettas, there were no visible signs on the outside of their bodies other than this one fish. The three Oto's that died shortly after the white cloud just dropped dead overnight, they were perfectly active and moving around the night before. 

 

On 5/19/2022 at 2:37 PM, eatyourpeas said:

There was no mention of tank temperature

I keep the tank at 80 Fahrenheit. 

So right now I have the second dose of Jungle Fungus Clear in the tank. I am scheduled to do the water change on Sunday...should I then treat for parasites in the tank?

All this information is super helpful and I will move forward with the cleaning advice from here on out. 

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

I have a 55g, and a 10g with freshwater fish in it. 55g has been set up since May 2021, and 10g since Jan of 2022. 

I am having issues in these tanks despite the fact I do water changes every week, and the water parameters are reading fine on a consistent basis with API tube tests. I will list what I have in each tank below, but I just don't know what I might be doing wrong.

10g - 1 Betta and 1 Nerite snail. ZooMed Nano canister filter. Has an airstone, and the Betta I had placed in there has slowly but surely had its tail degrade. When I first got him, it had white edges, and I thought "oh wow that is pretty", but now I am wondering if he had fin rot to start.

55g - Eheim 350 classic canister, large air stone bar. Stocked with 5 (was 6, 1 died) white cloud minnows, 1 clown pleco, 1 (was 4, 3 died) Oto's, my baby boy Goldie Blue who is a halfmoon betta. A handful of assassin snails.

In the last 3 weeks I had a white cloud just wither away, no obvious signs of illness, ich, or injuries. I chalked it up to maybe he was old, but then 3 of my Oto's died within the last two weeks. Again, no signs of obvious illness. No red marks, or white dots, or fuzz. 

I have not added anything at all to the tank in the last two months. I am religious about my weekly water changes and cleanings.

My issue is I have suspected both my bettas have had fin rot for a while now. Some of you may remember my posts about Goldie Blue being a marble betta, but now I am not so sure he wasn't just hella stressed out. His fins look like crap, and he went almost totally gold and didn't return his colors. Both of their tails look ragged and awful, and I just was not sure if I needed to medicate 😞 

So after losing those fish, and seeing both bettas fins looking terrible, I have added Jungle Fungus Clear. I am on my second dose (package says to add tabs, then wait 4 days, do 25% water change then add dose again). So tonight is my second dose for both tanks.

Parameters are below, and have been consistent for weeks, if not last 2-3 months:

pH: 8 (always this high)

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: between 5-20 (pic included)

Hardness about a 10

The ONLY think I can think of, at least for the 55g is that I had not changed out the white filter pad on top of my Eheim classis 350 in 2 months. When I did maintenance on it this past week that white filter pad was icky. I usually swish out all the ceramic media, and the blue pad once every 2 months in water from the tank. 

Also, I take everything that isn't live plants out of my tanks EVERY week, and scrub them down. I wipe down the walls every week. I am really thorough, is it too much? 

My parameters are always good, I just don't understand what is going on and thought I'd ask the brilliant minds here. 

Please ask me for any further information or pics, happy to provide them so I can get some help. Thank you in advance!

 

 

Fill that filter with 30 ppi foam (kind of course) No rocks, or Matrix or whatever. No need for filter pads either. Let it run without cleaning until the flow noticeably slows. What you are doing is giving the tank the most surface area for benifitial bacteria you can. This will keep your water clean and clear of bad bacteria, keeping the fish healthy.

You can't test for bad bacteria but you can see it, the water just looks dull. What you want is clear water where the fish look like they are in air, this is how you know the water is bacteria free. Also, lots of aeration too. 

This pic is my tank looking from the side through 4 feet of water, it is clear and no pads, just large filters with course foam. Oh, and an undergravel too. 

p.s.  You can clean off anything you like but be careful with filter media is all. The surfaces of decor and the tanks walls have very little good bacteria. All surfaces have it but they just don't have much like the filter media. Search youtube for the aquarium coop video "optimizing HOB filters, the foam applies to any filter, canister or whatever. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Wrencher_Scott

[Bev C]

@Goldie Blue Bless your heart, hope you can  get everything back to normal and  healthy fish again. I am only here for support,  sorry. I do not have any advice. These  ladies and gentlemen have way more experience and knowledge than me .   Best Wishes  keep us posted please 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Bev C

[Dancing Matt]

To mention something I didn't see, You will want to make sure there is not too much current for the Bettas. Lots of flow has potential to stress a betta or affect their fins.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/19/2022 at 3:53 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Yes, he stopped eating, lost some color, and just wasted away. Is this something you'd notice in their poop? None of the fish have had white stringy poop, and like I mentioned before outside of the degrading tails on the bettas, there were no visible signs on the outside of their bodies other than this one fish. The three Oto's that died shortly after the white cloud just dropped dead overnight, they were perfectly active and moving around the night before. 

 

I keep the tank at 80 Fahrenheit. 

So right now I have the second dose of Jungle Fungus Clear in the tank. I am scheduled to do the water change on Sunday...should I then treat for parasites in the tank?

All this information is super helpful and I will move forward with the cleaning advice from here on out. 

I hate to give medicating advice. But I do like to use this attached chart at least for identification of disease. I don't use the brands they refer to. Instead I use the ones that are called the quarantine trio on Aquarium Co-Op's shop. I also made myself notes about this chart and what the medications it recommends actually do. Then I find the equivalent Aquarium Co-Op medications and just use those because I trust Co-op's products. 

I like this co-op article about medication: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/how-to-use-quaratine-med-trio

[Torrey]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:53 PM, Goldie Blue said:

Yes, he stopped eating, lost some color, and just wasted away. Is this something you'd notice in their poop? None of the fish have had white stringy poop, and like I mentioned before outside of the degrading tails on the bettas, there were no visible signs on the outside of their bodies other than this one fish. The three Oto's that died shortly after the white cloud just dropped dead overnight, they were perfectly active and moving around the night before. 

 

I keep the tank at 80 Fahrenheit. 

So right now I have the second dose of Jungle Fungus Clear in the tank. I am scheduled to do the water change on Sunday...should I then treat for parasites in the tank?

All this information is super helpful and I will move forward with the cleaning advice from here on out. 

Goldie Blue, the white clouds can tolerate this temp for short times like they do in the wild in the summer. If the betta is showing signes of stress, I don't think he can safely acclimate to the lower temps the whiteclouds need for good health.

[modified lung]

Another thing I think no one mentioned yet is bettas often get sick easily if they aren't on food made especially for bettas. And another note on over cleanliness is that it leaves openings for bad bacteria or other bad microorganisms to take over. It might look nicer but diseases tend to spread faster in overly clean tanks.

 

[Cbass]

I'm actually going through the same thing with my small nano tank. After reading a lot of the feedback I think I may have a better idea of might have happened. Hope things get better! Agree with what everyone here says about tank cleaning. I have a 20 gal rimless, planted. As much as I dislike the algae growth, I really only clean the front glass and leave the rest for my clean up crew. It's to the point where they won't bother with algae wafers. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/19/2022 at 1:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

ZooMed Nano canister filter

I'm not familiar, but going to pull up a sheet to try to understand the filter design.  (note: it's a great filter for the tank you have, so that's awesome). You can absolutely get rid of the carbon and the ceramic media and replace it with sponge.  I don't want to try to be overwhelming or make things seem difficult for you.  The long and short of it is that you don't need carbon, it's helpful, but most people only run carbon to remove meds from the water. If you're dosing meds at all you absolutely MUST remove the carbon first.  The ceramic media included in the filter is very poor quality and has extremely minimal surface area.  I would recommend measuring your filter cavity so you have a general idea of what size sponge you need. The local shop should have some sponge you can purchase, the easiest thing is probably going to be something like the aquaclear 75 sponge and cutting it to shape.  you can also add other ceramic media that is of better quality.  It should have some visible holes on the surface, not just be a very hard/dense ring.  Pondguru has some videos on good vs. bad media and uses a microscope to show off the differences.

On 5/19/2022 at 1:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Eheim 350 classic canister

The ONLY think I can think of, at least for the 55g is that I had not changed out the white filter pad on top of my Eheim classis 350 in 2 months. When I did maintenance on it this past week that white filter pad was icky. I usually swish out all the ceramic media, and the blue pad once every 2 months in water from the tank. 

Thank you! Just so I understand and don't mess things up even more, my canister has ceramic rings on the bottom, then a blue coarse filter pad (never been replaced), then ceramic balls, then the white pad I mentioned before. So, would I place the 30 ppi foam in the spot the white pad would go?

Hopefully this helps explain how the filter works and how to set it up.

On 5/19/2022 at 1:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

In the last 3 weeks I had a white cloud just wither away, no obvious signs of illness, ich, or injuries. I chalked it up to maybe he was old, but then 3 of my Oto's died within the last two weeks. Again, no signs of obvious illness. No red marks, or white dots, or fuzz. 

I think all of those deaths are temp related (see at the end of this post).  PLEASE watch this to understand the impact of temp on the fish in this situation.

 

 

On 5/19/2022 at 1:06 AM, Goldie Blue said:

Also, I take everything that isn't live plants out of my tanks EVERY week, and scrub them down. I wipe down the walls every week. I am really thorough, is it too much? 

I would recommend using a gravel vac only.  By doing this much cleaning it's very easy for you to introduce something into the tank as a result.  It could be soap or something else that finds it way onto something that gets added back into the tank itself.  You never should have to remove plants, rocks, wood, gravel, etc. from the tank itself. You should be able to vacuum the substrate with a siphon and leave that as your only necessary maintenance besides cleaning the filters.  The goal is to get your tank cycled, and you absolutely need to give the tank time to do so. Testing is going to be the method to understand when the tank is really cycled and when we can rule out the nitrite/ammonia spikes as an issue for fish deaths.
 

On 5/19/2022 at 12:07 PM, Torrey said:

1. Did you do a full quarantine including preventative parasite treatment on every single fish?

2. Are you testing for ammonia and nitrites ~hour after feeding?

I'd highly recommend making sure you're treating fish, especially the bettas with meds per the med trio from aquarium co-op. 
 

On 5/19/2022 at 1:50 PM, Dancing Matt said:

To mention something I didn't see, You will want to make sure there is not too much current for the Bettas. Lots of flow has potential to stress a betta or affect their fins.

 

On 5/19/2022 at 4:53 PM, Torrey said:

Goldie Blue, the white clouds can tolerate this temp for short times like they do in the wild in the summer. If the betta is showing signes of stress, I don't think he can safely acclimate to the lower temps the whiteclouds need for good health.

I'd recommend using Aq Advisor so you have a tool to check temperature ranges for the fish you're keeping!  The WCMM are a cool water species and want to be in the 70-72 range, you have them almost 10 degrees too warm.  The betta prefers warmer water.  The Clown / Otos might also prefer cooler temps with higher oxygenation.  If the Otos have severely red gills, you know they are stressed out.  The reason more often than not is oxygenation and/or flow.  They are a very small fish and can be delicate.

Please don't feel defeated and understand this is unfortunately part of the process.  You will have success as long as you never give up on the tank.  If you have any questions, please feel free to ask us!

Edited May 20, 2022 by nabokovfan87
pondguru new video is for the 350 model

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I agree with everyone about the overcleaning. Biofilm (beneficial bacteria) forms on objects in the tank, and it's beneficial to leave it there*. Be careful when following any filter media change suggestions. You'll want to make sure you always have cycled media in there so you don't have to go through New Tank Syndrome again which is likely to cause more fatalities and illness.  So if you decide to change media, maybe just change half, wait a month, then change the other half.

*Source: Walstad, Diana. Ecology of the Planted Aquarium.

[Guppysnail]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:18 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Be careful when following any filter media change suggestions

I agree 100%. Changing the white floss monthly and adding foam instead at monthly change that you never have to replace instead of adding new floss is one thing. Changing any more media just to change is a whole different ball game and can cause hazard in newer tanks. 
 

When I tried different media and determined I liked foam best in canisters I only changed 1 thing every 2-3 months and it was a well established tank.  Since yours is newer instead of the floss this time add foam. Maybe 6 months from now change out another small section if you choose then three months later maybe another small section.  If it’s stable and you are pleased I would not change the rest.  I tend to not fix what is not broken. To me throwing away beneficial bacteria and white floss media every month plus slowing constantly was a broken thing I chose to fix. Hope that helps. 

[isaly]

I seem to remember being advised to not clean the canister for at least six months after you set it up. I have a 406 on my 55 and have had a large sponge on one of the airstones for the last six weeks or so. While the 406 isn't a huge filter, it's pretty big on a 55. If you clean the canister too often, you may be disturbing the nitrifying bacteria. Ditto with tank surfaces. I have foam on the bottom tray, Matrix on the next two, and rings on top. I know the pond guy and the aquarium science guy dump on Matrix, but my water seems fine, my fish are all active, eating well, and happy.

I had a polishing layer on top of the foam and opened the filter to check it after 2 months. The polishing layer seemed to be dis-integrating but Not much funk at all. I took out the polishing layer and left the media alone.

Over the first few months I was having problems, serpae tetras dying...cyano, which I zapped with UL bg slime remover... As I put in more plants, left the filter alone, and went longer between water changes, the tank began to establish itself.

Right now I'm 2 to 3 weeks between gravel vac/water change, usually about 30 - 40%. I'll be sticking to this schedule. Ammonia runs 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20 - 40, pH 7.2ish, temp 76F. The water's not as crystal clear as some I see on the inter-tubes, but it's pretty good.

The test to see if I've actually learned anything will be the next tank.

Edited May 20, 2022 by isaly

[Guppysnail]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:32 PM, isaly said:

The water's not as crystal clear as some I see on the inter-tubes, but it's pretty good.

I used matrix for awhile. It did fine. I also used those ceramic biorings which did fine as well. My tanks were stable with both.   I switched those out because I have breeding plecos and pleco babies everywhere constantly and they are MESSY. 🤣. I found the foam to just catch more floaties and the pleco long fins swish gobs of floaties about constantly.   Intact seasoned media is definitely better than any type of new media as long as it’s not replaced all the time.  I think the internet folks know they are being viewed so I’m certain there are water changes and polishing pads happening for those. My water is crystal clear but still has the floaties I never see on the internet 🤣 @Fish Folk is a very successful breeder and has the most real and honest videos. Beautiful tanks with real algae and floaties. 

[Cbass]

Over cleaning the tank/filter is what I learned not to the the hard way. I'm going through the same thing with my small tank right now and the other night I realized that although my water parameters were fine, I did a big clean/water change out at the same time. Live and learn as always.