I can't decide

[Cinnebuns]

As I've mentioned in some posts, I'm getting a new tank. I have decided to go with a 20H. My goals for this tank is to be a display tank from which I can do some breeding. I don't have much space when it comes to grow out tanks because guppy things, so ideally they would at least grow out in the tank if not also hatch in it. I'm also thinking it would be nice to be a place to put my panda cory juveniles after they are big enough to come out of the fry tank but still need a little more growing. I have changed my mind a million times on how I want to stock it. I would like some input. 

For awhile I thought I was going to do WCMM, the panda cory juveniles, and Japanese trapdoor snails. Someone pointed out to me that the panda cories wouldn't appreciate the lower temp that the other 2 do. So now I'm considering rainbow fish but I'm unsure if breeding them would be as easy. I'm ok with hatching eggs elsewhere but I would prefer the fry grow up in the tank.  I'm also ok with not adding the panda cories if needed. 

Ideas? Ty

[Fish Folk]

A lot depends on what you're really interested in long term. Breeding and raising fish is exhilarating at first, but it gets taxing over time. Speaking personally, I am working on breeding about eleven species in separate tanks with just 17x aquariums total (plus a rack of jugs). In truth . . . I am actually better off that some species are NOT cooperating!

If I were trying to breed a single species in a 20 gallon aquarium without doing any more grow-out tanks . . . hmm . . . I might choose a very high quality trio of guppies or perhaps platys. They are relatively easy. Fry will stay out of the way of any Corydoras you might want to add. Most LFS will accept healthy livebearers. A few may allow you to trade them for store credit, depending on how good of a customer you are.

But if you want a very, very cool experience, you could breed Kribensis. If you get a mature pair they'll color up very nicely in a 20 gal. Dark substrate and quality feedings brings out their colors. They'll come out for you better if you have some small dither fish that stay up near the surface. We used Brilliant Rasboras. Here's a breeding video my son did for BAP...

Now, the thing is . . . the fry take     F  O  R  E  V  E  R     to grow out. When we eventually pawned them off on the LFS who took them more out of pity than interest, they were still only 1/4 the size of the parents. If you really fall in love with them, then OK! Go for it! You'll enjoy waiting forever. But my goodness . . . if you get bored easily, you'll wish you'd done something else. Here's a look at the fry not long before we sold them:

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Fish Folk

[Widgets]

You might want to look at the Least Killifish. They are a live bearer, but they drop the fry one or two a day instead of all at once. The temperature range in the sources I can find are all over the place. I've seen it listed as low as 64, so should fit with the WCMM.

@Bay Area Aquatics can provide more details. I have only started keeping them.

https://www.bayareaaquatics.com/articles/my-experience-breeding-least-killifish-heterandria-formosa12020

[Cinnebuns]

On 4/28/2022 at 9:21 PM, Fish Folk said:

A lot depends on what you're really interested in long term. Breeding and raising fish is exhilarating at first, but it gets taxing over time. Speaking personally, I am working on breeding about eleven species in separate tanks with just 17x aquariums total (plus a rack of jugs). In truth . . . I am actually better off that some species are NOT cooperating!

If I were trying to breed a single species in a 20 gallon aquarium without doing any more grow-out tanks . . . hmm . . . I might choose a very high quality trio of guppies or perhaps platys. They are relatively easy. Fry will stay out of the way of any Corydoras you might want to add. Most LFS will accept healthy livebearers. A few may allow you to trade them for store credit, depending on how good of a customer you are.

But if you want a very, very cool experience, you could breed Kribensis. If you get a mature pair they'll color up very nicely in a 20 gal. Dark substrate and quality feedings brings out their colors. They'll come out for you better if you have some small dither fish that stay up near the surface. We used Brilliant Rasboras. Here's a breeding video my son did for BAP...

Now, the thing is . . . the fry take     F  O  R  E  V  E  R     to grow out. When we eventually pawned them off on the LFS who took them more out of pity than interest, they were still only 1/4 the size of the parents. If you really fall in love with them, then OK! Go for it! You'll enjoy waiting forever. But my goodness . . . if you get bored easily, you'll wish you'd done something else. Here's a look at the fry not long before we sold them:

 

I'm already doing guppies which is why I am out of grow out tank space. I guess I could switch it. Put the guppies in the 20 and colony them and put more efforts into something else. That opens up a ton of options then. The reason I like putting the guppies in grow out instead of colony is because I don't want more than 2 pregnant females at once. I've never done it, but it seems to me that colony breeding can easily get out of hand. Plenty of people do it tho so idk maybe it's fine. I'll have to think about that. 

 

On 4/28/2022 at 9:22 PM, Widgets said:

You might want to look at the Least Killifish. They are a live bearer, but they drop the fry one or two a day instead of all at once. The temperature range in the sources I can find are all over the place. I've seen it listed as low as 64, so should fit with the WCMM.

@Bay Area Aquatics can provide more details. I have only started keeping them.

https://www.bayareaaquatics.com/articles/my-experience-breeding-least-killifish-heterandria-formosa12020

So it would be instead of the WCMM not in addition to. I realized the WCMM wouldn't work with panda cories. Killifish was my original idea but not least. I didn't know they were live bearers!  I don't really like how drab they are tho.

[Torrey]

On 4/28/2022 at 6:58 PM, Cinnebuns said:

As I've mentioned in some posts, I'm getting a new tank. I have decided to go with a 20H. My goals for this tank is to be a display tank from which I can do some breeding. I don't have much space when it comes to grow out tanks because guppy things, so ideally they would at least grow out in the tank if not also hatch in it. I'm also thinking it would be nice to be a place to put my panda cory juveniles after they are big enough to come out of the fry tank but still need a little more growing. I have changed my mind a million times on how I want to stock it. I would like some input. 

For awhile I thought I was going to do WCMM, the panda cory juveniles, and Japanese trapdoor snails. Someone pointed out to me that the panda cories wouldn't appreciate the lower temp that the other 2 do. So now I'm considering rainbow fish but I'm unsure if breeding them would be as easy. I'm ok with hatching eggs elsewhere but I would prefer the fry grow up in the tank.  I'm also ok with not adding the panda cories if needed. 

Ideas? Ty

We have two club members here breeding pandas in 68 F room temp water. Depending on the water they come from, you may need to tke 6 months to acclimate them... if you are already in possession start acclimating them now (you can drop a degree every 4 to 7 days and monitor health. Look for healthy poo to make sure their metabolism doesn't slow down to quickly to digest food).

[Cinnebuns]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:40 PM, Torrey said:

We have two club members here breeding pandas in 68 F room temp water. Depending on the water they come from, you may need to tke 6 months to acclimate them... if you are already in possession start acclimating them now (you can drop a degree every 4 to 7 days and monitor health. Look for healthy poo to make sure their metabolism doesn't slow down to quickly to digest food).

It would be pandas that are 1 month old so I have a feeling that they would adjust just fine. The only factor would be going from the warmer in that first month to the cooler. Idk if that's an issue. I could possibly work it out so that they are in cooler from birth. Currently they are housed with guppy fry but I think I might have the space to give them their own tank. 

[Torrey]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:13 PM, Cinnebuns said:

It would be pandas that are 1 month old so I have a feeling that they would adjust just fine. The only factor would be going from the warmer in that first month to the cooler. Idk if that's an issue. I could possibly work it out so that they are in cooler from birth. Currently they are housed with guppy fry but I think I might have the space to give them their own tank. 

Even my blue guppies (technically they are a guppy/endler cross) have acclimated to tanks at room temp (65 in winter to 78 in summer). The key is to not allow major temperature swings....

[Cinnebuns]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:18 PM, Torrey said:

Even my blue guppies (technically they are a guppy/endler cross) have acclimated to tanks at room temp (65 in winter to 78 in summer). The key is to not allow major temperature swings....

I'm just trying to invision how that would work going from tank 1 from birth to 1 month to tank 2 at 1 month with a temp change and not changing either tank because of other fish. I think for it to work I would have to have them used to that temp from when they hatch. I bet i could get that to work with breeder boxes off of the cooler tank. The only hitch I can see is when I sell them the person getting them might not be happy. Sigh. 

[Cinnebuns]

Do you think selling them after raising them in that temp would be an issue? 

[Torrey]

On 4/28/2022 at 10:31 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Do you think selling them after raising them in that temp would be an issue? 

Depends on your LFS. A lot of people are recognizing the benefits of not needing heaters in tanks, and are starting to buy fish that work *with* their water and environment instead of fighting it...

I have not had any problems selling mine, especially as mine are hardy, healthy and attractive (not pandas, my 2 types of danios, my strains of endlers, and my guppies).

[Widgets]

On 4/28/2022 at 11:05 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I don't really like how drab they are tho.

They are a nich fish. Their size and unique gestation pattern help increase their appeal. Definitely the "little brown fish" that Cory has mentioned.

[Hannah Parker]

Have you ever thought about breeding rainbow shiners? I recently learned about them and am obsessed, they're so cool and I hear they can be bred easily in a 20 gal, and are also coldwater fish. I'm not sure how easy/difficult it would be, but I couldn't imagine a LFS being uninterested in buying the fry 🙂 

[Fish Folk]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:27 AM, hannah662parker said:

Have you ever thought about breeding rainbow shiners? I recently learned about them and am obsessed, they're so cool and I hear they can be bred easily in a 20 gal, and are also coldwater fish. I'm not sure how easy/difficult it would be, but I couldn't imagine a LFS being uninterested in buying the fry 🙂 

Beautiful fish! One of my favorites. Many LFS won’t carry. But they sell great online, or at fish club auctions.

I breed mine in a 29 gal. I set out a small glass cube with landscaping rocks in. They spawn over top. Eggs fall in, I pull, and hatch out in a plastic storage bin inside the cabinet — or a DIY floating flow-through fry container…

 

[Hannah Parker]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:37 AM, Fish Folk said:

Beautiful fish! One of my favorites. Many LFS won’t carry. But they sell great online, or at fish club auctions.

I breed mine in a 29 gal. I set out a small glass cube with landscaping rocks in. They spawn over top. Eggs fall in, I pull, and hatch out in a plastic storage bin inside the cabinet — or a DIY floating flow-through fry container…

 

I'm pretty sure I read your thread about breeding them! They are so cool and I would love to take inspiration from what you did someday. I think the fact that they're US native is extra cool too. I'm surprised LFS wouldn't want to carry, but I don't really know much about selling/breeding fish so I'm sure they have their reasons. 

[Fish Folk]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:42 AM, hannah662parker said:

I'm pretty sure I read your thread about breeding them! They are so cool and I would love to take inspiration from what you did someday. I think the fact that they're US native is extra cool too. I'm surprised LFS wouldn't want to carry, but I don't really know much about selling/breeding fish so I'm sure they have their reasons. 

Many states prohibit the retail sale of native fish species. Other states require a Bait-sale license to be maintained.

Rainbow Shiners sell marvelously in Europe! I learned my breeding techniques, in part, by watching videos in German.

[Cinnebuns]

Ok, between this forum and talking to someone on Facebook, I am convinced white clouds with panda juveniles will work. Temp at 72 which is only 4F away from what the adult cories are at. It's also within range for the WCMM. This makes me feel better. I think I still might hatch them in the 72F water just to make things easier on the growing babies. If anyone sees a flaw in this plan feel free to lmk. Otherwise I feel much better about this!

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/28/2022 at 5:58 PM, Cinnebuns said:

For awhile I thought I was going to do WCMM, the panda cory juveniles, and Japanese trapdoor snails. Someone pointed out to me that the panda cories wouldn't appreciate the lower temp that the other 2 do.

Panda Cories and WCMM are perfect together.  Mine are kept in the low 70's and thrive. I really wouldn't shy away from your initial setup if your temps are in the 68-74 range.

I keep mine at a target of 72.

On 4/29/2022 at 4:10 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Ok, between this forum and talking to someone on Facebook, I am convinced white clouds with panda juveniles will work. Temp at 72 which is only 4F away from what the adult cories are at. It's also within range for the WCMM. This makes me feel better. I think I still might hatch them in the 72F water just to make things easier on the growing babies. If anyone sees a flaw in this plan feel free to lmk. Otherwise I feel much better about this!

sounds awesome to me!!!