New Tank Cycling Opinions

[Shane L.]

Hello All,

I’m new to planted tanks and maybe a little too ambitious thanks to YouTube, the internet and forums like this. So I tried to pace myself with a fairly small starter tank as an upgrade to my current 3 gallon. Two days ago I set up and started the fish-less cycling process on a heavily planted 24 gallon long rimless bookshelf tank. I’m trying to get opinions on:

1) whether to fertilize the water column with Easy Green and Easy Iron during the cycling process (already buried Aquarium Coop Easy Root Tabs during setup) - if so, how often, daily or weekly?, and

2) Should I add a flake of food daily during cycling, and

3) Water change frequency (see current schedule below)

I know there is no right way or wrong way, things work differently for everyone. So just wanted to get opinions on the 3 questions above. Photos attached and specs below:

• Tank: 24 gallon, low iron, rimless 39” x 11.75” x 11.75”
• Seachem Tidal 35 with 2 sponge thicknesses and Seachem Matrix
• Small airstone for surface agitation.
• No Co2
• Fluval Plant 3.0 light raised about 3” from water surface. Light set for 6 hours per day during cycling with intensity (will raise to 8 hours after cycling) set to about 30% intensity with slight increase every 2 weeks until I reach maximum 65% (since tank is so shallow)-this is following Bentley Pascoe setting from his Youtube videos.
• Heated with temperature around 76 to 78 degrees, probably will be around 80 degrees during summer.
• Substrate:  Eco Complete with Aquarium Coop Easy Tabs set throughout during setup. Topped with very small Aqua Natural gravel, and sprinkled with larger regular gravel and crushed dragon stone for color accents.
• Hardscape: spiderwood (boiled so no tanins), petrified wood, small dragon stones
• Plants: Based on research, all should be good with no Co2 and medium light. Anubias Nana Petite, Java Moss, Super Red Ludwigia, Bacopa, Golden Lloydeilla, Ludwigia perusensis, Ludwigia Ovalis, Rotala, Micro Sword, Giant Baby Tears, Dwarf Hairgrass, Frogbit (may not survive with airstone bubbles popping on surface and getting them wet?)
• On day 1 parameters were: Ammonia 0, Nitrites .25, Nitrates 40-80, pH 7.6, GH 15/285, KH 5-6/75-100
• On day 2 parameters were: Ammonia .5, Nitrites .25, Nitrates 20, pH 7.4, GH 14/270, KH 6/100
• I plan to do water changes daily for week 1, every other day for week 2, every 3 days for week 3 and weekly after that
• Adding Seachem Prime Stability for beneficial bacteria daily for first week per the bottle instructions. Then with each water change after that.
• I did add a medium piece of spiderwood, a few small dragonstones, java moss and 2 anubias nana petites from my cycled 3 gallon tank to help boost the cycling with beneficial bacteria (along with what is in Seachem Prime and Eco Complete).

Thanks,

Shane

Edited April 12, 2022 by Shane L.

[Patrick_G]

Wow, great first attempt! 😁 You’ll probably want to add some fertilizer since the fishless cycling process can take a while and you might as well keep the plants healthy in the meantime.  
You can ghost feed a bit of flake every day or better yet, get some aquarium ammonia and dose that directly into the tank. It’ll help your cycle along and the plants will like it too. A third option for a nice planted tank like yours would be a fish in cycle with a few hardy fish. 

[Shane L.]

Thanks, now your 75 gallon in the photo is what I wanted to start with - it looks amazing! But I'll learn on my 24 gallon first! I do have several small guppies to spare in my 3 gallon. Maybe I'll consider switching over to a fish in cycle. Forgot to mention in my post that I did add a medium piece of spiderwood, a few small dragonstones, java moss and 2 anubias nana petites from my cycled 3 gallon tank to help (I'll edit my post to add it). That coupled with Seachem Prime bacteria and whatever bacteria is in Eco Complete should help jump start the cycling too. Thanks for the input!

[AndEEss]

On 4/12/2022 at 5:26 PM, Shane L. said:

Thanks, now your 75 gallon in the photo is what I wanted to start with - it looks amazing! But I'll learn on my 24 gallon first! I do have several small guppies to spare in my 3 gallon. Maybe I'll consider switching over to a fish in cycle. Forgot to mention in my post that I did add a medium piece of spiderwood, a few small dragonstones, java moss and 2 anubias nana petites from my cycled 3 gallon tank to help (I'll edit my post to add it). That coupled with Seachem Prime bacteria and whatever bacteria is in Eco Complete should help jump start the cycling too. Thanks for the input!

Please don’t do a fish-in cycle. You’d be needlessly torturing fish. 

Just buy ammonia. 

 

[Widgets]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:49 PM, Shane L. said:

I plan to do water changes daily for week 1, every other day for week 2, every 3 days for week 3 and weekly after that

I don't see any need to water change during the cycling process. After that you can adjust your water change frequency and volume to maintain your Nitrates in your target zone.

[lefty o]

if doing a fishless cycle, dont go changing water for no reason. it just goes against what you are trying to achieve.

[Shane L.]

Also @lefty o" - Believe me, I don't want to do water changes every day. I've just seen online where it's often recommended for new heavily planted tanks to do 50% water changes daily for week 1, every other day week 2, every 3 days week 3 and weekly after that. Do you recommend not doing any water changes until it's finished cycling? Less water changes sounds good to me! 

[Widgets]

I have seen some articles suggesting water changes to help prevent algae growth during cycling. I believe Cory stated that any growth (including algae) during cycling (and seasoning) is a welcome sight. I wouldn't water change during cycling. If you are dosing Ammonia and are doing water changes, you have to add even more Ammonia. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Widgets
Stupid typos

[Patrick_G]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:23 PM, Shane L. said:

Also @lefty o" - Believe me, I don't want to do water changes every day. I've just seen online where it's often recommended for new heavily planted tanks to do 50% water changes daily for week 1, every other day week 2, every 3 days week 3 and weekly after that. Do you recommend not doing any water changes until it's finished cycling? Less water changes sounds good to me! 

I think the advice is to change water frequently in a new heavily planted tank is valid if you're using a heavily enriched aquasoil or using a rich fertilization method. It doesn't sound like you're using either one. I'd just do top offs until you add fish. 

[Shane L.]

Eco Complete is inert so no leaching from that, but maybe some from the Easy Tabs I buried ( 1 every 4 or 5 inches or so around the tank on sides, middle and back where plants are).  I won't waste my time water changing daily and just keep an eye on the water parameters. If anyone reading this feels differently, please let me know so I'll be totally conflicted on what to do, LOL. Thanks for your opinions.

[lefty o]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:23 PM, Shane L. said:

Also @lefty o" - Believe me, I don't want to do water changes every day. I've just seen online where it's often recommended for new heavily planted tanks to do 50% water changes daily for week 1, every other day week 2, every 3 days week 3 and weekly after that. Do you recommend not doing any water changes until it's finished cycling? Less water changes sounds good to me! 

in most instances, less is better. im much more into seeding a tank, and going form there, but during the establishment of beneficial bacteria ("cycle"), whatever bacteria you do have is few, and at its most fragile stage. doing water changes is when you are most likely to cause problems with the establishment of bacteria, so i say avoid water changes unless testing or some other clue tells you something is out of whack.

[AndEEss]

If you stay fishless, which I hope you do, don’t change your water. 
 

If you add fish, change water every day.

[lefty o]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:48 PM, AndEEss said:

If you stay fishless, which I hope you do, don’t change your water. 
 

If you add fish, change water every day.

fish in, you can cause the same problems by doing water changes. test before randomly changing water.

[Shane L.]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:16 PM, lefty o said:

in most instances, less is better. im much more into seeding a tank, and going form there, but during the establishment of beneficial bacteria ("cycle"), whatever bacteria you do have is few, and at its most fragile stage. doing water changes is when you are most likely to cause problems with the establishment of bacteria, so i say avoid water changes unless testing or some other clue tells you something is out of whack.

Staying fishless with the cycle. I know to expect ammonia and nitrite spikes during cycling so no water changes because of that, but what other test parameter would trigger a necessary water change during cycling?  Would I need to do a water change with high nitrates, say over 40 or 80? Or is it ok to leave nitrates high during cycling too?

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:01 PM, Shane L. said:

Staying fishless with the cycle. I know to expect ammonia and nitrite spikes during cycling so no water changes because of that, but what other test parameter would trigger a necessary water change during cycling?  Would I need to do a water change with high nitrates, say over 40 or 80? Or is it ok to leave nitrates high during cycling too?

You won't see that much nitrate that quick. And it's not a horrible amount anyway. It won't harm the cycle.

There is no reason to change water during the cycle. If it gets cloudy no problem, it will go away. 

With a fishless cycle all you have to do is be patient. I like to check for nitrites say every few days after a week or two just to see what's going on. Then just look for none. 

[modified lung]

I'll throw in some caveats to the no water change thing.

If you're total ammonia gets to ~5ppm, you start growing a too much of a species of bacteria that can't metabolize ammonia at the low levels you want in your aquarium. Nitrite-N above 1ppm for a day or two starts to noticeably stall bacteria. I'd water change only if I pass either of those levels.

Nitrate doesn't seem to mess with a cycle much. Although I've never gotten near 80 so idk what happens there. If you're using ammonia chloride, then at a little over 20ppm nitrate-N enough chloride is built up to slow down most and stop some of the bacteria.

It's also best to keep your pH above 7 and below 8.4 during your cycle if you can. And if your alkalinity goes below 40ppm or 2 KH, most of the bacteria will stop reproducing.

[Torrey]

your current nitrite, nitrate and ammonia readings are due to active substrate and root tabs leaching a little into the water column. You have a mix of light feeders and heavy feeders. 

Mmiller shared the best resource for better understanding ferts on another thread:

Fertilizer dosing guide

I would be looking for any algae growth, if not planning on adding CO2 I would use a siesta in the middle of the photo period to reduce the chances of getting an algae bloom (prevention i easier than clean up), and if plants get long and spindly, or overly light foliage, increase the length of time of each photoperiod.

My shop lights (cheap tank set ups) are currently on from 8:30 am to 12:30 pm, and then back on from 4:30 pm to 9 pm.

Because my Fluval Aquasky has better controls, my Walstad comes gradually starting at 6:30 am, hits 100% at 8:30 am, starts fading down at 12:30 pm, hts 0% at 1 pm, and starts ramping back up 5 pm, hitting 100% at 6 pm, and starts ramping down to red lights at 10 pm (stimulates my brain to want to go to sleep) with total darkness at midnight. 

Fluval light sounds complicated, because of ramp up and ramp down times. The key part is a 4 hour siesta gets the CO2 levels up to maximum passive saturation levels for the plants to use, and by turning off after 4 to 6 hours, is turning off when plants have maximum efficiency utilized CO2 and light for growth...  and before algae starts utilizing the light (due to plants having utilized the CO2).

[Shane L.]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:33 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

You won't see that much nitrate that quick. And it's not a horrible amount anyway. It won't harm the cycle.

There is no reason to change water during the cycle. If it gets cloudy no problem, it will go away. 

With a fishless cycle all you have to do is be patient. I like to check for nitrites say every few days after a week or two just to see what's going on. Then just look for none. 

Thanks for the info!

[Shane L.]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:41 PM, modified lung said:

I'll throw in some caveats to the no water change thing.

If you're total ammonia gets to ~5ppm, you start growing a too much of a species of bacteria that can't metabolize ammonia at the low levels you want in your aquarium. Nitrite-N above 1ppm for a day or two starts to noticeably stall bacteria. I'd water change only if I pass either of those levels.

Nitrate doesn't seem to mess with a cycle much. Although I've never gotten near 80 so idk what happens there. If you're using ammonia chloride, then at a little over 20ppm nitrate-N enough chloride is built up to slow down most and stop some of the bacteria.

It's also best to keep your pH above 7 and below 8.4 during your cycle if you can. And if your alkalinity goes below 40ppm or 2 KH, most of the bacteria will stop reproducing.

Ammonia, ph, KH and nitrates seem to be in safe ranges per your numbers above. Nitrite is at 1ppm so I’ll keep an eye on that. May be even higher since 1.0, 2.0 and 5.0 are all nearly the same color on the chart! Thanks

[Shane L.]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:07 PM, Torrey said:

your current nitrite, nitrate and ammonia readings are due to active substrate and root tabs leaching a little into the water column. You have a mix of light feeders and heavy feeders. 

Mmiller shared the best resource for better understanding ferts on another thread:

Fertilizer dosing guide

I would be looking for any algae growth, if not planning on adding CO2 I would use a siesta in the middle of the photo period to reduce the chances of getting an algae bloom (prevention i easier than clean up), and if plants get long and spindly, or overly light foliage, increase the length of time of each photoperiod.

My shop lights (cheap tank set ups) are currently on from 8:30 am to 12:30 pm, and then back on from 4:30 pm to 9 pm.

Because my Fluval Aquasky has better controls, my Walstad comes gradually starting at 6:30 am, hits 100% at 8:30 am, starts fading down at 12:30 pm, hts 0% at 1 pm, and starts ramping back up 5 pm, hitting 100% at 6 pm, and starts ramping down to red lights at 10 pm (stimulates my brain to want to go to sleep) with total darkness at midnight. 

Fluval light sounds complicated, because of ramp up and ramp down times. The key part is a 4 hour siesta gets the CO2 levels up to maximum passive saturation levels for the plants to use, and by turning off after 4 to 6 hours, is turning off when plants have maximum efficiency utilized CO2 and light for growth...  and before algae starts utilizing the light (due to plants having utilized the CO2).

Thanks for the great fertilizer link. I was considering trying the light siesta once the tank gets cycled, but wasn’t aware it was an option during cycling. Maybe I’ll add that in the mix. Thanks

[Torrey]

You are welcome! My Walstad inspired tank (see link in my signature) started with no aquarium specific light, but was on a siesta due to the other lights. I was not satisfied with my plants growing sideways so I got a Fluval Aquasky and programmed for a combo of my needs and plant needs. It's been the hardest tank to grow a satisfactory amount of algae for snails, lol

[Shane L.]

Last night at 9 days after startup it seemed like I got my first hint at possibly being cycled? At day 7 ammonia was down to zero. At day 9 both ammonia and nitrites were at zero and nitrates at 5. I guess I'll monitor it for at least another week for any spikes, but if they stay in this range, I can add the first fish! pH, GH and KH have stayed stable the whole time, with pH fluctuating just a little.