CO2, Algae, New Plants. Need guidance on strategy.

[Minanora]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:36 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Keep an eye on bubble count but check it every 2 hours the next couple of days

Okay. Thank you. Now when I'm adjusting it to fix it, should I be adjusting the smaller needle valve under the bubble counter or the main pressure valve of the regulator?

I'm at about 35psi on the main valve. Trying to keep the flow valve at about 4 bubbles per second. I've had to adjust things less over the last two days. I've just been adjusting the flow when I see the bubble count drop. I have a single stage gla regulator.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/16/2022 at 8:14 AM, Minanora said:

Okay. Thank you. Now when I'm adjusting it to fix it, should I be adjusting the smaller needle valve under the bubble counter or the main pressure valve of the regulator?

I'm at about 35psi on the main valve. Trying to keep the flow valve at about 4 bubbles per second. I've had to adjust things less over the last two days. I've just been adjusting the flow when I see the bubble count drop. I have a single stage gla regulator

There's a setting for the main pressure Cory recommends in his CO2, that's what I've always set it to, then gone ahead and adjust the needle valve accordingly. Depending on the size of the tank that pressure should change slightly but still be somewhat in that range.

 

Just checked, he said he runs his around 40 or so. Anywhere near there is fine.

Edited April 16, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/16/2022 at 8:17 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Trying to keep the flow valve at about 4 bubbles per second. I've had to adjust things less over the last two days. I've just been adjusting the flow when I see the bubble count drop. I have a single stage gla regulator

This is where I think I screwed up the most on my setup. Bubble per is an easy shorthand we all use but I think something else Cory mentioned is a better mechanism. Watching the bubbles when he added co2 on the 800 gallon in a recent video he said he watches and changes the flow based on if the fine bubbles are making it to the surface. If they are, turn the rate down slightly and check once the pressure equalizes.  Whenever I get my CO2 setup, that's my plan and then I'll figure out whatever the settings are to achieve that and test the CO2 level in the tank during peak lighting.

For me, I run very high flow tanks, and so that's a major concern I've always had setting up CO2 and just gassing it off to the atmosphere.

[Minanora]

On 4/16/2022 at 8:17 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

There's a setting for the main pressure Cory recommends in his CO2, that's what I've always set it to, then gone ahead and adjust the needle valve accordingly. Depending on the size of the tank that pressure should change slightly but still be somewhat in that range.

Thank you so much for all of the advice.

I do keep an eye on my co2 rate in the water. My spraybar also does a good job of mixing things up. I plan to try another type of diffuser when I'm cleaning the neo diffuser I have. Just to see if that makes any difference. I definitely make sure I'm not losing excess co2 with bubbles making it to the surface.

I'll have to find the pressure recommendation that Cory has. I am sure I'm close to the sweet spot though!

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/16/2022 at 9:09 AM, Minanora said:

I'll have to find the pressure recommendation that Cory has. I am sure I'm close to the sweet spot though!

🙂 I went back and looked it up, he's at 40 for pressure and then he sets the needle valve. So yep, 35 is right there.

[Minanora]

On 4/16/2022 at 9:22 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

🙂 I went back and looked it up, he's at 40 for pressure and then he sets the needle valve. So yep, 35 is right there.

Thank you! I bumped mine up to 40psi. Looks pretty stable so far. Bubble count didn't change. But it would be nice to get it stable so I can be confident that it will stay stable for a two week period. Or at least close to two weeks. We'll be going on vacation for two weeks and I'm trying to make things easy for our house sitter. Still have a few weeks before we leave thankfully.

I know it's going to be a jungle, and there will likely be algae when I get home but that's okay. The tank used to be 100% self sustaining for the nitrate cycle so I'm not worried about the fish at all. Just the plants. Which is kind of ironic... 🤣

[Minanora]

I received my no spill water changer today. I now realize that I could have used some tubing and my powerhead.... Why do I forget about these things? Why? Crap. I opened it, so I won't return it. I'm going to try it out. It may be the most expensive poly tubing and valves I've ever bought in my whole life. We'll see how it does. I'm in a mild state of annoyance because I'm trying to get things done while also helping my husband with his journey in Elden Ring. Mildly annoying and frustrating game to be a copilot for.

[Minanora]

Ok, so I'm about to do a water change on the 75G. I've seen the algae growth slow since I lowered my photoperiod and light intensity yesterday. yes, the growth was that fast that I could see change in 24 hours.

I got an API phosphate test kit and tested today. What should be my target phosphate level right now while I'm taking on the algae? And what should my target be once I'm stable?

@Seattle_Aquarist, @Mmiller2001, I hate to specifically reach out to you guys, but I've read that I should be targeting around 1.3ppm for phosphates? Is this ideal with my GH/KH? Also, when the PH is low due to the co2, does that make it easier for the plants to uptake nutrients? Similar to acidified/lower pH soil for garden plants to help them uptake iron more easily.

My parameters before water change:

Nitrate: 10ppm
Phosphate: .50ppm
GH: 15
KH: 10
PH: (CO2 running) 6.8
 

adding @Jack.of.all.aquariums, I didn't mean to exclude you from my questions. 😛

Also, I'm about to do my 40% water change. I didn't want to decide on my fert dose until I inquired with you guys. Any anyone else who wants to chime in!

I was thinking about just doing a half dose of Gro+ this time since my previous water change was on Thursday and this was my status for Nitrates after: I was at 5ppm after the water change and I dosed 4 pumps of easy green after.

[Mmiller2001]

What are your other dosing amounts? I'd also shoot for 50% changes. It's only a few gallons more.

What's the substrate again?

Does this new water system you have alter source water chemistry?

Edited April 16, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Minanora]

On 4/16/2022 at 4:39 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What are your other dosing amounts? I'd also shoot for 50% changes. It's only a few gallons more.

What's the substrate again?

Does this new water system you have alter source water chemistry?

So I have just recently started dosing ferts again. I stopped dosing back in December because I didn't understand what I was doing and didn't know where to start because I was starting to have battles with algae. So I just stopped pretty much everything and let everything die back due to decision/information paralysis.

My substrate is mostly Eco-complete plant substrate. The actual substrate ratio is 100lbs of eco complete, 15 pounds of UN Controsoil black, medium, (these two are mixed together), and it's all mostly capped with 30lbs of flourite black sand. The middle of the tank is the low point of substrate with mostly just sand.

I started dosing again last Wednesday. If you can call it that; it's been a short time. Here's what I've done with water changes and ferts.

On Wednesday when I planted: 30% water change - dosed only with Seachem Flourish Advance (This is that one that is for newly planted plants). I dosed 1 capful plus 1ml from a pipette.

On Thursday I got the CO2 setup: Dosed a full 7 pumps of easy green.

On Tuesday: 40% water change. 10mL of the Fluval Gro+ Micro, 4 pumps of easy green, 4 pumps of easy iron.

On Thursday: 40% water change. 4 pumps of easy green.

Today: 50% water change. No ferts yet today.

New water change system does not alter the water. I have even been using a basic conditioner to remove chlorine so I can get accurate results on my water tests while I figure this all out.

 

I hate to call out for help like this but I have two weeks before we're gone for a two week vacation. So I can do complex things up until then. I'd like to get it to a point where the houseguests will be able to just leave it alone for two weeks or do doses of ONE thing. Maybe. I just want things to be easy for them. But they're capable of using something like easy green. I have publisher so I can make a calendar with checkboxes for tasks, easy peasy.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Minanora
typo

[Mmiller2001]

I'm not familiar with some of those fertilizers so I couldn't really tell you a number. But I can show you what I dose and maybe that would help? I always like to start a bit leaner if my plant load is low. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/16/2022 at 4:09 PM, Minanora said:

@Seattle_Aquarist, @Mmiller2001, I hate to specifically reach out to you guys, but I've read that I should be targeting around 1.3ppm for phosphates? Is this ideal with my GH/KH? Also, when the PH is low due to the co2, does that make it easier for the plants to uptake nutrients? Similar to acidified/lower pH soil for garden plants to help them uptake iron more easily.

My parameters before water change:

Nitrate: 10ppm
Phosphate: .50ppm
GH: 15
KH: 10
PH: (CO2 running) 6.8

Hi @Minanora

Are you still growing the Nymphoides hydrophylla?

Every nutrient is a little different with regards to the effect of pH.  Here is a chart of pH and nutrient availability (I suspect the Fe availability is based upon the most common type of iron for fertilizers - EDTA chelated):


Personally I feel my biggest algae issues come from light duration and intensity as opposed to nutrients.  As for phosphates I have had tanks as high as 5 ppm and as low as 0.00.  Typically I try to maintain 0.25 - 1.0 ppm of PO4 but honestly I don't worry that much about it.  -Roy

PS:  for those of you that have been following my posts regarding concerns about using the correct types of iron for the pH in our tanks I came across the following interesting  information from Michigan State University.
 

Quote

Chelates can best be visualized as a lobster’s claw (appropriate since the word chelate comes from a Greek word meaning claw) made of carbon and hydrogen atoms holding an iron ion. The more bonds, called ligands, that form between the iron ion and the carbon atoms, the stronger the iron ion is held within the chelate.The strength of the chelate’s hold on the iron ion determines, as pH increases, how long the iron ion will continue to be in solution and therefore available to plants.

There are four commonly used chelates: citric acid, EDTA (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid), DTPA (Diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid) and EDDHA (Ethylenediamine di(o-hydroxyphenylacetic acid)). According to data presented by Norvel (Equilibria of Metal Chelates in Soil Solution, in Micronutrients in Agriculture, Soil Science of America, 1972) citric acid does not strongly bond with iron and is not effective at pHs above 6.0. EDTA strongly holds iron in solution up to pH 6.0, but by pH 6.5, almost one-half the iron is precipitated, and by pH 7.0, almost none of the iron is available to plants.  DTPA is an excellent iron source up to media pH 7.0; however, 60 percent of the iron is precipitated and unavailable by pH 8.0.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Minanora]

@Mmiller2001 That is helpful to a degree. My pH, GH, and KH are much much higher than yours. I imagine that this affects the uptake of nutrients quite a bit. I assume it's best to test the pH right before the CO2 starts in the morning to get your base level. Peak saturation I assume is just before it turns off.

I'm not sure how "planted" you'd consider my tank... I feel like it's well planted but I am probably wrong.

My stocking is vastly different. 14 adult guppies, 12 harlequin rasboras, 2 adult swordtails, 6 three stripe corydoras, I assume theres 4 adult otos... Then there's probably 30 orange neo shrimp and 10 total baby/youth guppies.

I have a fluval 407 canister and a sponge filter.

[Minanora]

@Seattle_Aquarist This is extremely useful information. I assume nutrients become more available/uptaken as the CO2 drops the pH? Even though the offgassed pH is higher?

On 4/16/2022 at 6:52 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Are you still growing the Nymphoides hydrophylla?

Yes. I think it's quite healthy actually! But you're the expert, imo. Here's a look at the mass I have developed. It suffers from some hair algae, like most things in my tank.

 

I greatly reduced my photoperiod and reduced the intensity by 20% across the board except for red (pink)

 

Bonus helper hand photo.

[nabokovfan87]

I'm very familiar with that very thick carpet of algae on the wall. I mean hey, at least we can get SOMETHING to carpet, right?

Looks good. I am right where you're at and following along trying to keep my tank moving forward as well.

[Minanora]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:27 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'm very familiar with that very thick carpet of algae on the wall. I mean hey, at least we can get SOMETHING to carpet, right?

Looks good. I am right where you're at and following along trying to keep my tank moving forward as well.

By the way, the no spill python water change thing.... turned my usual 2-3 hour water change into a 35 minute task. Considering my payrate, that was a fantastic exchange. And my shoulder is totally unaffected!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:22 PM, Minanora said:

@Seattle_Aquarist This is extremely useful information. I assume nutrients become more available/uptaken as the CO2 drops the pH? Even though the offgassed pH is higher?

Yes. I think it's quite healthy actually! But you're the expert, imo. Here's a look at the mass I have developed. It suffers from some hair algae, like most things in my tank.

 

I greatly reduced my photoperiod and reduced the intensity by 20% across the board except for red (pink)

 

Bonus helper hand photo.

Glad to see the Nymphoides doing well for you.  Yes, the availability of the nutrients is directly related to the pH - assuming the nutrients are in the tank to begin with.  -Roy

[Minanora]

On 4/16/2022 at 9:01 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Glad to see the Nymphoides doing well for you.  Yes, the availability of the nutrients is directly related to the pH - assuming the nutrients are in the tank to begin with.  -Roy

Thank you Roy! I appreciate all of your knowledge. You are somehow to give the guidance I need even when I don't explain my questions very well. 🙂 I get stuck in my own head a lot. This is why I'm not a teacher!

[Minanora]

Tangent time about Iron. @Mmiller2001, @Seattle_Aquarist

Mmiller, I see that you're dosing both DTPA and EDTA Fe chelates. Why both? If the plants are able to use the iron from the DTPA well from a pH of 7.0 and below, I would think that just dosing that would be the best thing to do. Especially since your degassed pH is below 7 already.

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/16/2022 at 11:02 PM, Minanora said:

Tangent time about Iron. @Mmiller2001, @Seattle_Aquarist

Mmiller, I see that you're dosing both DTPA and EDTA Fe chelates. Why both? If the plants are able to use the iron from the DTPA well from a pH of 7.0 and below, I would think that just dosing that would be the best thing to do. Especially since your degassed pH is below 7 already.

 

The CSM+B is the EDTA chelate and it's a mix of Iron and other trace elements (Boron, Copper and so on). If I was only using the CSM+B, and if I wanted to raise or lower Fe, I would have to raise or lower the other traces along with Fe. By adding the DPTA Fe 11%, I'm free to increase Fe without raising the other trace elements. Also, DPTA chelate keeps the Fe available longer in the water column (at least this was how it was explained to me). This gives the plants a bit more iron later in the light period. 

As long as your pH is such that 100% of the Fe is available, it doesn't matter which chelate is being used. I 100% could use ferrous gluconate, but choose DTPA since I was making an order for other nutrients that day. 

[Jack.of.all.aquariums]

Feel free to tag me. I don't mind helping 😁

@Mmiller2001 has got you covered with dosing. I'll add a few things outside of dosing strategies because my methods are quite a bit different and I don't want to make it more confusing haha

More plants! In my opinion your tank is still pretty lightly planted. Start propagating what you can. If you have questions about propagating any species I'm happy to help.

Don't fear trimming. The plant leaves that are fully covered in algae are a lost cause. Just trim them off.

Ignoring the algae most of your plants look very healthy. You're on a great path!

[Minanora]

On 4/17/2022 at 5:34 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

The CSM+B is the EDTA chelate and it's a mix of Iron and other trace elements (Boron, Copper and so on). If I was only using the CSM+B, and if I wanted to raise or lower Fe, I would have to raise or lower the other traces along with Fe. By adding the DPTA Fe 11%, I'm free to increase Fe without raising the other trace elements. Also, DPTA chelate keeps the Fe available longer in the water column (at least this was how it was explained to me). This gives the plants a bit more iron later in the light period. 

As long as your pH is such that 100% of the Fe is available, it doesn't matter which chelate is being used. I 100% could use ferrous gluconate, but choose DTPA since I was making an order for other nutrients that day. 

And this concentration of copper per dose must be fine for shrimp. I've yet to actually look at the level of copper that is actually toxic for invertebrates.

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:20 AM, Minanora said:

And this concentration of copper per dose must be fine for shrimp. I've yet to actually look at the level of copper that is actually toxic for invertebrates.

Completely fine. In fact, copper free fertilize are just a selling gimmick.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:02 PM, Minanora said:

Tangent time about Iron. @Mmiller2001, @Seattle_Aquarist

Mmiller, I see that you're dosing both DTPA and EDTA Fe chelates. Why both? If the plants are able to use the iron from the DTPA well from a pH of 7.0 and below, I would think that just dosing that would be the best thing to do. Especially since your degassed pH is below 7 already.

 

@Mmiller2001 is correct.  I use CSM+B not for the EDTA chelated iron it contains but for the other micro-nutrients it offers, manganese, magnesium, zinc, molybdenum, and boron.  I dose the DTPA and ferrous gluconate to cover the iron requirements.  Ferrous gluconate for the rapid uptake and DTPA for longer release.  Actually I don't de-gas my tanks, I run my CO2 24/7 but run airstones at night to avoid CO2 levels causing fish distress.

[Minanora]

Last tangent for ferts... What is up with these macro ferts reach containing so much K2O? I feel like that makes dosing each macro with these nearly impossible.

@Seattle_Aquarist, @Mmiller2001, what do each of you use for macros on your 75s?

 

also, should I be concerned with my GH (15°) and KH(10°)? I know that is impacting the nutrient uptake for some minerals, but I wonder if it really matters as much with the lower (6.8-6.4) pH.