Fish getting sick

[J. Holmes]

Sorry, long post!
 

I have two tanks that keep getting sick. One is 30 Gallons and the other is 20. Both are set between 76-78. I did a water check. It’s all zero and PH is 7.5. I do weekly water changes and checks. I’ve been battling a major algae issue and discovered that I have been WAY over feeding. Tanks were cycled for 2 months with live plants before adding fish. Fish were slowly added over 2 months. Fish were quarantined and medicated for a month before adding them. I’ve had all the fish for a month before getting sick. Tanks are 5 months old. 
 

I learned I was over feeding because I noticed some of my fish were getting a little fat, so I started to starve my 30 gallon. I checked my 20 gallon and noticed that an endler and my betta had swollen bellies as well. So I’ve starved that tank as well. I’m on day 4 of that.
 

Since doing this, I’ve started getting sick fish. These fish were all moved to a desperate quarantine tank. I do not cross contaminate tools. Quarantine tank and 20 gallon have been treated with Maracyn.

From my 20 gallon: My swollen belly Endler died (I’m assuming constipation from over feeding). I’m going to try and treat my swollen belly betta with a salt dip (assuming constipation again). I got an Endler with cottonmouth, but he died.
 

From my 40 gallon tank: One tetra with a swollen belly is still alive. Another tetra got cottonmouth (moved today and being treated). An Endler that was being bullied and not eating was moved to quarantine. He’s still isn’t eating and now has a swollen eye.

So, is over feeding the culprit to all these issues? I’m new to all this, so I’m trying to understand what I’ve done wrong and how I can fix it. Am I going to lose all my fish? Do I need to nuke my tanks and try again? Thanks for all the help and advice! 

[Fish Folk]

Sorry, mate. This is an unfortunately tough lesson in fish keeping. "Always underfeed before you overfeed." The swollen eye, swollen belly, etc all sound like the natural result of over feeding.

Basically, infection builds up when the water isn't clean enough. Fin rot, pop-eye, bloat . . . all generally are results of imbalance with feeding.

Once excess uneaten food begins to decay on a regular basis, the likelihood of infections -- whether fungal, bacterial, or other -- greatly increases.

When you water change, try to do a 30% water change weekly. Gravel vac some to pick up surface detritus. Make sure you're using water treatment when you put water back in (unless you're on a well).

Cut feedings back to 1x per day for a week. Improve the foods you're feeding. Try some higher quality frozen foods -- like spirulina brine shrimp. Both Omega one and Hikari brands are my favorites. I'd plop a frozen cube into a cup of hot water to let it unthaw. Then use a syringe with an airline attached to feed just a small portion. You won't feed the whole cube.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I'm sorry you're going through this. One of the first questions I have is did your tank ever cycle? Did you get Nitrates? Right now you said your levels are all 0- if that includes Nitrates then your tank is having a cycle issue- which can cause stress and illness. 

Overfeeding I suspect is a problem but not the only one.

[J. Holmes]

On 4/9/2022 at 12:59 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I'm sorry you're going through this. One of the first questions I have is did your tank ever cycle? Did you get Nitrates? Right now you said your levels are all 0- if that includes Nitrates then your tank is having a cycle issue- which can cause stress and illness. 

Overfeeding I suspect is a problem but not the only one.

We’ve been using the API master test kit and have only rarely had a mild elevation in nitrates from the very beginning. We’ve never had ammonia or nitrites and pH has remained stable around 7.4-7.6. We’ve been fighting a lot of algae (red algae at first then hair algae primarily after increasing the green and blue spectrum to counter the red algae).

algae was likely a battle due to overfeeding but in the past two weeks we’ve been doing ~30-40% water changes ~2x per week in the larger tank because it also has significant green dust algae. The smaller tank has only had a hair algae issue and hasn’t been changed as often. 
 

The lack of water parameter shifts has made us curious about the algae and now illness issues. Thanks for all the help!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@J Holmes are you feeding fertilizers? That to me would explain never having nitrite/ammonia but some nitrates. 

[J. Holmes]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:37 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@J Holmes are you feeding fertilizers? That to me would explain never having nitrite/ammonia but some nitrates. 

We use easy green fertilizer and root tabs from Co-op every 2 weeks. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Ah yeah. I suspect with the overfeeding you never truly cycled. What you are doing now my friend is a fish-in cycle combined with whatever illness you've run into. Can you post pics of the sick fish?

[J. Holmes]

Gotcha. So, what is fish-in-cycling/how do I fix it? 
 

Here are my sick fish (sorry for cloudy medicated water!) 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Well they don't look quite as bad as I thought they might. What are you medicating with now? 

Fish in cycling- basically it's a delicate process that when a cycle has never happened or did but was delicate and waivered- it requires a LOT of water parameter monitoring and frequent water changes. Think of it like this- you basically have a toilet without a handle (aka bacteria which are your friendly tank cleaners) when a tank is not cycled- bad stuff just continues to pile up on the residents (food, pee, poop) which if you were hanging out in a toilet that dirty would make you sick right? Maybe even kill you? No worries, you are the flusher- with lots of water changes- basically taking out all the bad stuff. UNTIL you get AMMONIA (water changes), then NITRITES (still water changing), then finally none of the first two and between 5-40 Nitrates! Yay toilet handle! Make sense?

Edited April 9, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
to clarify

[J. Holmes]

Ok … ugh! I thought I cycled it correctly. I left it without fish and just plants till everything was zero. So, I want to have Nitrates? What would a cycled tank parameters be? Sorry, so much to learn! 
 

Currently treating with Maracyn (just finished the treatment cycle).  Just ordered Maracyn 2 to try. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

It's ok there's a lot to learn in this hobby. If you haven't seen this video I highly recommend it- it explains cycling in a great way (with M&Ms it is a classic Cory video). 

I find that it explains the cycling very well. 

Now the issue is you are also medicating. I'm assuming we're treating for a potential bacterial infection. Have you seen any improvement since starting the meds? IF the fish are bloated due to overfeeding ONLY you may not need to medicate just stop feeding for a few days up to a week to see if you have improvement.

The problem we have when doing a fish-in cycle is the need for water changes as ammonia and nitrite appear on water tests, you may need to do a water change before every dose which might diminish the effectiveness of the medication but if you don't water change with bad parameters could also kill fish. It's a delicate balance. 

Often times though- in order to treat some bacterial infections the water just has to be EXTREMELY CLEAN, which water changes can do- and adding some basic aquarium salt. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I do understand one might have died cottonmouth though? Any signs on the other fish since?

[J. Holmes]

Yes, I had one die from a bloated belly (probably constipated) and another die of cottonmouth in my 20 gallon. I then just found a tetra with cottonmouth in my 30 gallon today and moved him out. So far no one else is showing signs, but this all happened this week. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:44 AM, J. Holmes said:

We use easy green fertilizer and root tabs from Co-op every 2 weeks. 

easy green weekly (or after each water change can work) and root tabs should be used every 3-6 months?  You might just have a very overly intensely "fertilized" substrate now.

On 4/9/2022 at 11:32 AM, J. Holmes said:

Ok … ugh! I thought I cycled it correctly. I left it without fish and just plants till everything was zero. So, I want to have Nitrates? What would a cycled tank parameters be? Sorry, so much to learn! 
 

Currently treating with Maracyn (just finished the treatment cycle).  Just ordered Maracyn 2 to try. 

I know you're going through a lot right now. I would take a step back and just.... try to not dump stuff in the tank.

Add carbon to the filter to get the water cleaner. Run that for 2 weeks minimum and see how the fish respond (activity, not illness)

At that point, dose some salt, remove the carbon, and give the fish some time to recover and regain some strength.

THEN decide what you need to treat or cull or move to another bin to treat separately and monitor.

As for feeding, stick to once every other day, then feed them once a day. Give them time to recover, salt will also help with some of them being backed up. This is the lowest stress method to help the fish help themselves.  Since they are generally all overfed. You might consider not feeding them for minimum one week.  If you are feeding only protein and heavy protein foods that might be the issue as well (they need something for digestion).

Edited April 9, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[J. Holmes]

On 4/9/2022 at 3:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You might just have a very overly intensely "fertilized" substrate now.

On 4/9/2022 at 2:32 PM, J. Holmes said:

Thanks… I very well may. I meant to say root tabs every 2 months. Oops 😬. 
 

I’ve moved all sick fish out except my constipated betta. My 20 gallon and quarantine tank are my only treated tanks. 
 

I looked up a lot on cycled tanks, so I thought I was good. No one shares what the numbers should be to know it’s cycled. What should I be looking for? I thought that having zero for everything (except PH) meant my water was good 🤷🏻‍♀️. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:16 PM, J. Holmes said:

I looked up a lot on cycled tanks, so I thought I was good. No one shares what the numbers should be to know it’s cycled. What should I be looking for? I thought that having zero for everything (except PH) meant my water was good 🤷🏻‍♀️. 

I'm fairly confident that a tank 5 months old is cycled.

Ammonia at 0 (or low), 0 nitrite, some nitrate would be what you're looking for. Ammonia above 0 just means too much bioload or food, which would cause the spike to be visible.

Safety measure or not. Don't change anything said above (carbon, salt, time, and letting the fish recover). All you need to add is that you would add in bacteria from a bottle for a week.

As long as you have a decent filter and it's been setup, I'm willing to say you're likely fine. Tanks don't seem overstocked, good water change schedule explains low values.

[nabokovfan87]

The only variable and issue here is constant treatment of anti-bacterial meds. That may have killed the cycle if that is indeed an issue.

Uncycled tank = ammonia builds

Cycled tank = nitrite and nitrate builds.

[J. Holmes]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:22 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'm fairly confident that a tank 5 months old is cycled.

Ammonia at 0 (or low), 0 nitrite, some nitrate would be what you're looking for. Ammonia above 0 just means too much bioload or food, which would cause the spike to be visible.

Ok… I thought I was on the right track. So, besides my overfeeding and algae, what’s causing them all to crash? Any idea? I just found another Endler doing this: 

sorry if this shows poor quality. 

On 4/9/2022 at 4:33 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The only variable and issue here is constant treatment of anti-bacterial meds. That may have killed the cycle if that is indeed an issue.

Uncycled tank = ammonia builds

Cycled tank = nitrite and nitrate builds.

I would agree; however, I’m seeing the issue in both tanks. Only one tank has been treated and only with 1 dose. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by J. Holmes

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I'm not sure that's a problem (your Endler). My male Endler, Drogon is a male display fool- he bends a little awkwardly when displaying to the other Endlers and Guppies in the tank. That's what it looks like to me. - They "shake" and open up their fins. Sometimes sidling up to the other fish they're "threatening". 

Edited April 9, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/9/2022 at 1:39 PM, J. Holmes said:

I would agree; however, I’m seeing the issue in both tanks. Only one tank has been treated and only with 1 dose. 

Just for clarification. What do you mean "seeing the issue"? Fish showing illness or do you specifically mean low (or near zero) values.

If you can. For each tank. Run a test of everything.

Size:

Temp:

Filter:

Stocking:

GH:

KH:

Ammonia:

Nitrite:

Nitrate:

Edited April 9, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[J. Holmes]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:54 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Just for clarification. What do you mean "seeing the issue"? Fish showing illness or do you specifically mean low (or near zero) values.

If you can. For each tank. Run a test of everything.

Size:

Temp:

Filter:

Stocking:

GH:

KH:

Ammonia:

Nitrite:

Nitrate:

Sorry, I’m seeing the same #s and cottonmouth in both. The bloat issues I’m sure was overfeeding.

I have the API freshwater test kit. I tested my water before dosing my 20 gallon a few days ago. Both tanks have a PH of 7.5. Ammonia, nitrite, and Nitrates are all 0. 30 gallon is at 78. 20 gallon is at 77.6. 
30 gallon: 2 medium Coop sponge filters. 1 male betta, 3 mystery snails, 4 Ottos, 7 cardinal tetra, 4 Endlers, 8 pearl danios. 1 hillstream loach. All live plants. 
20 gallon: 1 co-op sponge filter. 1 male betta, 3 mystery snails, 3 Ottos, 5 cardinal tetras, 3 Endlers, 1 hillstream loach. All live plants 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/9/2022 at 2:08 PM, J. Holmes said:

I have the API freshwater test kit. I tested my water before dosing my 20 gallon a few days ago. Both tanks have a PH of 7.5. Ammonia, nitrite, and Nitrates are all 0. 30 gallon is at 78. 20 gallon is at 77.6. 
30 gallon: 2 medium Coop sponge filters. 1 male betta, 3 mystery snails, 4 Ottos, 7 cardinal tetra, 4 Endlers, 8 pearl danios. 1 hillstream loach. All live plants. 
20 gallon: 1 co-op sponge filter. 1 male betta, 3 mystery snails, 3 Ottos, 5 cardinal tetras, 3 Endlers, 1 hillstream loach. All live plants 

What is KH and GH?

[J. Holmes]

I don’t have a way to test those. It isn’t in my test kit :(. Sorry! 

[nabokovfan87]

Ok so. If it was my tank:

1. Add carbon for 2 weeks

2. Add salt

3. Add some alder cones or something to lower PH.

 

See how the fish are doing at that point. Any fish with cottonmouth need to be in QT right away, observation. I was reading other threads on treatment and how to proceed with that. Definitely more to dive into as far as the best method for treating those fish in QT.

As for the tanks itself and how you handle cycling, keep an eye on parameters and report back with the new results each day. Once we have a trend and can see any changes we will have an idea of what is going on.

 

Hillstream loach, danios, otos, and tetras are all going to want a tank around 72-74 is what I'm seeing and how I've kept mine. High oxygenation for the hillstream loaches and otos as well.

Not saying this is what's going on, but something to look into while we watch the tanks for a little bit.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/neon-tetra-disease

Treatment of fish in QT: https://www.thesprucepets.com/columnaris-disease-in-aquarium-fish-1378480#toc-symptoms-of-columnaris-in-fish

Edited April 10, 2022 by nabokovfan87