Apisto breeding question

[JamieDC]

Hi all,

I’m fairly certain my apistogramma cacautiodes has just spawned. She’s hunkered down in her cave all day with the male somewhat nearby chasing all others away. This is a community tank with other larger fish in it. I’d like to try and keep the fry. Can I take the cave and put it in a breeder box with an air stone? If so, does mama need to come too? Any other tips would be appreciated. I’ve been down this road a number of times with plecos but not other fish. I’ve been hoping these little guys would breed and so I’d really like to give it a go and raise the fry! 
thanks all in advance for any help/advice.

jamie 

[Fish Folk]

I’d like to hear feedback from @tolstoy21 and other apisto breeders.

Generally speaking, I think best scenario is keeping momma with fry, and leaving everything undisturbed.

I tried removing newly hatched fry from mom recently with my Apistogramma Cacatouides… fry died. Maybe you could pull the cave / hut, but if you pull female with it, she may just gobble eggs up snd “reconstitute protein.” If you just pull the eggs, you might save some but the fry might struggle without parental care.

[tolstoy21]

My experience has been the following:

Leave the female with the fry in the tank they were spawned in.

Why? Because if you watch the female, you'll notice how much active care goes into her rearing her children--bringing them to food, or bringing food to them, herding them by sucking them into her mouth and spitting them back into the pack with their siblings, and possibly just keeping them clean from fungus and other things (my speculation). I believe she will also tend to the eggs to make sure they don't fungus over (felt like I watched this in a video with Kasia from Creative Pet Keeping). All in all, she'll do a much better job than us mere humans.

Remove the male.

It's hit or miss with the dads. I've seen first-time dad's gobble up their kids, and first time dads also leave their kids be. Recently, due to lack of tank space, I've left the males in, and in two cases with apisto cacs, the first-time dads devoured their kids. But one particular dad, who now has had a second chance at this, seems to have gotten the hang of it.

My apisto agassizzi dad just started devouring his kids (a snack that his other 'woman friend'  also joined in on!). I got most of the fry out in time and into a breeder box. However, 50% of the fry I'm playing mother to haven't made it. I'm lucky if I have a half dozen at the end of this. On the other hand, I have another pair (apisto beanschi)  in which the first-time dad is doing great!

As soon as I have another rack set up (working on it currently), I'll go back to always removing the male and letting the female raise her own children without my intervention. In the past, I've gotten huge spawns this way that have all made it to adult hood.

Oh and also, the female can get quite vicious with the dad, and you could lose him. On the other hand, with time and luck, and some lost spawns, mom and dad should be able to learn how to co-parent without resorting to spousal abuse or pedo-cannibalization. 

I've probably spawned apistos a dozen or so times, so I'm by no means a master, but this has been my take away observing their behavior as parents (and my success--or lack thereof-- as a surrogate) in the past few years.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

On 4/9/2022 at 12:22 AM, JamieDC said:

This is a community tank with other larger fish in it.

Sorry just seeing this line for the first time! Sometimes my brain doesn't see everything thats on the page. Why I have to re-read and edit all my posts a trillion times.

So ignore everything above!

Hmmmm . . . I'd say the fry will probably get eaten, and/or the female will get aggressive towards any other fish that come near her. So, your best bet is to try to pull the cave, and if you have something like a ten gallon, move her and the eggs/fry to it. If not, try a breeder box, and if it is big enough, maybe leave the female in. I have no experience here but I'm guessing she'll get stressed by the tight quarters, unless it's a big breeder box.

If you don't keep her in box with the fry, maybe bubble some meth blue in it for a day (that is, if the fry are un-hatched) and keep the water circulating mildly to help the eggs not fungus over. 

Sorry don't have more advice here, but I also keep a few apistos in a community tank, and everything born there just becomes someone else's lunch (except the cories, they seem to sneak in a few fry that grow out from time to time).

Since I have dedicated breeding setups for apistos, I don't normally try to raise them in a breeder box. So, in the end, that's two long posts now offering no good advice!!!!!  😉

Edited April 9, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Fish Folk]

Excellent feed back from @tolstoy21 -- Thanks!

If you want a cheap DIY flow-through in tank contraption I've found very successful for fry, here's a thread on how to build one for yourself...

Here's a look at my German Blue Ram fry, doing great in here...

And Here's a look at my Rainbow Shiner fry in another one built the same way...

 

 

 

[JamieDC]

This is so cool. Thank you @tolstoy21 and @Fish Folk! I was thinking about a make shift breeder box. I’m going to try dividers and see how that goes. In the interim I’ll see if I can put something better together for future spawns - fingers crossed. Thanks again for the advice! Much appreciated! 

[Lowells Fish Lab]

I've always figured it would be tough to keep eggs oxygenated after moving a cave to a smaller isolated place without the female so I haven't tried yet. At the wiggler stage though, while still adhesive, I've moved the cave without the female several times and raised fry artificially. If you tip the cave up so that the entrance points down, the fry just drift out over time. If you have the right foods, they aren't too hard to raise artificially. Definitely harder than parental care but it's certainly possible.

 

Found some pictures

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Lowells Fish Lab

[anewbie]

Personally long term i would setup a 5 gallon and next time she breeds; move her with her egg to the 5. Make sure it has a decent heater (not some cheap thing that will get stuck on and then stuck off) and a mature sponge filter. 

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You can keep the sponge filter mature when she is not in the 5 by adding some small dither like kubotai rasbora or pencil fishes.

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I suggest a 5 simply because it is small but if you have room a 10 or even a 20 long are good options.

[JamieDC]

I have a 5 gallon tank with CPDs. How long could I kept the mama and fry in there? 

[anewbie]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:05 PM, JamieDC said:

I have a 5 gallon tank with CPDs. How long could I kept the mama and fry in there? 

Depends how annoyed she gets at the cpd. One difference between cpd and kubotai is cpd are mid tank and kubotai are at the top. Not sure if the cpd will go after the frys but even if they don't they might stress her. You could remove the cpd while she is in there...

Edited April 9, 2022 by anewbie

[EPAquatics]

My 0.02 cents here, if you are going to ever pull an apisto cave with eggs in it, don't use an airstone to oxygenate the cave. A gentle water flow is better, since you don't risk having a bubble of air forming around the clutch, thus killing the eggs.

I have a fry tank setup very closely resembling Dean's system, and I direct the incoming water line for the tray into the mouth of the cave. It has worked well for me when pulling active caves. I then use a pipette to suck/relocate wrigglers that stray away from the group. I do that every hour or so when I'm around.

Parental care can be closely imitated, but never replicated. When in doubt, leave the fry with the female whenever possible. They do a pretty good job protecting fry from predators (most of the time). As @tolstoy21 stated, the males tend to be hit and miss for parental care.