Calling all who know about invasive freshwater mussels. Lets fight the Zebra and Quagga mussels.

[Minanora]

Alright Fam,

I'm a class 1 mussel inspector for two of my local lake ramps. I have it out for Zebra and Quagga mussels.

However, as a person who keeps fish. I have had experience with Betel Nut Palm extract, aka, "No Planaria".

COULD THIS KILL MUSSELS!?

I have no access to invasive mussels to test this. Does anyone? Could we help rid our smaller bodies of water and water infrastructure of mussels with this organic solution? ( redacted due to being posted while sleep deprived: Maybe it would work, but it could also kill a lot of other things and create a huge ammonia spike, just like in an aquarium). I have reached out to our local water quality team and the EPA and gotten no response.

We need to protect our waterways. Let's do our best to fight the spread of zebra and quagga mussels.

This is a really big deal. Someone should pin this. I'm not being silly. If we can find a way to rid bodies of water of these mussels, without killing fish and native species; we need to act. (redacted because I was sleepy and that's a great idea, but it would not work without harming a lot of other things in the lake)

🤦🏻‍♀️Now that it's morning time; I want to update this. IF it did kill mussels: We could use the extract on boats and other items and equipment that hold water and create an environment that could host hitchhikers.

These mussels are a HUGE deal and everyone needs to be educated. If you have a boat, you're responsible for keeping invasive mussels out of our lakes and waterways. If you're interested in learning about the ways to stop the spread of invasive mussels, the following links are great resources.

https://fws.gov/story/clean-drain-dry

https://stopaquatichitchhikers.org/

Edited March 25, 2022 by Minanora
I was up too late.

[Minanora]

I should give some context to those who are not mussel wise. If you have a boat or even a paddle board or other floatable that goes to a lake. You're responsible for protecting our water from invasive mussels.

You know how you get random snails on plants? Then they blow up? Well, mussels are like that but millions of dollars more expensive. Sometimes billions. These mussels can live outside of water like snail eggs, and hitchhike from one body of water to another. They can destroy recreation and municipal water supplies. They clog up pipes, sink docks, ruin propellers, motors, you name it. They can live in your life jackets, floaties, empty bottles/cans. For 30+ days.

If you have been to a lake or river that has quagga or zebra mussels. Do your part. Clean, drained, and dry. Before you go to any other body of water with those toys. Ballast included. Don't surf or wakeboard without knowing your impact. You could infect a whole lake with one boat.

 

Do your research. "Don't move a mussel". Look it up. Be mussel aware.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Minanora

[lefty o]

this has been a thing around here for a lot of years. boats/people can either through being lazy, or careless move lots of invasive things. whether it is zebra mussels, milfoil, etc. once a body of water is infested, it is virtually impossible to rid it of invasives.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

Ecologist here.  While I applaud your zeal for protecting the environment, @Minanora, the mass use of something known to broadly kill large groups of organisms being released into habitats would likely create loads of collateral damage.  Even if it was effective in poisoning the invasive mussels, it would take out all the flatworms, and probably more we don't even know about.  This would potentially be more destructive than the mussels themselves.  Plus, if it hit the invasives, it would likely take out the often highly endangered (and behaviorally really cool!) native mussels, too.  This would be my concern.  A bit like burning your house down to get rid of termites.  It could work, but at what cost?  Agencies would have to do massive amounts of testing to check out the impacts, and even with the already known impacts, it would probably garner an immediate "no" from them. 

@lefty o is correct that invasives are super hard to get rid of.  Most ecologists even, at this point, are shifting over to the idea that the approach should focus on reducing introductions (those are mostly hitchhikers as a byproduct of global trade, so...  tricky), aggressive suppression if caught early, mitigation of impacts if established, and some acceptance of the changes once the species are entrenched.  For zebra mussels, slowing their spread is really all we have left.  And the truth is they haven't been as bad for the native habitats as we'd originally feared.  Which is good news! 

[Minanora]

@OnlyGenusCaps I completely agree with you. I was not suggesting that we use it to rid entire lakes of mussels. (EDIT: *PFFFF* Yes I did) It could make it possible to sterilize boats, ballast tanks, live wells, etc. It would be pretty amazing to be able to stop hitchhikers with an organic compound. It could also be used inside barges, fresh water intakes for motors that are cooled with lake water and not rust or corrode equipment. It could possibly shorten quarantine for boats that have been on infected bodies of water. Even floaties, lifejackets, cozies, towels, carpets etc could be soaked with it and not get damaged.

The best way to manage them is by preventing them from moving, of course. But being able to 100% be sure your vessel and equipment is mussel free would be great to help encourage people to prevent hitchhikers. Ballast tanks being a likely place for them to hide. With lake Havasu, lake Pleasant, and lake Mead all being infected and destination watersport lakes, it would be great to prevent them from spreading into lake Powell. With the popularity of wakesurfing and wakeboarding fueling boats to have more and more ballast it is difficult to get everything dry.

It could help people be less fearful of visiting these infected lakes as well.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Minanora
I did say those things, didn't I!? *facepalm*

[Minanora]

Good lord my original post is a mess. I did talk about ridding waterways of mussels. Sheesus. This is why I should sleep at midnight instead of posting ridiculous ideas. 🤣

[lefty o]

On 3/25/2022 at 10:43 AM, Minanora said:

Good lord my original post is a mess. I did talk about ridding waterways of mussels. Sheesus. This is why I should sleep at midnight instead of posting ridiculous ideas. 🤣

sleepless rantings can be entertaining!🤪

[Minanora]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:53 AM, lefty o said:

sleepless rantings can be entertaining!🤪

Indeed. I did wake up and read most of my post and totally didn't read the part where I tried to break the environment with mass die-off. I honestly thought, "there's no way I would say that, that's silly and I know better." Apparently not when it's midnight and I've had a total of 16ish hours of sleep over the week.

I added 6 hours of, mostly uninterrupted, sleep this morning so I feel okay. Hopefully I can get 8 hours soon. My little has been making it impossible to get a full nights sleep.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:54 AM, Minanora said:

I was not suggesting that we use it to rid entire lakes of mussels. It could make it possible to sterilize boats, ballast tanks, live wells, etc. It would be pretty amazing to be able to stop hitchhikers with an organic compound. It could also be used inside barges, fresh water intakes for motors that are cooled with lake water and not rust or corrode equipment. It could possibly shorten quarantine for boats that have been on infected bodies of water. Even floaties, lifejackets, cozies, towels, carpets etc could be soaked with it and not get damaged.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this in more detail to me!  I think I better understand now.  You certainly raise a number of interesting questions!  There is a lot to think about there with surface killing, or ballast killing.  Residue.  Time of contact vs. efficacy of kill.  Does it need to be chemically neutralized after.  And then there is the issue of compliance (impinging upon convenience in America can be dramatized as "tyranny" - silly, but it happens all the time!). 

Given the number of unknowns inherent with your suggestion, may I offer an unsolicited suggestion?  You might try contacting a lab that researches invasive mussels rather than an agency.  They might either have insights into the answers to your questions (which I do not even pretend to have), or be interested in exploring them.  Once those questions become known, then agencies would be more likely to be responsive, I suspect.  Just a thought.  If you want to try that route, and are having trouble identifying a lab, DM me and I'd be happy to try to help in your search. 

[Minanora]

On 3/25/2022 at 9:12 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

Thank you for taking the time to explain this in more detail to me!  I think I better understand now.  You certainly raise a number of interesting questions!  There is a lot to think about there with surface killing, or ballast killing.  Residue.  Time of contact vs. efficacy of kill.  Does it need to be chemically neutralized after.  And then there is the issue of compliance (impinging upon convenience in America can be dramatized as "tyranny" - silly, but it happens all the time!). 

Given the number of unknowns inherent with your suggestion, may I offer an unsolicited suggestion?  You might try contacting a lab that researches invasive mussels rather than an agency.  They might either have insights into the answers to your questions (which I do not even pretend to have), or be interested in exploring them.  Once those questions become known, then agencies would be more likely to be responsive, I suspect.  Just a thought.  If you want to try that route, and are having trouble identifying a lab, DM me and I'd be happy to try to help in your search. 

I'm sorry I did misspeak though, I DID suggest using it in lakes. I didn't read my own content thoroughly... Embarrassing. I was running on fumes last night. I should have been asleep but I was waiting for my small human to vomit, cry, need water, or otherwise wake me up, again.

I think you have a good idea there for reaching out to a lab. I had not thought of this! Hmm, I have some ideas of where to start!

[BeeD]

Yea you're not wrong, it feels like a do or die scenario right now. In Wisconsin the native mussels and I believe at least one of the native crawfish are in serious trouble.

[Biotope Biologist]

Unfortunately the U.S tried this many times in the 50’s through 70’s when ecology was just a budding branch of biology. The cases of ‘using a bigger hammer’ never worked out and in fact had the opposite of intended effect because usually these substances kill native populations too. The problem with chemical approaches, yes even organic chemicals, is they are generally not species specific. Invader species are more likely to be able to resettle after destabilization. 
 

I will give an example thanks to the wonderful work of Walter Tschinkel. In the 50’s boats carrying agricultural goods from Argentina landed in the southern pandhandle with an unintended guest, the Argentine Fire Ant. Initially this pest was harmless but it was annoying to suburbanites who wanted to walk through the grass in their lawn barefoot. These fire ants are far more aggressive towards their territory than the natives who prefer shrubland and exposed pine forests. So naturally the USDA was contacted and slippery slope later we used about 10 different insecticides (some even airdropped from planes) to eradicate these ankle biters. We stopped after farmers started losing pets and livestock. But the damage was irreversible. We basically eradicated the native fire ant population, who were staving off the aliens just fine before the chemical fallout. We eradicated any and all aquatic insects and arthropods, even caused acute stress to native fish populations. The fallout we still see to this day. And worse yet the fire ants are more entrenched into this ecosystem then ever before making it all the way up to the permafrost line. 
 

 

I realize that you have already errata’d this but I can’t miss an opportunity to talk about fire ants and the politics around it, much to my colleagues dismay. Anyway I generally am opposed to any and all chemical warfare on invasives and am pro ecology restoration and fortification so that native populations can resist foreign invaders. Your plight isn’t new and I’m certainly right there with you, but until we reach the technology of species specific immune and digestive inhibitors, I think we should steer far far away from chemicals. I do believe there are labs working on this technology as well as chemicals that can make persistent organic pollutants inert while they chemically decay. This will certainly be tech that wins nobel prizes as it will save many populations on our western coasts from the brink including the resident orcas. But I shall digress before I publish a book.

[JettsPapa]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:05 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

Unfortunately the U.S tried this many times in the 50’s through 70’s when ecology was just a budding branch of biology. The cases of ‘using a bigger hammer’ never worked out and in fact had the opposite of intended effect because usually these substances kill native populations too. The problem with chemical approaches, yes even organic chemicals, is they are generally not species specific. Invader species are more likely to be able to resettle after destabilization. 
 

I will give an example thanks to the wonderful work of Walter Tschinkel. In the 50’s boats carrying agricultural goods from Argentina landed in the southern pandhandle with an unintended guest, the Argentine Fire Ant. Initially this pest was harmless but it was annoying to suburbanites who wanted to walk through the grass in their lawn barefoot. These fire ants are far more aggressive towards their territory than the natives who prefer shrubland and exposed pine forests. So naturally the USDA was contacted and slippery slope later we used about 10 different insecticides (some even airdropped from planes) to eradicate these ankle biters. We stopped after farmers started losing pets and livestock. But the damage was irreversible. We basically eradicated the native fire ant population, who were staving off the aliens just fine before the chemical fallout. We eradicated any and all aquatic insects and arthropods, even caused acute stress to native fish populations. The fallout we still see to this day. And worse yet the fire ants are more entrenched into this ecosystem then ever before making it all the way up to the permafrost line. 
 

 

I realize that you have already errata’d this but I can’t miss an opportunity to talk about fire ants and the politics around it, much to my colleagues dismay. Anyway I generally am opposed to any and all chemical warfare on invasives and am pro ecology restoration and fortification so that native populations can resist foreign invaders. Your plight isn’t new and I’m certainly right there with you, but until we reach the technology of species specific immune and digestive inhibitors, I think we should steer far far away from chemicals. I do believe there are labs working on this technology as well as chemicals that can make persistent organic pollutants inert while they chemically decay. This will certainly be tech that wins nobel prizes as it will save many populations on our western coasts from the brink including the resident orcas. But I shall digress before I publish a book.

I've lived my entire life in rural southeast Texas, and pretty much grew up in a hayfield, so you might say I have some familiarity with fire ants.  I will wholeheartedly agree that the native ants are less prevalent than they were when I was a boy (I'm 60 now).

However, while I don't have any studies to back this up other than my own observation, I'm convinced the fire ants aren't as bad now as they were 30 or 40 years ago.  I believe there have been some efforts to introduce some of their native predators, but I'm not sure about that.  If so it could account for the decline I've observed.

[Biotope Biologist]

On 3/25/2022 at 11:14 AM, JettsPapa said:

I've lived my entire life in rural southeast Texas, and pretty much grew up in a hayfield, so you might say I have some familiarity with fire ants.  I will wholeheartedly agree that the native ants are less prevalent than they were when I was a boy (I'm 60 now).

However, while I don't have any studies to back this up other than my own observation, I'm convinced the fire ants aren't as bad now as they were 30 or 40 years ago.  I believe there have been some efforts to introduce some of their native predators, but I'm not sure about that.  If so it could account for the decline I've observed.

I do want to get away from doom and gloom for a second, in my opinion, scientists are maybe too much so these days. Since we have stopped this warfare things have bounced back incredibly fast it seems (at least as of 2013). In areas such as yours the native populations have come back and the insecticides we used have reached at least 1 half-life. As long as we protect rural areas and don’t let them fall to suburbanization I think native populations have a fighting chance even if we just let them do what they want. 😊

[modified lung]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:43 AM, Minanora said:

Good lord my original post is a mess. I did talk about ridding waterways of mussels. Sheesus. This is why I should sleep at midnight instead of posting ridiculous ideas. 🤣

Sleep is for the weak. Functioning is optional.

On 3/25/2022 at 11:27 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

I do want to get away from doom and gloom for a second, in my opinion, scientists are maybe too much so these days. Since we have stopped this warfare things have bounced back incredibly fast it seems (at least as of 2013). In areas such as yours the native populations have come back and the insecticides we used have reached at least 1 half-life. As long as we protect rural areas and don’t let them fall to suburbanization I think native populations have a fighting chance even if we just let them do what they want. 😊

Yep, that seems to be the case at least most of the time. There could always be exceptions but old habits die hard. Now if you can just convince conservation biologists to stop raising threatened/endangered fish in these crazy unnatural, engineered systems, we could be golden. Lol that's something that drives me nuts.