Fertilizer with very hard water

[zlk718]

I have very hard water (gh around 15), so I'm wondering if I should I be using an all in 1 fertilizer like easy green as directed anyway? A lesser amount? None at all? I don't really understand the difference between macros and micros, am I likely to be missing one or the other in my water and thus maybe should use a more specific fertilizer rather than an all in 1? Thanks.

[Native Keeper]

I also have hard water, have been using the recommended amount and most of my plants do fine.

[Jennifer V]

On 2/4/2022 at 10:01 AM, Native Keeper said:

I also have hard water, have been using the recommended amount and most of my plants do fine.

Same! But @zlk718@Torrey has some great insight about macros and micros. 

[Torrey]

On 2/4/2022 at 11:44 PM, Jennifer V said:

Same! But @zlk718@Torrey has some great insight about macros and micros. 

If someone wants lean dosing info, or is going to use CO2, Mmiller is the mastermind for high tech tanks.

My approach to plants has been inspired by Dr Diana Walstad, and best modeled by Guppysnail: put as many different plants in the tank as possible, and see what grows best.

To help identify deficiencies, I use a cheat sheet that I can't remember if I got it from Irene (GirlTalksFish) or from a friend in Australia. 🤷‍♂️

 

The key thing to successful plant propagation is to remember that plants will grow as fast as their most limited source allows. 

They need light, carbon (CO2), water (H2O), nutrients and minerals. Macros like nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite and nitrates) will severely limit growth when they are insufficient, just like not enough light will show up pretty quickly. 

Micros like boron, manganese, and zinc or copper won't be blatantly obvious, and a deficiency will take longer to be demonstrated by the plant. 

Cory has a couple of videos on water quality and hardness being variable in different districts. The water out of my tap (same tap) will vary according to which water reservoir the city pulls on.

All of the water in this state is hard. Like, liquid rock hard. The mineral composition is widely variable. East of the mountains, there's so much calcium neither humans nor livestock can drink it, because the dissolved calcium causes kidney stones. Northwest area is contaminated with uranium. South of here, lime and radon.

So TDS is a small piece of the puzzle. The larger piece is learning how to read plants.

[Torrey]

FWIW: my excessively hard water helps most plants grow, especially calcium hogs like hornwort and water hyacinth. 

My 4' tank is overstocked with endlers.

My 10 gallon has almost as many endlers....

I have to dose the 4' with Easy Green more than 2x a week, if I want detectable nitrates. Some people get higher nitrates... I might have too much plant growth...🤔

Nah, no such thing 😁

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:02 AM, Torrey said:

The larger piece is learning how to read plants.

Manganese.  A lot of people don't even know what that is.

[Torrey]

On 2/5/2022 at 8:14 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

Manganese.  A lot of people don't even know what that is.

I attended a class discussing how farming techniques strip the soil of nutrients and manganese was discussed in length.

So was copper.

All the aquatic life we are told will die if exposed to copper **need** copper, but in appropriate amounts... which used to happen naturally but now we have tipped the balance in too many water systems.....

Learning how freshwater shrimp can die from too much copper, and also die from not enough... was a surprise 😳

[OnlyGenusCaps]

While that's all right and great information, @Torrey.  I must admit, I was not being intellectual at all.  I was just referencing the movie "Caddyshack".  It was my version of wit. 

[Torrey]

On 2/5/2022 at 6:34 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

While that's all right and great information, @Torrey.  I must admit, I was not being intellectual at all.  I was just referencing the movie "Caddyshack".  It was my version of wit. 

I have to admit.... I've never seen Caddyshack 😅

The humor *literally* flew over my head🤦‍♂️

<insert missed the point meme, here, for my totally literal autistic moment 😅🤣🤣>

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:45 PM, Torrey said:

humor

Well, I mean when referring to jokes I make "humor" might be a strong word anyhow.  🥸

[Torrey]

On 2/6/2022 at 5:48 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

Well, I mean when referring to jokes I make "humor" might be a strong word anyhow.  🥸

I think your humor is perfect. 

And at least with my complete lack of cinematography knowledge post 70's, you can count on me to assist in deadpan delivery. 😅🤣

[Mmiller2001]

You can definitely have a nice planted tank even with a higher GH. A good majority of plants do prefer soft water (lower GH) and do enjoy lower pH's. Of course there are exceptions, but those plants can usually handle the conditions in our tanks given enough time. Time and stability seem to be able to make many impossibilities possible.

Macro nutrients (NPK) should have no problem being added to any hardness. Maybe there's some threshold, but I doubt we would run into any problems with our aquariums. Maybe someone smarter than I might know of a problem, but I just haven't read where a problem might exist.

Micro's are a different story. Often, hardness gets confused. There's dGH (water hardness) and dKH (carbonate hardness) and many assume or mistake dKH as water hardness. dKH is just a measure of carbonates and bicarbonates (Hydroxides) in the water that buffer our aquariums. In my dumb TL/DR explanation, "if dKH increases then pH increases. If dKH decreases then pH decreases." This is also said to be the alkalinity of water. 

Back to Micro's. Fe (Iron) is one the important micro's and it must be chelated as Fe just doesn't dissolve in our water. There are several chelates but 3 are often seen in our hobby. EDTA, DPTA and Ferrous Gluconate are the main chelates you will see. If I remember correctly, Easy Green is EDTA chelated. Each of these chelates react at certain pH levels. I will post a chart explaining this towards the bottom. But what we want to know is the pH of our water. If you are using Easy Green, and have a higher pH, the Fe becomes unavailable to your plants. In return, this would cause a deficiency even with a large addition of fertilizer. You'll want to pick a fertilizer chelated for your tank environment. Using Ferrous Gluconate can be used as it's is available at almost any pH.

One last thing to consider. dGH is made up of Calcium and Magnesium. Some fertilizers include these elements, so be mindful. Both Ca and MG can be overdosed and cause problems.

If you do have a high pH, I would look for a NPK source, separate Fe, Ferrous Gluconate and a Micro Mix.

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Mmiller2001
Added Graph

[zlk718]

I switched to EG from Flourish recently because I noticed Flourish has Calcium in it and I'm pretty sure my tap water is full of calcium already and I dont know whether too much of it is a bad thing but you're saying it is. EG does contain magnesium though, how do I know whether my water contains plenty of magnesium already? I assume it does if thats commonly in hard water so maybe I'm doing more harm than good by adding an all in 1 that contains magnesium.

[zlk718]

If I wanted to avoid all this guesswork and go with RODI water what products do I need to remineralize it? Or maybe I should use tap + a macros only fertilizer.

Edited February 7, 2022 by zlk718

[Mmiller2001]

On 2/7/2022 at 12:29 PM, zlk718 said:

I switched to EG from Flourish recently because I noticed Flourish has Calcium in it and I'm pretty sure my tap water is full of calcium already and I dont know whether too much of it is a bad thing but you're saying it is. EG does contain magnesium though, how do I know whether my water contains plenty of magnesium already? I assume it does if thats commonly in hard water so maybe I'm doing more harm than good by adding an all in 1 that contains magnesium.

It's not necessarily bad, just something you want to account for as it could be bad. 

I would check your local water report. They usually list Ca and Mg ppm.

On 2/7/2022 at 12:40 PM, zlk718 said:

If I wanted to avoid all this guesswork and go with RODI water what products do I need to remineralize it? Or maybe I should use tap + a macros only fertilizer.

You would buy MgSO4 and CaSo4. About 6 dollars total. That's all you need to mineralize for GH.