Tell me about your Guppy and/or Endler Hierarchy!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

So. In my Fluval Flex I had 5 Embers and 5 (male) Endlers. This past week I added 2 more Embers (the 5 didn't like their number) and 4 male Guppies. I thought the tank was busy when the 5 Endlers were in there. The Guppies were already very active in QT, the Endlers have always been active as well. Now this tank is just ridiculous. 

What I've observed and maybe it's just because I'm keeping smaller numbers and I can tell everyone apart is that there is CLEARLY a leader in the Endler group (whose name is Drogon). He's the most active with his posturing- before I added the new Guppies- Drogon and another named Phoenix were pretty much always together and CONSTANTLY chasing each other. The other 3, Torchlight, Flare and NEL (interestingly to me the least colorful of the 5 though Torchlight looks similar to Phoenix) seem to only participate part time with the other 2 and generally hang out together. When I put the Guppies in Drogon immediately went into posturing with them and chasing individuals around- since they look similar to each other thankfully it seemed the behavior was distributed among the 4 and not with just one in particular. I haven't sussed out yet who might be the leader of the Guppies- if there is one. 

Anyone else have a story to tell about this sort of behavior with either of these types of fish? This I expect is totally normal. 

While I was watching them I was wondering what a group of Guppies or Endlers were called, and it doesn't appear to be an "official name" in my searches. Of course then I started thinking about it: Fury was my first thought because they are a fury of color and posturing and activity. Maybe even a Flourish! 

[GameCzar]

My males are constantly doing a dance trying to show who's the alpha, but when it comes to the ladies they hunt in groups!  I have a few that are obvious runts, but there's a lot of them that think they're the boss.    I can't speak to Endlers, even though I suspect my last batch of mutts has a couple of boys with endler genes. 

Trying to keep an all male tank was tough because they did nip at each others fins from time to time. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by GameCzar

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@GameCzar there is a lot ouf tousling between them that's for sure- but I cannot justify breeding guppies so fraternity it is in my tanks. I'm hoping the number of fish I've chosen keeps the nipping if any to a minimum as others act as dithers- I thought mixing Endlers and Guppies could also keep that to a minimum. While I've seen the Alpha Endler Drogon kinda pick at the bodies of the other fish it doesn't seem to be causing any physical harm at all so far. 🤞

[GameCzar]

It wasn't hurting them, I think you'll do fine.  

[John Zoidberg]

I didn't realize when i got Endlers (i think some are hybrids) how much chasing and nipping they would do with one another. They leave my Neon's alone. I was actually hoping my Neon's would help decrease the aggression but that was not the case. I have two that looks more Guppy than Endler (one's my fav and i named him Maze) and he gets picked on by all the others constantly. This week he's been swimming a lot slower and he's been in the corner just trying to fend everyone off. When he defends himself the others sometime swim away or the play hurt and then when he turns his back the start all over again. I'm worried about my guy not sure if hes hurt or sick or its just nature. I have 8 Endlers in total. Any suggestions?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Is there another tank you can move Maze and maybe another peaceful Endler or 2? @John Zoidberg

[John Zoidberg]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:40 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Is there another tank you can move Maze and maybe another peaceful Endler or 2? @John Zoidberg

I have a 5 gallon i use as my quarantine tank i can move him to. I have not noticed any endlers that are nice to him. they all seem to take pokes at him. Are you thinking of giving him a break or you think a permanent move is required?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I think it could go either way @John Zoidberg, I think you will know. I think if he was my favorite and I were in your shoes that's what I'd do.

Edited January 28, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[John Zoidberg]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:30 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I think it could go either way @John Zoidberg, I think you will know. I think if he was my favorite and I were in your shoes that's what I'd do.

Do you think more Endlers would help? My tank has good filtration and i dont have to do water changes often. I think the longest I went was 3 weeks. So i think i could add 3 or 4 more and not be over stocked. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I think it's a possibility. I have 4 guppies and 5 endlers in a 7 gallon tank with double filtration (that's along with a Hillstream a Nerite and 7 Ember tetras. The 9 of them harass each other CONSTANTLY but I think because there are so many of them they change who they're harassing a lot. So, you could get a few more, put them in your QT if you think your favorite needs a break, if you have one (if you don't get one) use a small breeder box floating in your main tank that will help him recover. 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I think in general livebearer aggression is underrated- they can really push each other into significant levels of stress to the point of death. I’ve seen it more frequently then I’d ever imagined. It’s not Mbuna or CA cichlids level but it can be scary. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Beardedbillygoat1975 In the short time I've been keeping live bearers I'd have to agree with you. I am a little bit concerned about too much harassment. So daily I try and sit and watch the tank for at least a minute or two and see especially if anyone is singled out in particular. I realize even without that (so far) all that chasing and male posturing would be similar to a Betta having 24/7 access to a mirror or in a divided tank with a "hated enemy". It can't do much to extend their lifespans. 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

It’s disturbing that they sell pairs of guppies or Endlers as a pair is bound to go badly. I always strive for a ratio of 1 m 3-4 f in a breeding setup. Loads of cover hardscape and plants helps but you need other fish to act as dithers and distraction. 

[Guppysnail]

I go 1/4 ratio. In smaller numbers when I only had 1m/2f. The female giving birth would be bothered by the boy and the other girl would swoop in to distract the boy and get him to chase her to the other side of the tank. As long as I keep 3 boys to 12 girls any form of hierarchy or bickering disappears and everyone just swims about happy. 2 boys no matter how many girls ends in dominance issues for me. It is most harmonious when I have 3-5 boys with 13-18 girls. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I think at least so far my set up is ok but I'm keeping an eye on it for sure @Beardedbillygoat1975. I don't want to breed so I'm just trying to find an active balance.. 4 Guppies and 5 Endlers, 7 Embers, plants, and a few cave statues. They've been in there since the 20th (the 4 guppies). Added them because 2 of the Endlers were non stop. No fin damage or outright agression witnessed so far. They chase a lot, but I've observed them getting distracted and move to another tankmate and then another and some take a break from the fray and do their own thing and then the cycle continues. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX