New Fish for the Week 11/29-12/5 - Breeding Project Challenge

[Fish Folk]

I love it (and loath it) when Robert posts the "New Fish of the Week" . . . because there's so often species on the list each week that I'd love to buy up and start a breeding project with.

This week, the species that caught my eye is going to be an eye-roller for some aquarists: BLUE PARADISE GOURAMI.

These fish really established early in the aquatic hobby. Reasonably adaptable to varied water chemistry, they're fine as a cool water Gourami (Anabantid).

Temperamentally, they're sometimes tricky to house in a community tank because of their aggressive nature. Males, like Bettas, will often fight aggressively. They will sometimes eat smaller fish.

Having laid out some negatives, they're a beautiful fish in their own right. They breed like Bettas and Gouramis by the male building a bubble nest for the female. They'll do well in a short, long, heavily planted tank -- 20-gal. long or larger preferred with just sponge filtration. If room temperature is steady, a heater is probably unnecessary. 

I'd love to see photos of the color form the Co-Op has in. Maybe @Robert will attach a photo or two. There really are a load of color morphs available.

Here's a few show-stopper photos of males . . .

If the Co-Op has both males and females for sale, I'd try to buy the best male along with three females, put them together in a well-planted 20 gal. long with a mixture of plants -- especially  some floating plants. They'll appreciate a protein-rich diet, including some live foods.

Along with feeding live foods -- live brine shrimp, black worms, etc -- adding a floating catappa leaf, and lowering the tank to ca. 7-inches of water should stimulate spawning behavior.

Of course, most people breed them just like they do bettas -- pulling a male out into a small space, providing cover to build a bubble nest, introducing a female, and then removing them once there's unhealthy aggression or once eggs have hatched and free-swimming fry are liable to being eaten.

For a generous breeding environment...

For a common, rough-and-ready breeding plan...

I'd just recommend holding out to find the right color forms of Paradise fish that really excite you. Hope this inspires someone!

Edited December 2, 2021 by Fish Folk

[Robert]

This is a cool post. I do hope my fish selection weekly inspires people to breed fish and take up new challenges. I'll try to get some good pictures of our current lot this week. We have currently blue and albino paradise fish in shop right now. Usually when I order them we get both males and females. I recall reading somewhere (I'll need to find this) that their one of the first tropical fish to be kept. Dating back to the 1700's and they would ship them on wet cotton. Super underated fish that can be an outstanding show piece in the right setup.

[Gator]

@Robert; Believe it or not, the first fish to be bred in a home aquarium is the Convict cichlid, according to Herbert Axelrod. You're probably right about Paradise fish being one of the first fish to be kept, but here's the problem, Paradise fish are very ill tempered and should not be kept in a community tank.  Any deviation from the original coloring is the product of hybridization and are therefore sterile, also according to Herbert Axelrod. They would look great in a species only tank with a lot of plants.

[Fish Folk]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:01 AM, Gator said:

@Robert; Believe it or not, the first fish to be bred in a home aquarium is the Convict cichlid, according to Herbert Axelrod. You're probably right about Paradise fish being one of the first fish to be kept, but here's the problem, Paradise fish are very ill tempered and should not be kept in a community tank.  Any deviation from the original coloring is the product of hybridization and are therefore sterile, also according to Herbert Axelrod. They would look great in a species only tank with a lot of plants.

I’d assume the accuracy of all the reports concerning their suitability with tank mates. As for colors / hybridization / sterility, I think a clear case-by-case evaluation needs to be made. There are a small variety of Macropodus subspecies, and if these, a few have been genetically engineered. However, determination of hybridization & sterility is probably hard to arrive at vs. selective breeding. 

[Gator]

@Fish Folk; I believe Herbert Axelrod has already made the evaluation. My information comes from his book "Exotic Tropical Fishes" that I've had since 1984, it's my go-to book on all matters concerning aquariums, fish, fish breeding, plants, and fish foods such as starting a culture of any type of fry foods including culturing baby Brine shrimp into adulthood.

Accepting a challenge is something I really like, accepting a challenge to breed fish that can't be bred is a waste of time and money. I can't, in good conscience, accept your challenge.

Sincerely

Gator

[Fish Folk]

@Robert I’d love to see a couple snaps of your current Paradise Fish for sale. @Gator deserves a fair chance to evaluate whether they qualify as Axelrod geldings. 

[Gator]

@Fish Folk; @Robert Has posted several photos of some very beautiful Paradise fish hybrids, what would convince me that they're not sterile is to see for myself the pairing of the fish and the successful hatching of the eggs. If you look closely at the photos, a couple of them look as if they have been crossed with Bettas', if Livebearers an interbreed, why not Anabantids?

[Fish Folk]

Where have these photos been posted? Can you link to or screenshot them? I am not _yet_ persuaded that dramatic color variance brought by selective breeding is impossible in Macropodus opercularis. Yes, hybrids are problematic — and even if fertile, should not be encouraged in the hobby. But if @Robert will upload a few photos of this week’s Paradise fish in question, we may be able to fairly easily address whether they’re likely M. opercularis, or another subspecies — e.g. M. ocellatus, M. spechti, etc.

Referring to the book you mentioned, "Exotic Tropical Fishes," it seems to have had an earlier published life in 1969 in French under the title "Poissons Exotiques d'Aquarium."  

The French translation, on pg. 657 from beneath the plate of the hybrid M. opercularis crossed with M. concolor (above) translates roughly into English as follows:

"This magnificent fish of paradise is the result of a cross between Macropodus opercularis and Macropodus concolor, the resulting hybrid being more like the last species. Note the successful development of the upper and lower caudal filaments and the narrow anal filament elongation. Hybrids between species of fish are not uncommon in other genera, but this is not always an improvement in the qualities of one of the parents. Usually, even when you cross two magnificent fish, the resulting hybrid is pale when compared to the parents; moreover, it is often sterile and fragile. However, the hybrid pictured above has been shown to be as resilient as its parents."

I think it is important to note here that this fish, though a known hybrid, was not decidedly identified as infertile.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Fish Folk

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Herbert Axelrod was not the aquarist he purported to be. Rosario Lacorte on the Aquarist Podcast has made clear on many occasions "Herbie" stole more than he actually discovered and eventually was discredited in formal ichthyology circles. Hindsight being 20/20 he did a lot for the hobby but on the backs of other hardworking aquarists. And he was a tax fraud that fled. So theres that but not fish related. I remember reading TFH as a kid and being in awe of him and Jack Watley. Sorry to break in to the excellent discussion regarding Paradise Fish and hybridization.  

I think this is a fair assessment: Obituary: Dr. Herbert R. Axelrod - Practical Fishkeeping

[Robert]

@Fish FolkPictures are of an Albino Paradise and Blue Paradise. We do get a Red Flame Paradise but none in stock at this time. That looks like the very bottom one of the good looking males in your first post. We find that they do well with most rainbows, danios, loaches, and certain barbs and or cyprinids for tank mates. Great setup I have done in shop was dojo loaches, giant danios, and paradise fish. Great trio of cool water fish.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Robert

[Fish Folk]

On 12/3/2021 at 9:34 PM, Robert said:

@Fish FolkPictures are of an Albino Paradise and Blue Paradise. We do get a Red Flame Paradise but none in stock at this time. That looks like the very bottom one of the good looking males in your first post. We find that they do well with most rainbows, danios, loaches, and certain barbs and or cyprinids for tank mates. Great setup I have done in shop was dojo loaches, giant danios, and paradise fish. Great trio of cool water fish.

Thanks! Love it. These guys can color up really nicely with a few months TLC. Nice tips too on combos! I've heard they're a challenge mostly with con-specific species. Dojos an Danios are different enough to make it work. I suspect that if they're grouped heavy, they'll disperse aggression too -- though that's hardly conducive to breeding. I've been seeing that albino strain in all of my LFS here in Maryland lately (past 3 months). 

[Gator]

@Beardedbillygoat1975 ; I'm familiar with the debates and accusations between William T. Innes and Axelrod, but I also have "Exotic Aquarium Fishes, The Innes Book." The debate between the two was that Innes accused Axelrod of plagiarism, but learned his allegation was not true.   

[rjv23]

@Fish Folk I don't frequent here because the quality of the info is usually not that accurate.  I do breed paradise fish, by the thousands and it really frustrates me to find attitudes prescribing a genus of fish is like this or that and stances against hybridizing. Actually, paradise fish are fine in community tanks if it is big enough and if they are not breeding. They can be kept in groups without much problem, just provide some cover for individual territories. And breeding pairs can be left together continually. Maybe I am wrong and you have yrs of experience with Macropodus, but seems not. Nature has been hybridizing for eons. If they are in a tub and they breed, it was meant to be. I would suggest stop passing book knowledge on to others. Try practical knowledge and see if that has the same result before preaching gospel. always the same result from these forums, you really need experienced moderators.

[Fish Folk]

On 12/24/2021 at 5:36 AM, rjv23 said:

@Fish Folk I don't frequent here because the quality of the info is usually not that accurate.  I do breed paradise fish, by the thousands and it really frustrates me to find attitudes prescribing a genus of fish is like this or that and stances against hybridizing. Actually, paradise fish are fine in community tanks if it is big enough and if they are not breeding. They can be kept in groups without much problem, just provide some cover for individual territories. And breeding pairs can be left together continually. Maybe I am wrong and you have yrs of experience with Macropodus, but seems not. Nature has been hybridizing for eons. If they are in a tub and they breed, it was meant to be. I would suggest stop passing book knowledge on to others. Try practical knowledge and see if that has the same result before preaching gospel. always the same result from these forums, you really need experienced moderators.

Nice to hear from you! Thanks for posting. I quite agree that practical knowledge is far preferable to book knowledge. We all learn some by reading, however, and I do not want to contribute to misinformation on that end. Correct me if I’m not following you, but here is how I’m connecting your post to the original…

(1) Paradise fish are not necessarily as incompatible as tank mates as first insinuated.

(2) Hybridization occurs in nature and is not necessarily no-no in the hobby.

I think I can speak for others, we’d love to learn more from your experience. You are right, I think, that all online forum posts risk poor input from less experienced aquarists interacting on matters above their expertise. It is perhaps also true that online forums too quickly devolve into harmful ad hominem feuds. If you can rise above both, please enlighten us. Paradise Fish are a beautiful part of the hobby that we all would value learning about.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Fish Folk

[rjv23]

sure, pls check youtube TaiAquatics here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPo2nnQg0ZJhwwfUGcKP0_Q

https://www.facebook.com/Global-Macropodus-Paradise-Fish-Breeders-Guild-環球天堂鬥魚協會-104827158649501

https://www.facebook.com/groups/225001934552940/?multi_permalinks=1474631936256594&notif_id=1639905682655488&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=not

I am working a color strain to remove the vertical stripes - orange metalic body - with painted blue in tails and fins. there are snake skin strains, as well as others that are not sterile. I keep tanks (80L) with 20 males. I use pvc pipe hotels and floating tubes to give each their own space. In community tank, they get along with most fish unless they are breeding, then they are territorial around the nest.

Sorry for my earlier harsh reaction. I have kept and bred fish for 35+ yrs. These have become my favorite.

[Fish Folk]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:49 AM, rjv23 said:

sure, pls check youtube TaiAquatics here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPo2nnQg0ZJhwwfUGcKP0_Q

https://www.facebook.com/Global-Macropodus-Paradise-Fish-Breeders-Guild-環球天堂鬥魚協會-104827158649501

https://www.facebook.com/groups/225001934552940/?multi_permalinks=1474631936256594&notif_id=1639905682655488&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=not

I am working a color strain to remove the vertical stripes - orange metalic body - with painted blue in tails and fins. there are snake skin strains, as well as others that are not sterile. I keep tanks (80L) with 20 males. I use pvc pipe hotels and floating tubes to give each their own space. In community tank, they get along with most fish unless they are breeding, then they are territorial around the nest.

Sorry for my earlier harsh reaction. I have kept and bred fish for 35+ yrs. These have become my favorite.

This is amazing! Thanks so much for sharing. Ive got such respect for serious breeders. For my part, I'm a basement-amateur-enthusiast. I'd absolutely love to see your strain in my local fish stores. Keep going!

[rjv23]

Thank you for the encouragement. Of course only my opinion, but I believe this is one of the most under valued fish in the hobby. Macropodus are close cousins to bettas, so most of the colors you see in bettas are available in Paradise fish. But there just hasn't been the development yet. there are many beautiful strains coming from Taiwan and Vietnam now. I have bred discus, angels, bettas, leopards fish and tried Thai, tiger fish and African butterfly fish (these were the ones on purpose). Paradise fish are the easiest to keep, the most durable and the hardiest. They breed easily and in great numbers. They are a perfect outdoor pond fish because they gobble mosquitos. I aim to develop a color strain for top down viewing that will shimmer in ponds with the painted top and tail. It is coming along, few more generations. I line breed these and constantly work in outside genes to keep stability and add body traits. I have seen gold stains and have crossed with other types. I also want to try and inject the cold weather hardiness of ocellatus if they will breed. I try and breed the outside males back into my females

 

[Fish Folk]

On 12/24/2021 at 10:51 AM, rjv23 said:

Thank you for the encouragement. Of course only my opinion, but I believe this is one of the most under valued fish in the hobby. Macropodus are close cousins to bettas, so most of the colors you see in bettas are available in Paradise fish. But there just hasn't been the development yet. there are many beautiful strains coming from Taiwan and Vietnam now. I have bred discus, angels, bettas, leopards fish and tried Thai, tiger fish and African butterfly fish (these were the ones on purpose). Paradise fish are the easiest to keep, the most durable and the hardiest. They breed easily and in great numbers. They are a perfect outdoor pond fish because they gobble mosquitos. I aim to develop a color strain for top down viewing that will shimmer in ponds with the painted top and tail. It is coming along, few more generations. I line breed these and constantly work in outside genes to keep stability and add body traits. I have seen gold stains and have crossed with other types. I also want to try and inject the cold weather hardiness of ocellatus if they will breed. I try and breed the outside males back into my females

 

That sounds like it takes some time. How do you balance line breeding for color with adding outside-line genetics for hardiness? I've heard different feedback. With livebearers, I think that I recall Greg Sage (Select Aquatics) saying when he spoke at our Fish Club in D.C.that he allows a few generations to line together before crossing out. Do you have a formula that works?

Also, out of curiosity: the thread above evolved from a concern about "deviation from the original coloring is the product of hybridization and are therefore sterile." I questioned that. I'm curious if you can confirm or deny this. It sounds like you're experience is that Paradise fish _can_ be selectively bred for color and hardiness. Any truth to the assertion that hybrids are sterile? I've not been convinced. Just looking for good intel.

Thanks again!

[rjv23]

sorry for the long winded reply.

I have a maybe strange strategy/philosophy when it comes to line breeding. My goal is to arrive one day at a color strain that is uniform but genetically viable meaning that the color will eventually breed true, but the group will be stable in the long run and can be bred true in large numbers. (some breeders interbreed so heavily that they get to the traits they want but the line is fragile and could easily collapse). I keep a set of about 20~24 breeders that I line breed to polish the color and body lines.  Not all are breeding all the time; some breed more than others; some are insurance in case something happens to my prime breeders. Something like cooking, pinch of this dash of that. Also, fish change as they mature. An individual that might not have looked good a few months ago grows into something that I want to add to the line. Sometimes I can see a pair together months before I set them up, other times I setup them up the day I decide. all depends. I have about 6~8 pairs that I swap in and out define the line. ( generations ago I started with 2 males that were store bought of different stock but had the general color I wanted and the body lines that suited me. I paired these with different females with the body lines I wanted. The first starting the females I had did not have the colors I wanted (thick blue with red stripes), but the body lines were good and they had the painted tails and fins I wanted. With Thai bettas the green color carries the metallic. In Paradise, I think its foil blue. So if you go too hard for the orange, the fish becomes dull orange. I look for breeders that carry a metallic orange. I found to get this I cull at night under a flashlight so I can keep the metallic. 

I line bred with eye to getting the best females carrying the color traits and body lines I want. I also work the males, But I have fewer active males than females.  I always choose fish from outside with traits that I want that are males. I don't use outside females. I breed these into my female stock. The first generation I cull heavily and keep males. then breed these back into my females using a different female. when these start throwing the kind of female I want (after 2 or 3 generations) then I breed these females back into my male stock.

so in fact I am always out crossing outside males to my line females. I keep these off spring separate until they carry the traits and have the health that I want before bringing them into the line. There maybe still be some cleaning up after, but they generally fit the direction I am going.

There are many things I need to improve yet. I dont keep good records, mostly because I breed in tubs that house mixed batches. Bettas are much easier because of size and tank space requirements.

At the beginning I was much more lenient regarding fin lines and culled to get the color. I cull strongly for body lines, especially top line. Now I will out cross for fin shape and ray separation, scale pattern, etc. Some of the Viet breeders have such beautiful crowntails. I will start introducing this soon. I also keep a few deformed fish with the traits that fit my line and try and get the mutation to breed thru. for example, I have a male with a clipped dorsal fin. I am hoping a female from his spawns show up with similar and I will put these together. similar, some paradise have color in the dorsal fin, I also try and get pairs that will carry this trait.

tks for your interest

[rjv23]

sorry, re; sterilization, I have had fish that I am sure were not pure opercularis.  and they were fertile. I have been tempted to try a direct hybrid, but want to wait until I get the traits I want fixed in my fish first, then will use the same strategy to outcross to ocellatus to get the cold weather hardiness and to spechti to get a refined body shape. have seen pictures of spechti with opercularis coloring so I think they are hybrids and were breeding.

My ultimate goal is to get a vibrant looking pond fish that shows well from the top and can handle outdoor cooler climates.

[Fish Folk]

@rjv23 dude, this project and explanation is really great. If you stay active here on the forum, I’d love to follow any breeding journals you’d care to share. You can edit your “signature” to hyperlink to journal threads you create. A Paradise Fish journal would be amazing! 

[rjv23]

ok, I will have a look at it tomorrow. I also created a facebook group, paradise breeders guild, and have the TaiAquatics youtube channel with a friend, pls visit, like and subscribe

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 12/24/2021 at 12:31 PM, rjv23 said:

sorry for the long winded reply.

I have a maybe strange strategy/philosophy when it comes to line breeding. My goal is to arrive one day at a color strain that is uniform but genetically viable meaning that the color will eventually breed true, but the group will be stable in the long run and can be bred true in large numbers. (some breeders interbreed so heavily that they get to the traits they want but the line is fragile and could easily collapse). I keep a set of about 20~24 breeders that I line breed to polish the color and body lines.  Not all are breeding all the time; some breed more than others; some are insurance in case something happens to my prime breeders. Something like cooking, pinch of this dash of that. Also, fish change as they mature. An individual that might not have looked good a few months ago grows into something that I want to add to the line. Sometimes I can see a pair together months before I set them up, other times I setup them up the day I decide. all depends. I have about 6~8 pairs that I swap in and out define the line. ( generations ago I started with 2 males that were store bought of different stock but had the general color I wanted and the body lines that suited me. I paired these with different females with the body lines I wanted. The first starting the females I had did not have the colors I wanted (thick blue with red stripes), but the body lines were good and they had the painted tails and fins I wanted. With Thai bettas the green color carries the metallic. In Paradise, I think its foil blue. So if you go too hard for the orange, the fish becomes dull orange. I look for breeders that carry a metallic orange. I found to get this I cull at night under a flashlight so I can keep the metallic. 

I line bred with eye to getting the best females carrying the color traits and body lines I want. I also work the males, But I have fewer active males than females.  I always choose fish from outside with traits that I want that are males. I don't use outside females. I breed these into my female stock. The first generation I cull heavily and keep males. then breed these back into my females using a different female. when these start throwing the kind of female I want (after 2 or 3 generations) then I breed these females back into my male stock.

so in fact I am always out crossing outside males to my line females. I keep these off spring separate until they carry the traits and have the health that I want before bringing them into the line. There maybe still be some cleaning up after, but they generally fit the direction I am going.

There are many things I need to improve yet. I dont keep good records, mostly because I breed in tubs that house mixed batches. Bettas are much easier because of size and tank space requirements.

At the beginning I was much more lenient regarding fin lines and culled to get the color. I cull strongly for body lines, especially top line. Now I will out cross for fin shape and ray separation, scale pattern, etc. Some of the Viet breeders have such beautiful crowntails. I will start introducing this soon. I also keep a few deformed fish with the traits that fit my line and try and get the mutation to breed thru. for example, I have a male with a clipped dorsal fin. I am hoping a female from his spawns show up with similar and I will put these together. similar, some paradise have color in the dorsal fin, I also try and get pairs that will carry this trait.

tks for your interest

Sweet! I love your passion for that species. Hopefully everything works out for you. Wish I had more room to play with, these will be on my Coldwater list.

I have seen some very nice solid blue crown tail and they look amazing.

Or even red looks great too

Edited December 25, 2021 by WhitecloudDynasty

[rjv23]

Below is a quick outline of my breeding procedure if you have interest;

1) Conditioned water, 40L tub, add 10ml 35% H2O2, in a net bag add banana, almond leaves, rooibos tea bags.

2) prepare 2 tanks, one for breeders, one for fry. Breeding tank 15~20 L, fry tank 10L. Breeder tanks can be planted with substrate, add cut clay pots or PVC pipe for the female to hang out in if she needs.  I use yellow plastic floaters for nesting media From my experience, these should be translucent so the male can tend and monitor the health of the eggs by the color thru the plastic. I use yellow because it is the color of leaves and similar to what they would use in the wild. (usually my breeders are already together for a while in the tank. I don't separate them unless I am going to change the pairing. If I plan to continually breed the same pair, they stay together). Some pairs hang out well together, some pairs the male dominates, others the female pushes him around. hard to tell until they are together. I don;t use the clear chimney like the method used when breeding bettas. I find I can keep the pairs together without that introduction and the need to remove the female. Many females will actually tend the nest with the male. Heat the tank to about 28C. I have spawned fish in colder water, but found the clutches are smaller and the fry are also smaller when they hatch. Just my observation, no real record keeping.

3) I start conditioning the fry tank several days before the pair starts breeding. for these tanks I use acrylic fridge trays or similar plastic tubes that hold about 10L. Bare bottomed. I use a sponge filter with a slot cut lift pipe that goes above the water column. air lifts to the top but the water is pushed out thru the thin slots in the pipe, creates a little current but no surface motion, gives the fry some movement to get them swimming. Populate these tanks with snails, Jap. trap door snails or bladder snails. Also place several almond leaves and other leaves to get the tank flora and flora and fauna growing. I also add aquaculture probiotics in these tanks at startup so the bacteria is established when the fry are moved in. I have thin pieces of high density styrofoam squares that I float on the surface to break any surface movement and give the fry something to anchor to.

4) When the pair are ready and mate, I usually wait until there are alot of small tails visible and some fry are squirting away from the nest. Takes a couple times to get the timing right, but before they are free swimming, I use a 500 micron shrimp net or large BBS strainer, slide it under the entire nest and lift the whole nest and fry out and into the rearing tank. Temp should be same or close. around 26~ 28C.

5) after the fry are moved they will flail around and find an anchor spot on the original nest or the foam squares, I let them eat thru their yolk sacs, when I see some are starting to move from the then start feeding vinegar eels into the tank. These are a great first food because they stay living in the water column and will anchor to the side of the tank. when you see the sides are picked clean, you know the fry are eating. I also use powdered food (hakari first bites, I also use vibra bites ground to powder in a coffee grinder) soaked in a squirt bottle and sprayed into the tank. after about a week I start feeding BBS. I also lower then turn off the heat. In another week I move them into rooftop tanks. I feed BBS, then black soldier fly powdered. Later frozen brine shrimp and then finally my staple food which is a homemade gel concoction of egg, black soldier fly, garlic, vitamins, minerals, agar and other, cooked and frozen.

Everyone will have their own system but this works well for me. the things I would stress are:

1) use the aquaculture probiotics (it creates biofilm and breaks down waste).

2) don't keep your tanks too clean, the fry will eat what is in the tank they need bacteria for food,

3) use snails to break down waste and filter water.

Any questions pls post, tks for your attention

 

[rjv23]

Another thing I forgot to mention. One of the early females that I use had very plain color. kinda of gray. Her caudal was also a shaped a little strange; a lyre shape but very pointed and the tips were elongated but very fine and pinched, (not usual shape for opercularis) . I suspected she was a hybrid cross to ocellatus ( I have heard some reports on facebook groups that  ocellatus + opercularis crosses are very gray looking and rather dull and ugly. But this is the canvas I was looking for. the opercularis male I had was well colored and I thought would pass the color traits well. Anyway, they were very prolific and had 2 spawns with several hundred fry each. Again, I am not positive of he true origin of the female, but she was some kind of hybrid and was very fertile. They threw very nice colored fish, I lost her later but would like to find another to breed back in again. 

Finally, I am working more blue into my line for the painted tail and fin colors. I have a pair isolated in a basin that have been together for a few weeks now. the female is from my stock, the male is blue with slight slight red stripes and no black. Looked like not much action there and I was about to give up. It has been about H 18dC to L 12d C in Taipei this week, quite cool all week. Today I found fry in the basin. Probably about 3 days old. So not only was the blue male fertile, he managed to get it done in pretty cool temps. Looks like about 100 fry.

Edited December 26, 2021 by rjv23