Issue with quarantine med trio? New cories died overnight :(

[rnn]

• pH: 7.4-7.6
• Nitrates: <10ppm
• Hardness: 300(GH)ppm (at least...chicago water is HARD)
• Nitrite: 0ppm
• Ammonia: 0ppm
• KH/Buffer: 80-100(KH)ppm
• Water Temperature: ~75F

I'm new to the hobby and brought home my first fish on 8/5--3 pygmy corydoras--and put them into a 5 gallon quarantine tank I had set up earlier that day with a sponge filter w/ nano pump, heater, dechlorinated water, and a couple plastic plants. The sponge filter was an extra that I had been keeping in my cycled main tank for several weeks. I tested the water before going to my LFS and all parameters were as listed above.

I acclimated the fish to the temperature of the QT by floating their bag in the tank for about 40 minutes (recommended by the LFS). The LFS told me they had been at the shop for ~2 weeks and were acclimated already to chicago water, so that shouldn't be an issue re: hardness. I didn't think to ask the pH of the LFS water.

After putting the fish into the QT, I added in the quarantine medication trio as a preventative measure per the Aquarium Coop instructions (1/2 packet of maracyn, 1/2 packet paracleanse, and 1/2 teaspoon ich-X) and everyone seemed okay the rest of that day, but then the night of 8/6 I checked on them before going to sleep and they had all died. They lasted a little over 24 hours with me.

I feel really awful! And I can't figure out where I went wrong. I tested water parameters with API master test kit and aquarium coop test strips before, during, and after having the fish in the QT and they were all as listed above.

I called my LFS about what happened and they said adding in all three medications at once could have been too stressful on top of the general transfer stress and that could have been what killed them. My sponge filter plastic tube also came right up to the water line creating a decent amount of surface agitation, and they said that I should raise the water level to have a higher column of submersed bubbles rising to the surface to increase aeration, as maybe there wasn't enough oxygen in the water. They recommended not adding any medication for 4-6 days unless the fish show specific signs of an illness. They also recommended adding aquarium salt at the beginning to help reduce stress.

I tried very hard to do lots of research and do everything right for the little dudes so it is very heartbreaking to have messed up so quickly. I feel so bad for the little cories. If I get up the courage to try again, should I skip the quarantine med trio? Raise my water level? Try aquarium salt? All of the above? Something totally different?

Thank you for any advice--this forum has been so supportive and helpful so far!

[laritheloud]

Quarantine is kind of a personal subject and your mileage may vary depending on who you speak to. However, my general policy is to not medicate the fish for the first 24 to 48 hours after introducing them to the quarantine tank. The reason why I do this is to let the fish rest a few days and to observe their appetite, behavior, eating habits. I also do this to check for anything obviously wrong with them from the start.

After 24 to 48 hours in the tank, if all is well, I'll start with Paracleanse or a similar anti-parasite med, especially for more sensitive fish. I personally do not choose to medicate with straight antibiotics unless I see signs of illness. Sometimes I'll add in a dose of ich-x along with paracleanse, but usually, I will not unless I see signs of minor external fungus or flashing.

If I still see any suspicion of internal parasites after paracleanse (white stringy poop), I'll throw in some Levamisole to de-worm for a few rounds. For wild caught fish or livebearers, I will be tempted to start with levamisole instead, as I've heard worms are a huge issue in both fish populations.

This is just my conservative approach to quarantine that's been working for me. I do think pygmy corydoras can be sensitive to water hardness, and I believe @Irene actually made a video about her experience with that. You can ask where the pygmies are sourced from when you go to the LFS again!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi @rnn, I'm very sorry for your losses, how traumatic and disheartening. I agree with @laritheloud it IS a personal subject. Everyone on here might give you different answers. You did nothing wrong you were trying to do what was best for them. Sadly we all go through something like this at some point in our fish keeping experiences. 

Personally, I don't medicate in QT unless I see signs of illness and generally QT a minimum of 4 weeks, 5 on wild caught fish. 

You can still follow the med trio in future but I agree with @laritheloud waiting at least a day or two, observing THEN doing it- but you can also go with the "weak fish" recommendations with the med trio and do 1 medication per week for 3 weeks. I'm not sure the LFS recommendation for Aquarium Salt and Corys is the best as I've always seen scaleless fish such as corys are more sensitive unless you cut the dose but if you do that not sure if it's helpful anyway. Others who keep corys might have an opinion. I have Otos and have treated the tanks they're in with salt but haven't had any issues. 

[laritheloud]

@xXInkedPhoenixX  I have done lower doses of salt with cories but I err on the side of caution with them. Then again, I don't really have the nerve to use salt most of the time, period. I try to stick with good, clean water with a mature filter and see if they settle in and recover naturally.

OP, I want to agree with @xXInkedPhoenixX above and emphasize that you really didn't do anything wrong. You did what you thought was best and followed some really strong advice. I'm not totally convinced that medicating them right away was responsible for their passing, either; they might have been weak in a way that wasn't easy to see.

I'm really sorry you had to experience this as a new fishkeeper, and I hope you aren't too disheartened. 

[rnn]

@laritheloud and @xXInkedPhoenixX thank you both so much. Your responses have been immensely supportive and encouraging and I truly appreciate it--I was ready to throw in the towel, but after reading through what you've both said a few times and letting things settle for a couple days, I'm looking forward to trying again (carefully and slowly). 

What both of you say about QT being personal helps make a lot of my research online make sense--I felt like I was finding different answers everywhere! So I also really appreciate you taking the time to go over what things you do for your new fish, as it helps give me different examples and parameters to think about. Your explanations helped me understand more about the meds, and different things I can try/adjust for next time. Definitely thinking I will let the little dudes settle for a couple days first--whether it was the meds or not, it sounds like this is the best way to observe how they're doing without any other interference so that I can better gauge how to proceed. I think I got super scared by all of the stories out there about secretly sick fish rapidly messing up a whole tank and the difficulty in treating a primary tank vs doing it in a QT. @laritheloud thanks for the link to Irene's account! I love her videos and somehow missed the one on cories--thank you!

@xXInkedPhoenixX I was hoping to have otos one day so that is good to know about otos + aquarium salt. I also see that you like snails! This might be a weird question, but do you have any recs for some particularly charming snail species that won't reproduce too much/take over? I'm thinking that while I gather my courage for another try with the fish, I'd love to get going on keeping a snail or two or three. I've always really loved snails! I've got a low tech planted 15 gallon tank with one little pond snail that snuck in on a plant two months ago (whose eggs I have been taking out because I learned they are basically the tribble of snails, haha).

Anyway, thank you both again! 

 

[Sal]

I'll just add that I have found cories to be a bit tricky to acclimate - maybe it's just my water/location, or the fact that my LFS always has them available as babies which may also make it harder?   I normally find that 1 out of 3 will die in quarantine, so when I am adding to my little school, I do tend to over buy them.  The ones that do make it through QT have done fine in the transfer to my big tank though?

 

[Irene]

@rnn When fish start dying very quickly, I've often found that it is not caused by illness but rather an issue with water parameters (such as ammonia, chlorine, or pH). After my new pygmy corys starting dropping like flies within a few days of purchasing them, I called my local fish store to see how their corys were doing. They said the pygmys had been with them for several weeks and were all healthy. Then I asked what their water parameters were, and it turns out they didn't tell me they had added pH buffers in that tank to drastically drop the pH down to 6.4. (The dwarf gourami I purchased from them at the same time was doing fine because they didn't alter the pH in the gourami tank.)

The lesson I learned is to always ask the store a) how long they've had the fish I'm interested in, b) what are they eating, and c) what are their water parameters. Store employees are humans and sometimes don't always remember to tell us everything we need to know, so it's my job to make sure I get all the necessary info before I give them my credit card. 🙂 The happy ending to the story is that I found some captive-bred/tank-raised pygmy corys online from a breeder in Maryland, double-checked that his corys would do well in my water, and now they're starting to breed in my 7.8-8.0 pH water!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@rnn you are welcome. Forums are designed for us to support each other and share knowledge, this just happens to be one of the best ones. 

Like @Irene said above one of the reasons they could have passed is a conflict between your home aquarium/water and the LFS's. So when you are ready to try again, ask them. You may have to source from a different LFS (I have, and had better luck with the 2nd one). Asking them how long the fish have been there, if they QT/medicate (though most of the time that answer will be no), and what their water parameters/temps are- are always good. 

When I took my Tiger Otos home recently I asked them for an EXTRA bag with THEIR water in it. So when I took the Otos home half the water was mine and half theirs (in a 2 gallon QT tank). So over the following days with small water changes on a daily basis it became all MY water. I feel like that worked out well. 

I have found Otos to be particularly sensitive; I have no corys but from this forum I have gathered the same. Were you planning on other fish? If you were planning on other tetras, rasboras or middle dwellers you might want to start with them next as I've found the bottom dwellers often have a better chance with a more established tank.

THAT being said you mentioned snails. For a 5 gallon tank I will always recommend 1 nerite snail. A Mystery snail has a lot of personality but in my opinion aren't great at cleaning algae and are BIG bioloaders (meaning a lot of waste)- they are wonderful so if in the future you upgrade to a bigger tank I would encourage you to get one. Nerites however are one of my favorites for algae eating snails that WON'T reproduce. If you happen to get a female they will lay tiny hard white eggs on surfaces and plants but they will never hatch. Some dislike the females because of the eggs because they aren't easy to clean off but I don't have an issue with it, I call it tank glitter. If that is something tht would bother you just ask the LFS you get it from if they would exchange if the snail turned out to be female. If you have to medicate your tank with something that is not snail or invert safe always have a back up plan for them. A nerite will help keep you algae in check (just make sure it's in the tank before you add one as they aren't great at eating commercial foods). Anyway you'll be amazed at how cute the Nerites can be watching their little mouths on the glass and how fast they are at keeping your tank and glass pretty much algae free with the exception of some algaes. There are lots of different colors and patterns- see some of the ones I have and have had:

Edited November 10, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
to clarify

[rnn]

@Irene thank you so much for taking the time to go over your experience with pygmy corys! I'm a little starstruck haha, you are a celebrity in my house! 

Conflicting water parameters is such a good point, and I realized I definitely had the assumption that just because I'm in the same city as my LFS, the water parameters would be the same in the store as in my tank. I brought my water parameters in to them and asked about everything except what their pH was in the pgymy cory tank. My LFS is wonderful and I definitely don't blame them--and I'll never forget to ask about water parameters again. I'll be calling them this week to follow up on that.

Looking ahead, is there a reputable online place to find individual breeders (such as the person you purchased your corys from in Maryland)? Or is it more of a google-and-see kind of thing?

 

@xXInkedPhoenixX thank you for the info on your method of acclimating otos! My main (non-QT) tank is a 15 gallon low tech planted tank that I've been plant-cycling for the past 2.5 months; I wasn't originally intending to get more than the corys, otos, some shrimp, and snails because I was worried about overstocking once the corys and otos have their groups filled in. That said I'm thinking it's not a bad idea to get a couple tetras/rasboras/middle dweller like you suggest, to help season the tank a bit more. 

Thanks for all the snail info and suggestions, too! Your snails are so cute! I didn't know there were so many kinds of nerites, they sound wonderful. I didn't realize it at the time, but I think I've hung out with either apple snails or mystery snails before--I visited a friend-of-a-friend years ago who had some pretty large snails that would come to the water line during meal time for hand feeding, haha. 

Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice!

[Irene]

@rnn Awww, thanks! I actually found Aquatic Life Farm because another forum member mentioned them. (I think it was @Fish Folk, but I could be wrong.) So, probably asking the forum would be a good place to get recommendations!

[Fish Folk]

On 11/16/2021 at 4:20 PM, Irene said:

@rnn Awww, thanks! I actually found Aquatic Life Farm because another forum member mentioned them. (I think it was @Fish Folk, but I could be wrong.) So, probably asking the forum would be a good place to get recommendations!

Frank, who runs Aquatic Life Farm, is a long time member of our fish Club, PVAS (Potomac Valley Aquarium Society) --  the same club where Michael Barber who is friends with Dean and helps lead the Amazon collecting tours with Devon Graham, etc. has been an active Board member of. Frank is one of these awesome basement and mini pond breeders who has so many tanks . . . it's almost unbelievable. My son and I travel out to his place, and try to soak in as much knowledge as possible. Sometimes my water and Frank's water disagree with certain fish I buy from him. Other times, it's pure magic. He's lower Potomac River -- very, very hard water. We're way up in the highlands in Western MD, with much softer water.

Two things you can try to find good stock: (1) If you find an active YouTuber, reach out in comments or by business e-mail, and inquire about their stock. Personally, I've found this very productive both as a breeder myself and as a buyer. (2) Look good and hard at Aquabid. Learn the sellers. You might be able to reach out by e-mail, and make on-the-side inquiries about their stock, water parameters, etc. (3) I'm at a point now where I can _trade_ certain fish I breed with other pretty well-established professional breeders. I've learned that they network, and often reach out to me. I'm actually at a point now where I'm having to turn down a few offers here and there now because I just don't have room in my tanks.

Once you start breeding seriously, you end up with tanks like this...

There's still hundreds of Electric Blue Acaras in this 55 gal . . . even after I've sold and donated a bunch. Oh and there's hundreds of Bristlenose Plecos too 🤪 This tank is so rich in Nitrate, that Pothos is going to take over my entire basement soon . . .