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GH & KH explanation please


Seahorse
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I am using the API GH&KH test kit and simply do not understand it.  I followed directions exactly but with GH the water in the test tube was never orange but it did change to green with added drops...how green should it be to determine the level?  hint of green, really green, etc.? Similar with KH water was never blue but did change to yellow but again, how yellow should it be?  Now what?  GH took ~6 drops, KH took ~9 drops, how does that translate on the chart?  The Master Test Kit is so much easier to work with.  TIA

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From your description, it sounds like you may have little to no hardness.  Do you know what your PH is? Is it stable? When doing the test, the first drop will normally turn the water orange for GH and blue for KH.   Make sure you put the cap on  and invert it a few times between drops.  If the first drop turns the water green for GH or yellow for KH then your result is one drop. The conversion chart shows 1 drop to be 1 degree of hardness or about 17.9ppm.  Just a hint of color change is when you stop the test. The important thing is to make sure the water is mixed between drops.  

 

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Thank you.  I'm using bottled drinking water purified by RO.  The pH is ~6.0 to 6.4 and yes, it has been stable.  I followed the instructions to a T, shook bottles thoroughly and then the tubes after each drop.  My tap water shows 1.0 to 1.5 ppm of ammonia so I had to switch to bottled water.  Would mixing spring water with the RO improve things?  I'll repeat the tests to double check my results as there was no color change with the first drop in either test.

 

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If your GH and KH are both low (which is what you seem to be describing), both can be raised simultaneously using the following:

  1. Adding crushed coral to your filter or substrate.  This is the most prevalent recommendation I see on the internet, but not the solution I prefer.  Once covered by bacterial slime, this substance becomes ineffective, I’ve found.
  2. Adding aragonite to your filter or substrate.  This does not have the same issue as crushed coral in terms of reduced effectiveness bacterial slime coating.
  3. Remineralizing using Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) and Magnesium Sulfate (epsom salts). This is inexpensive, and the results are immediate, but care needs to taken due to salt content. 

Also, be aware that using any of these methods will also raise pH, so you have to be careful that you have pH “headroom”, and that you increase slowly (as fish are very sensitive to rapid changes in PH).

Edited by tonyjuliano
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On 6/27/2021 at 7:24 PM, Seahorse said:

Thank you.  I'm using bottled drinking water purified by RO.  The pH is ~6.0 to 6.4 and yes, it has been stable.  I followed the instructions to a T, shook bottles thoroughly and then the tubes after each drop.  My tap water shows 1.0 to 1.5 ppm of ammonia so I had to switch to bottled water.  Would mixing spring water with the RO improve things?  I'll repeat the tests to double check my results as there was no color change with the first drop in either test.

 

It sounds like you are performing the test correctly, the issue is that RO water is stripped of dissolved solids, so your testing would likely be complete after only one drop.  When you say spring water do you mean water from a well? or from a bottling company? the later would likely have the hardness removed as well, but you could always test it and see.  

If never tried them, but the co-op does sell ammonia pads. You might be able to recirculate your tap water through them prior to doing a water change.  I'm thinking like a separate container with a filter that runs through the pad until the ammonia goes to 0.  I guess it would depend on the amount of water that you would need. Or you could just add hardness to your RO water like tonyjuliano posted above.

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Yes, it would be bottled spring water and I will buy a gallon and test it.  I had to leave city water because of the chemicals they put in it after the Texas freeze and I just can't reduce the ammonia level testing shows to be in it.  I have gone through gallons of Prime and Stability and added a bag of Fluval Ammonia Remover to the HOB filter (the tank also has a sponge filter) but ammonia levels will not go back to zero. Nitrites are 0, nitrates 20-40.  This is the most frustrating hobby I have ever tried.  Years ago I bought a tank, filled it with water, let it sit for a few days, added guppies and off we went.  Never tested, didn't even have a heater!  Fish grew, had a zillion babies and I loved it.  Not so much today.  I am ready to give it up.  Thank you for all your help and advice.

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On 6/28/2021 at 10:33 AM, Isaac M said:

@Seahorse before you give up, may I ask why you want to give up? Is it because of the tap water you have or because of the nitrogen cycle (could not get ammonia to go down?)? What is stopping you from having that guppy tank that you loved? 

It is just very frustrating and to be honest there is so much conflicting advice given, all well-meaning and appreciated but it seems I spend all my time (and money) trying to get a safe healthy tank for my fish.  The nitrogen cycle is a nightmare and no matter what I do, the ammonia level will not go back to zero.  I was told to switch to RO water because it is chemical free and it is so I have no clue where the ammonia is coming from in a fishless tank with no live plants and no decorations, just the same gravel and silk plants it has always had. I was told that with a pH of ~6 an ammonia level of less than 1.0 would be nontoxic and my water probably had more chloramine than chlorine so it would be safe for fish.  Wrong.  I have another tank that is running smoothly and everyone is healthy and its getting RO water during water changes too.  I just don't know how to fix the tank with the mystery ammonia.

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I completely sympathize with your frustrations.  One of the downsides to the internet is the propagation of misinformation, both passed along due to misinterpretation and sometimes even willful ignorance.

There many things that are repeated that have little basis in fact.

That being said…

On 6/28/2021 at 12:00 PM, Seahorse said:

I was told to switch to RO water because it is chemical free

This was patently bad advice to give to someone without a lot of practical experience.

Yes, RO water contains no “chemicals”.  It contains no harmful chlorine, chloramine, or other potentially harmful salts or metals.

But it also doesn’t contain any necessary minerals and a proper degree of hardness (both carbonate and general) which are required.

RO water is safe, but needs remineralization before use to create a healthy and stable environment.

It seems like you never got that piece of information.

The chlorine/chloramine in your tap water can be easily neutralized used any number of safe and effective means (commercially available water conditioners, or just plain old ascorbic acid - vitamin C).

You don’t want a degree in chemistry, I get it.  You just want an easy to manage system that creates safe and healthy conditions for you fish, that’s obvious.

Wading through all the BS to get there in the internet age, where everything is frequently regurgitated as “fact” can be an exercise in frustration.

Which is where you are right now.  I feel for you.

Edited by tonyjuliano
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On 6/28/2021 at 11:07 AM, Seahorse said:

Yes, it would be bottled spring water and I will buy a gallon and test it.  I had to leave city water because of the chemicals they put in it after the Texas freeze and I just can't reduce the ammonia level testing shows to be in it.  I have gone through gallons of Prime and Stability and added a bag of Fluval Ammonia Remover to the HOB filter (the tank also has a sponge filter) but ammonia levels will not go back to zero. Nitrites are 0, nitrates 20-40.  This is the most frustrating hobby I have ever tried.  Years ago I bought a tank, filled it with water, let it sit for a few days, added guppies and off we went.  Never tested, didn't even have a heater!  Fish grew, had a zillion babies and I loved it.  Not so much today.  I am ready to give it up.  Thank you for all your help and advice.

Do not Give up my friend....We are all here to help you.  We will get you on the right path and make you gupy tank a dream come true.  I myself am in the process of setting up a 10 gallon Guppy pond.  I have had a few major issues that have frustrated me so I know right where your at but with some great advice from people here...I should be adding in the fish very soon.  

 

We are here for you!

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On 6/28/2021 at 2:19 PM, ARMYVET said:

Do not Give up my friend....We are all here to help you.  We will get you on the right path and make you gupy tank a dream come true.  I myself am in the process of setting up a 10 gallon Guppy pond.  I have had a few major issues that have frustrated me so I know right where your at but with some great advice from people here...I should be adding in the fish very soon.  

 

We are here for you!

Thank you for your service and your encouragement...mine is a Navy family 😉 I'm learning more and more, starting to see the relationship between pH, temp and NH3 readings and that is helping.  Maybe with my low pH and high temp the NH3 isn't as toxic as it seems and I hope to get fish back in that tank soon too.  Good luck to both of us!

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On 6/28/2021 at 2:11 PM, tonyjuliano said:

I completely sympathize with your frustrations.  One of the downsides to the internet is the propagation of misinformation, both passed along due to misinterpretation and sometimes even willful ignorance.

There many things that are repeated that have little basis in fact.

That being said…

This was patently bad advice to give to someone without a lot of practical experience.

Yes, RO water contains no “chemicals”.  It contains no harmful chlorine, chloramine, or other potentially harmful salts or metals.

But it also doesn’t contain any necessary minerals and a proper degree of hardness (both carbonate and general) which are required.

RO water is safe, but needs remineralization before use to create a healthy and stable environment.

It seems like you never got that piece of information.

The chlorine/chloramine in your tap water can be easily neutralized used any number of safe and effective means (commercially available water conditioners, or just plain old ascorbic acid - vitamin C).

You don’t want a degree in chemistry, I get it.  You just want an easy to manage system that creates safe and healthy conditions for you fish, that’s obvious.

Wading through all the BS to get there in the internet age, where everything is frequently regurgitated as “fact” can be an exercise in frustration.

Which is where you are right now.  I feel for you.

You are right, no one mentioned adding minerals to RO water. The bottled drinking water isn't sold as RO, it just says it was purified using RO so I'm not sure if that the same thing, the cost is sure a lot less for the drinking water. I think a better choice for me is bottled spring water, I tested some untreated spring water this morning and got ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10-20 and pH 6.0.  Houston tap water is terrible, I don't even give it to my cats.  

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Jusy curious as to what your ammonia levels are showing. I’ve been on several forums and met Quite a few people with the same issue as I. Cycled tanks get never get ammonia to 0. I always have the api master kit read .25 or slightly between 0-.25 it drives me crazy. I did but the ammonia filter removing media to see if it helps but will take a bit to see if that rids me of the remaining readable ammonia. 

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On 6/28/2021 at 4:33 PM, Seahorse said:

You are right, no one mentioned adding minerals to RO water. The bottled drinking water isn't sold as RO, it just says it was purified using RO so I'm not sure if that the same thing, the cost is sure a lot less for the drinking water. I think a better choice for me is bottled spring water, I tested some untreated spring water this morning and got ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10-20 and pH 6.0.  Houston tap water is terrible, I don't even give it to my cats.  

Here’s some advice, evaluate it carefully and form your own conclusions…

I would recommend settling on the spring water (it appears you’ve already decided on this).  No matter what the parameters, it will provide a stable basis to move forward.

100% spring water usually contains a healthy balance of minerals.  “Purified” drinking water is usually RO water that has been remineralized to some degree (they add minerals for “taste”, as pure RO water is pretty unpalatable to most persons).

it looks like you are already familiar with testing the most important water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, etc.) but I would consider adding the KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness) tests to your arsenal.  If you are using the API kit, these 2 are available as a complementary set.

KH is the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate material present.  I won’t bore you with too much detail, but this is important- as it also acts as the primary buffer, preventing radical swings in pH levels.  These “swings” are dangerous to most aquatic life, especially fishes.  Having a healthy KH level prevents rapid pH change.

GH is mostly the amount of calcium and magnesium ions in the water.  These are important for proper bone formation (among other things) and overall health.

The pH level you tested of the spring water (6.0) is a tad on the low side to be amenable to a lot of species.  This probably means that the KH level is on the low side too (not always, but often).

Here’s a simple “formula” which I think will serve you well:

  • Use the spring water
  • Add aragonite (either base rock or crushed) to your setup.  This will help regulate hardness.  I would resist any advice to use crushed coral for this same purpose, as it stops releasing ions when covered with bio-slime (aragonite does not have this issue).
  • Top off for evaporation with RO water.  The minerals do not evaporate, and remain in the tank, so you really only want to replace the evaporated h2o.
  • Test your water parameters on a regular basis and make changes slowly, and only when absolutely necessary.
  • Don’t overdo things like big water changes.  If you have zero ammonia and nitrite, and a healthy level of nitrate, leave it be.  Less can be more, in this game.
  • Lastly, enjoy the fruits of you labor, confident in the education and resulting experience you are providing yourself.

 

Edited by tonyjuliano
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On 6/28/2021 at 3:48 PM, Georgiapeach88 said:

Jusy curious as to what your ammonia levels are showing. I’ve been on several forums and met Quite a few people with the same issue as I. Cycled tanks get never get ammonia to 0. I always have the api master kit read .25 or slightly between 0-.25 it drives me crazy. I did but the ammonia filter removing media to see if it helps but will take a bit to see if that rids me of the remaining readable ammonia. 

Most frequent reading is 0.50 but it goes down to 0.25 and up to 1.0.  I belong to a number of fish groups on FB and there is even debate as to whether to use the ammonia removing media in the HOB ior something like Purigen.  My city water contains chloramine (avg. 3.2 MCL) and out of the tap ammonia is 0.50 to 1.0 ppm.  I've added Prime and Stability daily for almost 2 weeks and there is no change.  I took the sponge filter out of my other tank and squeezed it out into this one and while it may have been "instantly cycled" it still shows ammonia on the API test kit.  I guess I need to just put some fish in and see what happens.

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On 6/28/2021 at 7:21 PM, Seahorse said:

Most frequent reading is 0.50 but it goes down to 0.25 and up to 1.0.  I belong to a number of fish groups on FB and there is even debate as to whether to use the ammonia removing media in the HOB ior something like Purigen.  My city water contains chloramine (avg. 3.2 MCL) and out of the tap ammonia is 0.50 to 1.0 ppm.  I've added Prime and Stability daily for almost 2 weeks and there is no change.  I took the sponge filter out of my other tank and squeezed it out into this one and while it may have been "instantly cycled" it still shows ammonia on the API test kit.  I guess I need to just put some fish in and see what happens.

Oh wow. I’ve not encountered tap like that. But also newbie to the hobby. And my water is basically Ro water outta the tap. It’s been. A crazy hard few month getting things cycled after Kh and ph issues. And big box store let me get the wrong substrate in first place. 

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On 6/28/2021 at 4:02 PM, tonyjuliano said:

Here’s some advice, evaluate it carefully and form your own conclusions…

I would recommend settling on the spring water (it appears you’ve already decided on this).  No matter what the parameters, it will provide a stable basis to move forward.

100% spring water usually contains a healthy balance of minerals.  “Purified” drinking water is usually RO water that has been remineralized to some degree (they add minerals for “taste”, as pure RO water is pretty unpalatable to most persons).

it looks like you are already familiar with testing the most important water parameters (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, etc.) but I would consider adding the KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness) tests to your arsenal.  If you are using the API kit, these 2 are available as a complementary set.

KH is the amount of carbonate and bicarbonate material present.  I won’t bore you with too much detail, but this is important- as it also acts as the primary buffer, preventing radical swings in pH levels.  These “swings” are dangerous to most aquatic life, especially fishes.  Having a healthy KH level prevents rapid pH change.

GH is mostly the amount of calcium and magnesium ions in the water.  These are important for proper bone formation (among other things) and overall health.

The pH level you tested of the spring water (6.0) is a tad on the low side to be amenable to a lot of species.  This probably means that the KH level is on the low side too (not always, but often).

Here’s a simple “formula” which I think will serve you well:

  • Use the spring water
  • Add aragonite (either base rock or crushed) to your setup.  This will help regulate hardness.  I would resist any advice to use crushed coral for this same purpose, as it stops releasing ions when covered with bio-slime (aragonite does not have this issue).
  • Top off for evaporation with RO water.  The minerals do not evaporate, and remain in the tank, so you really only want to replace the evaporated h2o.
  • Test your water parameters on a regular basis and make changes slowly, and only when absolutely necessary.
  • Don’t overdo things like big water changes.  If you have zero ammonia and nitrite, and a healthy level of nitrate, leave it be.  Less can be more, in this game.
  • Lastly, enjoy the fruits of you labor, confident in the education and resulting experience you are providing yourself.

 

Thanks Tony, that's very helpful.  Where would I find Aragonite?  I don't recall seeing it by that name in my LFS.  Is there a brand for it?  I've tested GH and KH and I have very soft water but that's testing the RO water.  I need to check the spring water.

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On 6/28/2021 at 6:27 PM, Seahorse said:

Thanks Tony, that's very helpful.  Where would I find Aragonite?  I don't recall seeing it by that name in my LFS.  Is there a brand for it?  I've tested GH and KH and I have very soft water but that's testing the RO water.  I need to check the spring water.

You're getting solid advice here. Hang in there.

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@Seahorse please see screenshots below from seachems website. I would not dose any prime anymore after initially conditioning the tap water and then test for ammonia again. It could be and I would be surprised if its not a false ammonia reading. I would also test your tap water before using any prime for ammonia. I hope that helps! 
43BD86F6-32D0-4A85-8DA3-D1522BBF391E.jpeg.ac5f8c39cf5165b6467605e243544de7.jpeg

EF46332F-0BAF-47E3-A64A-E7430B9739DA.jpeg.3c27ded2df601426691613a1b1f4ec06.jpeg

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On 6/28/2021 at 6:25 PM, Georgiapeach88 said:

Oh wow. I’ve not encountered tap like that. But also newbie to the hobby. And my water is basically Ro water outta the tap. It’s been. A crazy hard few month getting things cycled after Kh and ph issues. And big box store let me get the wrong substrate in first place. 

I just have white gravel from a chain store and it's in both tanks.  I was told early on not to chase pH or KH, etc. that keeping it stable was more important than a specific number.  fish will adjust, or soI'm told.  After the winter storm in Texas, Houston dumped all kinds of stuff in out city water, that's when I switched to bottled water.  I live in a high rise building and they add a water softener to our water so.....

 

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On 6/28/2021 at 6:30 PM, Isaac M said:

@Seahorse please see screenshots below from seachems website. I would not dose any prime anymore after initially conditioning the tap water and then test for ammonia again. It could be and I would be surprised if its not a false ammonia reading. I would also test your tap water before using any prime for ammonia. I hope that helps! 
43BD86F6-32D0-4A85-8DA3-D1522BBF391E.jpeg.ac5f8c39cf5165b6467605e243544de7.jpeg

EF46332F-0BAF-47E3-A64A-E7430B9739DA.jpeg.3c27ded2df601426691613a1b1f4ec06.jpeg

Isaac, if you read the prior posts you'll see I've done all you're suggesting.  Two fish in the tank died and both had ammonia burns on their gills so I'm pretty sure ammonia is there, don't know how much but enough to kill 2 fish that were in it when it spiked.

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@Seahorse I apologize, I do not see those posts. Anyways, since @tonyjuliano already nailed it as you said, I will let him continue to help you to not be another voice in the conversation haha it is always a better idea to learn from one person than from many as you already know haha good luck with your aquarium, I wish you the best! 

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On 6/28/2021 at 7:27 PM, Seahorse said:

Where would I find Aragonite? 

Here’s a link…

https://www.amazon.com/Carib-Sea-Aragonite-Aquarium-Sand/dp/B00C5H0BCI/ref=pd_di_sccai_1/140-3156567-2877306?pd_rd_w=DFvsh&pf_rd_p=c9443270-b914-4430-a90b-72e3e7e784e0&pf_rd_r=C9Z1HZV8DVK4J0CNCP4H&pd_rd_r=0a7a5281-e5ba-4622-891a-811caa99d97f&pd_rd_wg=Zedz3&pd_rd_i=B00C5H0BCI&psc=1

Don’t replace all your substrate with it - it will raise your pH to slightly over 8 in that instance.  Just mix it in with the gravel of your choice.

Add it slowly and test after a few hours, keep adding until your pH reads in the area of 7.2-7.4, this will put you in a spot that most species can adjust to easily.

On 6/28/2021 at 7:21 PM, Seahorse said:

I guess I need to just put some fish in and see what happens.

I would strongly advise against this.  I would suggest a full “reset”.  Drain the tank, fill with spring water.  Check KH level and add aragonite slowly until range is betweeN 4-8 dKH, and pH is in the neighborhood of 7.2 to 7.4.  KH and pH are intrinsically linked, as you raise or lower KH, pH will raise or lower correspondingly.  

Make sure everything is at your desired temperature while doing this, to ensure accuracy.

When this is complete, I would commence reestablishing cycle.  I can help you with that, if you desire, but let’s get the the other water parameters in check first.

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