64g at 60 days: Questions on Next Steps

[d6veteran]

Hi everyone.  I recently got back into the hobby after 20 years and so much has changed.  I feel like I am re-learning everything (and trying live plants for the first time).  I have a bunch of questions and am looking for advice on next steps for my new tank.

// By the way.  How lucky am I to live 30 minutes from Aquarium Co-op??  Best fish store, staff and community ever.

Setup

• Waterbox 64g All in One
• Sump has 4 filter socks, bio balls on mid-left chamber, bio max in mid-right chamber
• Variable water pump (Hydor Seltz) exchanging between 250-500 gph.  Most often set to around 350 gph.
• CO2 Art dual regulator set at 3-4 bps (runs during lighting)
• AI Freshwater LED running about 50% for 10 hours
• I used sand, which I regret, but am locked in now lol.

Stock

• Slowly added the following over last 5 weeks
• 20 nerites 
• 2 small plecos
• 10 Zebra Danios
• 8 Kyathit Danios
• 10 Cory Pandas
• 20 Java ferns (various types)
• 6 Buce

Maintenance

• 50% water water change 1x/week (Saturday), add general fertilizer and potassium
• 20% water change 1x/week (Wednesday, add general fertilizer and potassium

Water Composition

• pH: 6.8 before lighting/CO2, 6.6 end of lighting/CO2
• GH/KH ~80ppm
• Ammonia/Nitrite: 0 pre/post water change (too low to measure?)
• Nitrate: 5 pre water changes, 0 post water change
• Phosphate: 0-.2 (several tests, not exactly sure but below .2)

Questions/Advice

Fish are active - showing healthy behavior.  Plecos munching on driftwood, Danios schooling, playing in the current and 3 females appear to be full of eggs.  Plants brown a bit after being added, but new growth starts from roots after 1-2 weeks.

I have had algae for about 5 weeks now.  Never gets too bad.  Snails are eating down the white hair algae, and both snails, corys and plecos are eating green algae off plants/glass.

How to feed plants?

• About 3 weeks ago Nitrates went to 0.   They are barely getting up to 3-5 right before water changes.  Do my plants need more Nitrates?  
• I am using fertilizer 2x/week as instructed (both a general and potassium).  How do I know if this is the right does/schedule?  What signals should I be looking for?
• The algae is consistently growing on plants.  It isn't getting out of control, seems to be plateaued the past 2-3 weeks, but is there a way to reduce it while feeding the plants?
• I cannot tell if I have too much / too little light.  When I first added plants I was getting a lot of pearling, but lately a lot less.  But I have not changed anything other than adding fish and plants.  Do I need more CO2?  More light?  More nutrients?

Can I keep adding fish?

Using a variety of fish stock calculators I have room for about 10 more Danios.  Which I'd like to do since they look super cool schooling through the plants.  Am I ready to add all 10 more?  Or do I need to stabilize longer?

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by d6veteran

[Mmiller2001]

You definitely need to increase CO2 and fertilizer. You are looking for roughly a 1.0 pH drop. And you want that drop prior to mid light cycle. You also want 10 to 30ppm Nitrates, and match potassium, so 1:1 ratio. Phosphate should be around 10:1, so if 20ppm Nitrates, then 2 phosphate. Dosing iron from .2 to 1.0, other traces can follow iron dosing. This strategy is Estimative Index, and a 50% water change is mandatory, so EI should work well for you. What lights do you have? Your current algae problem is most likely related to low co2 and limited nutrients.

https://barrreport.com/threads/ei-light-for-those-less-techy-folks.2794/

Edited March 21, 2021 by Mmiller2001

[d6veteran]

Thanks for the detailed reply Mmiller.

Would you recommend I start by increasing the CO2 first (to say 5bps)?  Watch and measure for a couple days?  Then move on to other items?

I will read up on how to bump up the Nitrates.

Quote

Your current algae problem is most likely related to low co2 and limited nutrients.

Does this mean ... that the plants are not utilizing the available light with a lack of CO2 and nutrients, so the algae is stepping in?  

 

Quote

What lights do you have?

I have two AI Freshwater Prime (https://www.aquaillumination.com/products/prime-freshwater).  About 2 weeks ago I adjust the light profile down a bit to the following schedule. Third image shows the intensity during peak.

 

[d6veteran]

56 minutes ago, Mmiller2001 said:

https://barrreport.com/threads/ei-light-for-those-less-techy-folks.2794/

Thanks for the link!  This is super informative and helpful.

[Mmiller2001]

2 minutes ago, d6veteran said:

Thanks for the detailed reply Mmiller.

Would you recommend I start by increasing the CO2 first (to say 5bps)?  Watch and measure for a couple days?  Then move on to other items?

I will read up on how to bump up the Nitrates.

Does this mean ... that the plants are not utilizing the available light with a lack of CO2 and nutrients, so the algae is stepping in?  

 

I have two AI Freshwater Prime (https://www.aquaillumination.com/products/prime-freshwater).  About 2 weeks ago I adjust the light profile down a bit to the following schedule. Third image shows the intensity during peak.

 

Bubbles per second is different for every tank. You'd be shocked at my BPS. But luckily, we can use a 1 pH drop to come very close to calculating ppm CO2. I would, on your day off, start increasing your co2. You say your pH is 7.6. so double your BPS and wait about 30mins and test pH. We want about a 6.6. when we hit 6.6, we know our co2 is about 30ppm. So increase every 30mins and test. You can push to 1 hour as well. Keep an eye on your fish, we don't want them passing out on us!

If you know your KH, you can use this scale, that I will attach, to determine ppm CO2

Yes, your CO2 is the limiting factor. So algae is out competing your plant growth. Light drives plant uptake. More light, more fertilizer and more CO2 is needed. 

I'm not familiar with your light, but if we can dial in CO2 and fertilizer, we can then assume algae is from too much light.

To be honest, for me, this is the hardest part. I'm still dialing my lights back. It's a hard balance to strike. I'm still dialing in, but I'm almost there.

[Mmiller2001]

I'm sensing the Force in you. These articles were invaluable to me. I love this guy. Hit the learn drop down box.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/

The CO2 articles will explain everything.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Mmiller2001

[d6veteran]

Super helpful!  I have a couple days off this week (in a row) and will try this out.

But I just realized a MAJOR typo.  pH readings should be 6.8 and 6.6!!

So that means I am at 30ppm right?

[DShelton]

It depends on your KH. You are aiming for a 1 point drop in pH (i.e. 7 to 6) from the time the CO2 is off (i.e. unsaturated) until the water reaches "peak" CO2 saturation depending on KH.

"Peak" saturation is generally accepted to be roughly 30ppm.

[Mmiller2001]

20 minutes ago, d6veteran said:

Super helpful!  I have a couple days off this week (in a row) and will try this out.

But I just realized a MAJOR typo.  pH readings should be 6.8 and 6.6!!

So that means I am at 30ppm right?

Very close to it. Fish waste and nitrates are an Acid, so they affect those numbers some. The "pros" will tell you 1.1 to 1.5 pH drop is closer to true 30ppm. But in general 1 point is pretty safe. 

[d6veteran]

55 minutes ago, DShelton said:

It depends on your KH. You are aiming for a 1 point drop in pH (i.e. 7 to 6) from the time the CO2 is off (i.e. unsaturated) until the water reaches "peak" CO2 saturation depending on KH.

In the chart above.  What is the units for KH?  My test kit uses ppm and I am at like 70 ppm.

[Mmiller2001]

5 minutes ago, d6veteran said:

In the chart above.  What is the units for KH?  My test kit uses ppm and I am at like 70 ppm.

Divide your ppm by 17.1 for degrees KH

 

[ChefConfit]

Hey just thought I'd chime in with my take on your situation. It's not that the advice you're getting is wrong it's just that IMO it's unnecessarily complicated. Both for someone just getting back into the hobby and for the plants you have. There are as many ways of keeping fish as there are fish keepers, but I tend to prefer the methods that give me more time to enjoy my tank and less time doing (necessary) maintenance. 

The only plants that you listed are java fern and buce. Both are slow growing plants that do well in low tech setups. That's not to say they don't also do well in high tech setups like yours, just that they don't need them.  

If you do want a high tech setup I'd the simplified version of EI dosing George Farmer uses. He has a pretty good podcast where he talks about it(you shod give it a listen) , but essentially I'd start with one pump of fert per day for that size tank (I'm assuming you're using easy green since you live so close to the coop). I wouldn't dose any iron, the plants you currently have aren't known to consume a ton of iron so the amount in Easy Green should suffice (overdosing iron or any nutrient can contribute to algae growth). Then you should do one 50% water change per week.

As for making sure you are dosing Co2 properly I'd recommend a drop checker. It a glass vial that stays in your aquarium filled with a solution that changes color based on the amount of co2 in the water. They are pretty accurate but lag behind the true co2 level by about half an hour because co2 has to get into the air in the vial via gas exchange then into the solution before it changes color. 

As for preventing algae growth while promoting plant growth the best advice I can give you is add fast growing plants. The plants you have right now are very slow growing, so even when growing as fast as possible in a perfect high tech setup it is easy for algae to outcompete them for nutrients. Some stems and or floating plants will grow much faster and outcompete the algae. 

Once again the other advice you've received could work for you, I'm just offering a simpler solution. 

[d6veteran]

ChefConfit, great advice.  Thanks for that.  All the science is fun, but yes, I am spending a large amount of time on the tank vs enjoying it.

[ChefConfit]

@d6veteran yea I love the idea of having a beautifully scaped high tech tank, but I know I would have the time it takes to maintain one.

You should check out George Farmer on YouTube and his podcast too. He is a very highly regarded aquascape, but he advocates using easy to grow plants and easier to maintain systems. His scrapes are just as beautiful as any you'd see from the other top aquascapers, but in theory could be maintained by any aquarist with moderate experience with plants. 

[d6veteran]

Thanks for all the help!  Update.  I worked on raising pH and kH (added 4 lbs of crushed coral to sump) and today reached the following timeline.

 

• 7AM (pre-CO2/lights): 6.5 kH / 7.4 pH
• 10:30AM: 6-7 kH / 7.2 pH
• 12:30PM: 6 kH / 7.0 pH
• 2:30PM: 6 kH / 6.8 pH
• 5PM: 7 kH / 6.8 pH

For the kH I get results between 6 and 7 drops.  Often the 6th drop turns the water slightly yellow, but not bright yellow.  So calling it 6.5 kH.

According to the chart I am getting into the red at 6.8pH (which is higher than when I was bottoming at 6.6 pH at peak CO2).  Going to dial down the bubbles a bit tomorrow to keep it above 6.8pH.

Any comments/advice welcome.

 

 

 

 

[Koi]

To keep it short because co2 is kind of a whole can of worms to open up. The chart isn’t set in stone, it’s more of a guideline. There’s a lot of things like buffers that can skew your true results (like the crushed coral) which gives you a false co2 reading.

The chart will always say you have more co2 even when it is actually lower.  But luckily it will never be the other way around so you will never run into a situation where the co2 will be higher than what the chart says.

I agree with what @ChefConfit said about your plant stocking. With such slow growers reaching a 30 ppm benchmark probably shouldn’t be the main priority. Even at half that, they will have more than enough provided you have good circulation.

Beautiful tank by the way! I’m really jealous of your Java fern, I can’t grow them that big or green for the life me. I’m struggling to see any algae on your tank so it seems (at least from the picture) that you only need to do some minor changes to get you on track.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Koi