Affect of GH change on new fish

[TDFrank]

I have 55 and 10 gallon tanks. I found my well water had high nitrates around 45 so installed an RO system for all the drinking water and the auto tank refill. My RO system also remineralizes before it goes to the tanks. Now my GH is below that of the local fish store. The rest of the parameters including PH are OK. I find I need to drip acclimate any fish rather than just plop and drop or they all die. 
curious to know why the GH would be so rough on fish or am I missing something?

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/3/2024 at 8:43 AM, TDFrank said:

Now my GH is below that of the local fish store.

This shouldn't matter.  What matters is your system, your GH variation between the tanks themselves and the up/down variations over time.  Water in = water out for best success.
 

On 8/3/2024 at 8:43 AM, TDFrank said:

I find I need to drip acclimate any fish rather than just plop and drop or they all die. 
curious to know why the GH would be so rough on fish or am I missing something?

This is definitely interesting.  @Chick-In-Of-TheSea had a recent experience like this and the result of the analysis on what went wrong was lack of oxygenation when it comes to the drip method over time and how much the fish were pulling from the water during that time period.

When you say "there's a difference in GH" what kind of difference?  Are you talking a few PPM or are you talking extreme shifts?  If that is the case I would encourage you to change perspective entirely. The goal is to reduce stress as much as possible.  Any situation where you can ease the transition from one set of water parameters or match them is best.  I suspect you might be having issues from too many fish in the bag and the ammonia quickly killing off fish when you open the bag, oxygenation issues, and something like PH shift burning the gill plates on the fish causing major issues.

I would encourage you to review and follow this method for acclimation.  It is the "best" one I know of regarding acclimation using a drip and it's intended for shipping/receiving extremely sensitive species.

 

Quote

1. Step 1: Place your livestock into a container along with the water they were shipped with inside and allow enough room in the container for water to expand up later by 200%-400%.
2. Step 2: Add a drop of detoxifier such as Seachem Prime or another detoxifier. Also, consider adding a portable airstone to the water at this point.
3. Step 3: Start your dripper siphon and set the rate to flow with a constant stream (for fish) or dripping (for shrimp).
4. Step 4: Place the container on a flat location below the level of the aquarium water. Take the tubing without the airline valve into the aquarium water and fix it firmly with a suction cup. The other end with the airline valve should now be placed so it will deposit the water into that container.
5. Step 5: Allow the water to drip until it is doubled in volume. As long as the detoxifier was added this slow acclimation will help the shrimp adjust properly to their new home.  Optionally, you can continue the drip acclimation until the water volume has doubled again, especially if you have an airstone in the container.
6. Step 6: Remove the livestock from the container using your net, and then release them into their new tank.  Do not add this water to your tank!
7. Step 7: Observe the livestock to ensure they have acclimated properly.

 

Edited August 3 by nabokovfan87

[Mmiller2001]

GH looks way low.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:27 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea had a recent experience like this and the result of the analysis on what went wrong was lack of oxygenation when it comes to the drip method over time and how much the fish were pulling from the water during that time period.

I think ammonia was to blame. It happened fast. Although oxygenation could be the cause as well. Top of container was open though. Really hard to say, and I’ve successfully drip acclimated fish before using the same method. 

After that incident I plop & dropped fish several times from tank to tank and they were fine. HOWEVER, that’s just in my own fishroom. I don’t plop & drop newly adopted fish. I float them in the bag for 15 minutes, adding some tank water in the last 5 min, then I release them into a quarantine tank. The moment air hits the water they are in, it starts to become more dangerous, with ammonia/ammonium conversions happening. Also I do not buy fish online; I buy them locally, hence, the water is similar to mine.

Edited August 3 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/3/2024 at 9:37 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I think ammonia was to blame. It happened fast. Although oxygenation could be the cause as well. Top of container was open though. Really hard to say, and I’ve successfully drip acclimated fish before using the same method. 

Right! Sorry, I misspoke.  My brain thought ammonia shock but the words typed was oxygenation!

[TDFrank]

Thanks for the replies. I think I may have confused the issue. If I plop and drop the new fish will all die. If I drip acclimate they live much better. I am only 10 minutes from my aquarium shop where I buy fish. I have checked the water in the bag and my tank when adding and GH is the only significant difference and we are talking low hard from store to low medium hardness in my tank. There is no indication of ammonia in either and I acclimate about 45 minutes. The store ran every test known to man on my water in the tank and the RO. They were completely stumped. I’m just wondering if anyone else has trouble acclimating fiat between different KH and if I am maybe missing something else. 
 

[face]

What’s the TDS difference?

[TDFrank]

That I did not check but being RO I suspect mine is lower than the store by a fair amount. 

[face]

On 8/3/2024 at 10:44 PM, TDFrank said:

That I did not check but being RO I suspect mine is lower than the store by a fair amount. 

If it is that can easily kill fish osmotic shock is serious 

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/3/2024 at 9:43 AM, TDFrank said:

My RO system also remineralizes before it goes to the tanks

Explain how this works please.

[TDFrank]

After the purifying but before the UV light is a “filter like” cartridge that adds basic minerals to the water. (red label in image) I checked and all it adds is fish safe. That was one of the first things we checked thru the fish store. I still keep an eye on it but it rarely needs attention. The tank is heavy planted and so I add some thing back with easy green. 

Edited August 4 by TDFrank

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:24 AM, TDFrank said:

After the purifying but before the UV light is a “filter like” cartridge that adds basic minerals to the water. I checked and all it adds is fish safe. That was one of the first things we checked thru the fish store. I still keep an eye on it but it rarely needs attention. The tank is heavy planted and so I add some thing back with easy green. 

Fish safe? What does it add?

[TDFrank]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:10 AM, face said:

If it is that can easily kill fish osmotic shock is serious 

That’s an interesting idea worth looking at closer. All of my long term fish including fry born in the tank do well but I lost 5 new mollies almost over night. That’s what started this research. 
Thanks for the idea. 

[TDFrank]

On 8/4/2024 at 9:25 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Fish safe? What does it add?

• The RO membrane removes not only harmful pollutants but also a few helpful minerals. As a result, a standard 5 stage RO system produces slightly acidic water with a pH of 7. 0 or below. Alkaline mineral filter produces alkaline water with restored healthy minerals such as natural calcium, magnesium, and potassium ions, which ph.-balances the RO water

[Tony s]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:57 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Explain how this works please.

Mine also. It’s has cartridges that install next to the ro cartridges. Mine’s made more for drinking water. It adds a trace back in. K5 system from kinetico

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:41 AM, TDFrank said:

• The RO membrane removes not only harmful pollutants but also a few helpful minerals. As a result, a standard 5 stage RO system produces slightly acidic water with a pH of 7. 0 or below. Alkaline mineral filter produces alkaline water with restored healthy minerals such as natural calcium, magnesium, and potassium ions, which ph.-balances the RO water

It would be interesting to know how much of each. That said, the test strip showed a GH of just over 1 degree. That is way low for fish like mollies. I’d imagine the fish store is using plain tap water. I would add more Ca and Mg to the tank if you are looking to keep those kinds of fish. 
 

Also, if this was me, I would bypass the block that adds back minerals when making water for the tanks. This way you can add GH at known and exact ppm. Having unknowns makes issues harder to troubleshoot.

[Mmiller2001]

I looked at that block and it adds back 10 to 20ppm of TDS. If some of that is K, then your GH is probably less than 1.

I would consider this the issue. 

[TDFrank]

These are tank readings I took.

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/4/2024 at 8:21 AM, TDFrank said:

These are tank readings I took.

This is the tank water?

[TDFrank]

Yes

[Mmiller2001]

Test the RO water.

[TDFrank]

These are the RO results. 

[Mmiller2001]

Interesting. That water is fine, maybe just a bit soft for mollies in an ideal scenario. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:00 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Also, if this was me, I would bypass the block that adds back minerals when making water for the tanks. This way you can add GH at known and exact ppm. Having unknowns makes issues harder to troubleshoot.

Agreed. Make a mixing station with a water butt. It also means you can't really verify when the RO is needing replacement because your output is premixed with stuff.