Simple sump in mudskipper aquarium/paludarium

[ecarter]

Hello! I have a 40g breeder that I'm preparing for dwarf Indian mudskippers. I recently learned about sumps and wonder if (a) the following design makes any sense and (b) it's worth doing at all. I have heard mudskippers can be messy and water quality can be an issue, so I figured more water volume would be nice. Also, I can put the heater into the sump more easily than into the relatively shallow water of the display tank. 

In my design, the water moves from the display to the sump with a simple siphon. It is then drawn through the sump by the pump and directed back up into the display. I'm imagining the water return then runs off some rocks or something to create a sort of waterfall/stream.

If the pump dies/gets clogged, the siphon will get killed by a hole that's normally below the water level. If the siphon breaks or gets clogged, the pump will lose access to water by eventually causing itself to be out of the water in the sump.  

Am I missing something obvious here and risking flooding? Or am I possibly just completely overthinking this and the benefits can't outweigh the costs?

Thanks!

[Chris]

I'm not seeing anything glaringly wrong, but I'm no master tank designer either. 

I know @Zenzo has a tank with Indians, so he may be able to chime in on whether the extra water volume would be worth it or not.

[madmark285]

For this to work, the flow rate for the pump would have to be higher than the siphon and the pump would be constantly running dry. It would be noisy.

If the paludarium can hold all the water from the sump, you could try making a PVC overflow .   If you lose the siphon, your paludarium will fill up with water but no flooding danger.

Sumps are designed where the flow rate from the siphon tubes/pipes far exceed the water pump. An one inch PVC pipe with a 3' drop will have a siphon flow rate of ~800 gph. The problem I see with the DIY PVC overflows with a paludarium, low flow rates. Just not sure about this, the siphon has to pull the water up ~12" and over the tank. What may happen, the water would rise above the intake on the PVC overflow. As this happen, the flow rate increases. The system could balance out or constantly cycle up and down. 

The above DIY PVC overflow may be noisy, lots of gurgling sounds. What could happen, a siphon flow starts up and the water level drops below the intake breaking the siphon. This cycle would keep repeating. The goal of the Herbie drain system, we want a siphon flow from the tank to the sump as siphons produce little noisy. 

 

 

[ecarter]

@madmark285: Interesting, thank you. I set up a very rough version of this last night to play with it and definitely saw that the siphon was WAY faster than the return pump. Which makes lots of sense in retrospect. I'll look into the PVC overflow you linked--thanks for that. 

 

[tolstoy21]

I followed the below video for as a simple design. Plumbing the sump and adjusting flow rates is a different topic not covered here and will depend on how you plan to feed water to and from the sump. You will need a install a PVC gate valve to tweak the flow rate for the return line to the sump.

Additionally there are a number of options on for how you can configure the overflow/return --  https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/content/post/md-2017-08-durso-herbie-bean-animal-overflow#:~:text=Durso%2C Herbie%2C and BeanAnimal refer,see used on an aquarium.

 

Edited April 23 by tolstoy21

[madmark285]

I have built 4 sumps, I like making things. I am not an expert. If I was I would have to keep rebuilding them 🙂  But my recommendation, do it right the first time. 

I am working on my final and hopefully my last sump. I plan on doing a journal on this one.

My recommendation. 

• Buy a diamond hole saw and drill your tank (2 holes). Use the Herbie drain system with an 3/4" or 1" gate value. 
• For the sump walls, use 1/4 in. x 24 in. x 4 ft. White Reversible PVC Trim/Sheet ($29) or 1/2 in. x 24 in. x 4 ft. White Reversible PVC Trim/Sheet ($42). The 1/4" material can be cut with a razor blade (score&snap method). This material is easy to work with, glue together with heavy PVC cement. You can also drill holes in it.
• Use filter socks, I toss mine in the washing machine to clean them. For sock holders, PVC Sewer and Drain Coupling, 4 in. Hub x Hub work perfectly with 4" socks.
• Use an air powered fluidized bed filter with 2 gallons of K1 Bio Filter Media ($29). Fluidized bed are very effective and so easy to maintain, they are self cleaning. 
• You need an overflow box which can be built using 1/2" PVC. To create the weir, use 2 in. Stainless Finishing Nails ($3.15). 
• I would use a 20 gallon tank, get one when on sale from PetCo.

All you need in a sump is filter socks and a fluidized bed bio filter. If built right, the return pump chamber should hold ~10 gallons of water (using a 20 gallon tank). You can use the sump for water changes, drain and fill with tap water, let the heater warm it up.

 

 

[tolstoy21]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:47 AM, madmark285 said:

Use filter socks, I toss mine in the washing machine to clean them. For sock holders, PVC Sewer and Drain Coupling, 4 in. Hub x Hub work perfectly with 4" socks.

Agree 100% on the filter socks. I wished I had planned them into my sump design.

[madmark285]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:45 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I followed the below video for as a simple design

Instead of glass or acrylic, I recommend using cellular PVC listed above. So easy to cut and assemble and is reasonable priced. Glass is expensive these days. 

[Biotope Biologist]

Since you have a paludarium style tank you are going to want to get a glass drill and drill the bottom of the tank. Set up a pipe in the tank at the water level you want to be at. Then you will need a gate valve on the drain side to control how quickly water drains.

 

I just bought a nyos viper for my sump and it is a night and day difference between it and other return pumps. You really don’t need an expensive return pump just one that consistently pumps at the rate you desire.

 

the sump needs baffles too to control the flow of water. I bought a cheap 20g high during one of the many petco/petsmart aquarium sales for my sump and my baffle kit from ebay. The package got stolen and the seller was very nice and trusting to send me another before they got their ebay insurance kickback.

 

Anyway I drew a rough sketch of what I would do in a paludarium style sump. Also if you can get your hands on a 50g lowboy I highly recommend for low slung tanks! I really enjoy mine for my gobes. I can attach pics too of my sump to give ideas. They are really nice to have and provide excellent water quality.

 

Lastly just do some quick math to figure out how much overflow your sump can handle (I use the sump as the overflow) paludariums need not worry about flooding the display

Sketch:

My sump:

 

 

[tolstoy21]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:53 AM, madmark285 said:

Instead of glass or acrylic, I recommend using cellular PVC listed above. So easy to cut and assemble and is reasonable priced. Glass is expensive these days. 

I use a dollar-a-gallon 29g. This was a bunch of years back, but I don't remember the 2 glass dividers being super expensive. 

But, yeah use anything that will hold water, is easy to work with and inexpensive.

[madmark285]

This is my T-34 sump. I don't recommend this specific design, there is a better way to build one.  But the wall design is the same. 1/4 PVC with a box attached to it. Once glued together, it is quite strong.

I called it T-34 in honor of the Soviet WW2 tank, the wall for the water exit is sloped to eliminate the waterfall effect which is quite noisy. 

[tolstoy21]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:54 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

Since you have a paludarium style tank you are going to want to get a glass drill and drill the bottom of the tank.

Make sure the bottom pane is not tempered before drilling or else it will shatter into a million bits. This is easy to check with a pair of polarized sun glasses. Many tutorials online show how to do this.

[madmark285]

On 4/23/2024 at 10:54 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

drill the bottom of the tank

My 40 gallon breeder from Aqueon used tempered glass, no drilling the bottom. 

One more thing to consider. 

Build the sump right and you will always have it for other tanks if the paludarium doesn't work out or you get boring with it. 

[madmark285]

I rebuilt my T-34 sump with this design shown below. It is a complicated design because I like building things. The big change here, the water intakes and outtakes for the fluidized bed filter are on the bottom of the tank. This eliminated the dam of K1 media when using the top overflow designs. The filter socks go into the 4" pipe. Not shown here, I added a 4" coupling to the pipe. 

 

T

The air stones are magnetic mounts to the water intakes.

The panel label "top" was just in case I needed larger open for the water exit, it can be removed. I didn't need it, the box structure worked fine. 

I have one more sump to build (using a 29 gallon tank), it will be for a 75 gallon Mbuna tank. I like this design, it is working great. But i may do a more straightforward design ie:  sock chamber ->fluidized bed chamber->return pump chamber so other can use it if desired. 

FYI: Grizzly sells 1-5/16" Forstner Bit which is the OD of 1" PVC pipe, a great tool to have. I just drilled into the wall and slide in the 1" pipe. I use it to make an external overflow box. 

Edited April 23 by madmark285

[ecarter]

Lots of good advice, thank you! What's most convincing is the argument that I should just do this correctly the first time (and then have a working sump for later tanks). Unfortunately, I won't be drilling my tank (I think it's tempered) or going as in-depth into this as I need to, so for now, I'll just pass on the sump. Might return to this in the future. Thanks for all the input!

 

[madmark285]

I get a bit excited when I hear the word sump 🙂

Another option for a paludarium, build a PVC box which sits under the land section. You could build an overflow type box so the water level in the front section stays at the same level.

I was thinking about building a paludarium, one idea I had was an undergravel filter. The water would go thru the gravel then thru an overflow type box to a reservoir under the land section. If interested, let me know. I can draw something up.

 

[ecarter]

Sure, @madmark285, I'd be very interested in seeing your idea for an undergravel filter. I thought a little about it but was worried it would be too hard to clean. 

[madmark285]

On 4/23/2024 at 6:42 PM, ecarter said:

I'd be very interested in seeing your idea for an undergravel filter.

I started a new thread on this.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/23/2024 at 12:27 PM, ecarter said:

Unfortunately, I won't be drilling my tank (I think it's tempered)

Is the back glass tempered too? You don't have to plumb through the bottom. You can use an overflow box attached to the back of your aquarium. I have a slim one on mine. Slim overflow