Apisto Borelli Fry

[NOLANANO]

I have no idea how I did it but my Apisto Borelli have fry.  Seeing the mother on top of a rock with about 6-8 fry made me do a little research which taught me that she was most likely out in the open because the cave she chose to lay her eggs had too many openings and she couldn't properly defend her offspring. This makes sense since there were so few left.

Upon my research I also found that the fry most likely wouldn't live in my 75G community tank because there are too many predators. being a good fish owner, I ran to the store and got a breeder box and a turkey baster and sucked up the fry and put them in the breeder box. I also cooped up the mom and threw her in there too so she could be with her babies.  I think I messed up though because the babies are hiding under the plastic frame of the breeder box and I fear they will not make it.

I have purchased a coconut hut and fry food from ACO so that I can give the female(s) a better chance of protecting their fry next time. I don't have any other tanks so I can't remove any fish other than into the breeder box. I do have a few questions though:

1) What do I do now?

2) Was moving momma and her babies into the breeder box a good idea? They don't seem nearly as happy as when they were in general population.

3) Is there any shot the momma can raise fry in a community tank if I provide a proper cave for her to shelter her fry?

4) How did I get them to mate? I have read that Apistos aren't as easily bred as Rams but I have never had rams get beyond the eggs and I have Apisto fry within a month of getting them with zero effort on my part.

5) were the conditions just right and this is likely a one time thing or once they start breeding is it likely they will do it again?

6) If I do get fry to live, what's the going rate to a LFS?

@anewbie @Guppysnail @Lennie @tolstoy21 tagging a few people that I think have experience with Apistos.

Edited April 17 by NOLANANO

[tolstoy21]

1. Feed them! Find foods small enough for them to eat. Frozen baby brine shrimp are easy to find in many pet stores.
2. I would move the mother back to the tank. She'll be unhappy in the breeder box and won't really be able to care for the fry in a meaningful way in the box.
3. I wouldn't put the fry back into the community tank if you want them all to survive. 
4. The magic of nature! Sometimes fish will just do their thing without you knowing or doing anything. Other times, you really have to usher along the process.
5. The conditions were just right. But the size of 'just right' is not a tiny, hard-to-hit bullseye. A lot of times its a more forgiving range or parameters. My guess is they will breed again.
6. Hard to say. In regards to LFSs, I've gotten everything from 'Go Away!', to 'well take em off your hands for free', to store credit or $10 a piece. In terms of cash or trade-in value, it would be roughly 1/4 what the store would sell them for. For apistos, typically you sell them in male/female pairs.  

Good luck raising them and have fun!

[NOLANANO]

On 4/17/2024 at 12:57 PM, tolstoy21 said:

1. Feed them! Find foods small enough for them to eat. Frozen baby brine shrimp are easy to find in many pet stores.
2. I would move the mother back to the tank. She'll be unhappy in the breeder box and won't really be able to care for the fry in a meaningful way in the box.
3. I wouldn't put the fry back into the community tank if you want them all to survive. 
4. The magic of nature! Sometimes fish will just do their thing without you knowing or doing anything. Other times, you really have to usher along the process.
5. The conditions were just right. But the size of 'just right' is not a tiny, hard-to-hit bullseye. A lot of times its a more forgiving range or parameters. My guess is they will breed again.
6. Hard to say. In regards to LFSs, I've gotten everything from 'Go Away!', to 'well take em off your hands for free', to store credit or $10 a piece. In terms of cash or trade-in value, it would be roughly 1/4 what the store would sell them for. For apistos, typically you sell them in male/female pairs.  

Good luck raising them and have fun!

Thanks for the information!

For number 3, I was more referring to next time I see fry.  If I put a coconut cave in the tank when I see a female in breeding colors, is it possible for her to raise the fry in the tank?  I ask this because I am not sure whether or not I harmed the fry when sucking them up in the turkey baster and putting them in the breeder box.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/17/2024 at 2:03 PM, NOLANANO said:

Thanks for the information!

For number 3, I was more referring to next time I see fry.  If I put a coconut cave in the tank when I see a female in breeding colors, is it possible for her to raise the fry in the tank?  I ask this because I am not sure whether or not I harmed the fry when sucking them up in the turkey baster and putting them in the breeder box.

Keeping the fry in the tank runs the risk of 2 things:

1) The mother killing other fish in your aquarium while protecting the fry
2) The fry being eaten by other fish

I use a turkey baster on fry all the time. If you're gentle with the fry, they'll be fine.

[anewbie]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:47 AM, NOLANANO said:

I have no idea how I did it but my Apisto Borelli have fry.  Seeing the mother on top of a rock with about 6-8 fry made me do a little research which taught me that she was most likely out in the open because the cave she chose to lay her eggs had too many openings and she couldn't properly defend her offspring. This makes sense since there were so few left.

Upon my research I also found that the fry most likely wouldn't live in my 75G community tank because there are too many predators. being a good fish owner, I ran to the store and got a breeder box and a turkey baster and sucked up the fry and put them in the breeder box. I also cooped up the mom and threw her in there too so she could be with her babies.  I think I messed up though because the babies are hiding under the plastic frame of the breeder box and I fear they will not make it.

I have purchased a coconut hut and fry food from ACO so that I can give the female(s) a better chance of protecting their fry next time. I don't have any other tanks so I can't remove any fish other than into the breeder box. I do have a few questions though:

1) What do I do now?

2) Was moving momma and her babies into the breeder box a good idea? They don't seem nearly as happy as when they were in general population.

3) Is there any shot the momma can raise fry in a community tank if I provide a proper cave for her to shelter her fry?

4) How did I get them to mate? I have read that Apistos aren't as easily bred as Rams but I have never had rams get beyond the eggs and I have Apisto fry within a month of getting them with zero effort on my part.

5) were the conditions just right and this is likely a one time thing or once they start breeding is it likely they will do it again?

6) If I do get fry to live, what's the going rate to a LFS?

@anewbie @Guppysnail @Lennie @tolstoy21 tagging a few people that I think have experience with Apistos.

coconut shell has no value here; small piece of driftwood or cholla; floating plants (hornworth, pearlweed, frogbit, ...). For the first week or so the best option for the frys are live baby brine shrimp - the movement helps trigger 'eat me' reflex. After that fine food but use that turkey-blaster to suck out uneaten food. Putting them with the mom is fine but she is probably scared out of her wits so she has told the frys to hide. 

[NOLANANO]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:15 PM, anewbie said:

coconut shell has no value here;

Would it be of value if I see a yellow female in the future? I am trying to figure out a way to get a better survival rate than 5-10 fry before I notice them and can put them in the breeder box.

On another note: Do I need to get a 10G tank for once they outgrow the breeder box or can I release them into the community tank at that point. The Apistos are the largest fish I own so I don't think they'd get eaten but maybe bullied?

Also is frozen Daphnia small enough for fry? just curious.

Edited April 17 by NOLANANO

[Lennie]

Hello there, 

I raised 4 batches of GBR babies but never raised apisto babies. I only have limited experience with triple red cacatuoides and erythruras

borellis are one of the easiest apistos and most prolific from what I remember based on the aquarist podcast. 6 fry sounds like majority of them didnt make it already. Also many popular apistos can breed in a regular tap water. I know an apisto breeder in person that even works with quite rare species and he mentioned that he breeds many popular apistos in tap water, like panduro, cacatuoides, hongsloi, trifasciata, inka, agassizi. He is an apisto only breeder and he does this as a full time job. So yea, that explains random borellii breeding part. But ofcourse there are more needy apistos with certain requirements

 

I think it is pointless to move their mom to the breeding box. Either let them stay together in the tank or just move babies and be their mom yourself

Apistos can be very aggressive towards other fish in the same tank when breeding occurs. I adopted my friend’s panda cories because his triple red cacatuoides trio decided to make one cory blind in a 100cm tank. So yea, I wouldnt call any fish safe with a fish that wants to protect their babies

 

Frozen daphnia is not small enough for fry to eat. I tried raising my fry on vinegar eels until they get big enough to eat bbs but it failed hard. Micron food until they eat bbs, and live bbs as soon as possible seems to be the key. Be careful, micron foods release ammonia super fast

Edited April 17 by Lennie

[NOLANANO]

On 4/17/2024 at 2:58 PM, Lennie said:

apistos can be very aggressive towards other fish in the same tank when breeding occurs.

Prior to me taking the fry and mom out of gen pop, the mom was aggressive toward any fish that came too close but she was not able to go after any for longer than it took to back them off because she needed to get back to her babies.  I did have a rummynose turn up dead recently but they are over 2 years old so I chalked it up to regular attrition but maybe the mom killed it for getting to close.

I will just release mom back into the tank when I get home for work and try to keep the remaining babies alive on my own.

 

I have a sample pack of the below food so I will try to feed them that until the ACO fry food comes in. I don't have a brine shrimp hatchery or eggs. Maybe I will try to better prepare for the next batch of fry.

LEGIT. Fish Food - #1 Best Nano Fish Food (legitfishfood.com)

[anewbie]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:34 PM, NOLANANO said:

Would it be of value if I see a yellow female in the future? I am trying to figure out a way to get a better survival rate than 5-10 fry before I notice them and can put them in the breeder box.

On another note: Do I need to get a 10G tank for once they outgrow the breeder box or can I release them into the community tank at that point. The Apistos are the largest fish I own so I don't think they'd get eaten but maybe bullied?

Also is frozen Daphnia small enough for fry? just curious.

Just because she is yellow doesn't mean she has frys; if you want to breed borelli i'd recommend a 20 long with just the borelli and maybe a few dithers like pencil fishes or ember tetra.

Frozen baby daphnia might be  small enough as various small dry food; the issue is the first couple of weeks the frys will respond better to moving food hence live food tends to work better.

 

Edited April 17 by anewbie

[Lennie]

On 4/17/2024 at 11:08 PM, NOLANANO said:

Prior to me taking the fry and mom out of gen pop, the mom was aggressive toward any fish that came too close but she was not able to go after any for longer than it took to back them off because she needed to get back to her babies.  I did have a rummynose turn up dead recently but they are over 2 years old so I chalked it up to regular attrition but maybe the mom killed it for getting to close.

I will just release mom back into the tank when I get home for work and try to keep the remaining babies alive on my own.

 

I have a sample pack of the below food so I will try to feed them that until the ACO fry food comes in. I don't have a brine shrimp hatchery or eggs. Maybe I will try to better prepare for the next batch of fry.

LEGIT. Fish Food - #1 Best Nano Fish Food (legitfishfood.com)

Live bbs is hands down the best

As long as fish start eating live bbs, go for it. If apisto babies can eat it directly, I would directly feed it. None of the fish I intentionally tried breeding, except guppies, were able to eat live bbs on day 1.

If it is not the case, then I start with vinegar eels and micron fry food. Vinegar eels stay alive for a good while unlike live bbs in freshwater. So between water changes of micron food(as it goes bad and release ammonia as low as 30 mins around 0.5mg/l) I dose vinegar eels to clean water in case they would like to hunt live food or if it interests any better than micron

 

but live bbs is the easiest and the best. If apistos eat it on day one, you need nothing else really. Hatching is super easy. The problems with artemia is, it loses a lot of its nutrition in 48 hours around half if I remember correctly, so you gotta feed asap. So small number of fry means you need to hatch daily for a small amount. Also it doesnt last alive long in freshwater

Edited April 18 by Lennie

[NOLANANO]

On 4/17/2024 at 5:11 PM, anewbie said:

ust because she is yellow doesn't mean she has frys;

Yes but doesn't it mean she is preparing to drop eggs and entice a male to fertilize them? In my mind, I would put the coconut hut in the tank and then she would claim it as she is preparing for fry.  Maybe I put the hut in the tank at all times?

On 4/17/2024 at 5:11 PM, anewbie said:

if you want to breed borelli i'd recommend a 20 long with just the borelli and maybe a few dithers like pencil fishes or ember tetra.

I wouldn't say I am necessarily trying to breed the apistos but if they are gonna breed, I want to give the mom a better chance at raising her fry than how this first round went.

 

The sad news is the fry are all dead. I am not sure exactly where it went wrong but I think its because I couldn't find a low enough flow spot in my tank to hang the breeder box. My spray bar makes the top have decent flow and I think the flow killed them. IDK, I am grasping at straws.

[anewbie]

On 4/18/2024 at 8:15 AM, NOLANANO said:

Yes but doesn't it mean she is preparing to drop eggs and entice a male to fertilize them? In my mind, I would put the coconut hut in the tank and then she would claim it as she is preparing for fry.  Maybe I put the hut in the tank at all times?

I wouldn't say I am necessarily trying to breed the apistos but if they are gonna breed, I want to give the mom a better chance at raising her fry than how this first round went.

 

The sad news is the fry are all dead. I am not sure exactly where it went wrong but I think its because I couldn't find a low enough flow spot in my tank to hang the breeder box. My spray bar makes the top have decent flow and I think the flow killed them. IDK, I am grasping at straws.

Breeder box is small; did you feed them food they would eat (live bbs is best bet); did you remove all uneaten food so that no ammonia would build up from decaying food - anyway i'm not sure how large this breeder box is and what you did but i can say that frys are very delicate and sensitive to water quality et all.

When it comes to breeding borelli coconut huts sometime works but sometime the female prefer other areas. Anyway she should breed again and you will have another try. Good luck.

 

[NOLANANO]

On 4/18/2024 at 2:21 PM, anewbie said:

Breeder box is small; did you feed them food they would eat (live bbs is best bet); did you remove all uneaten food so that no ammonia would build up from decaying food - anyway i'm not sure how large this breeder box is and what you did but i can say that frys are very delicate and sensitive to water quality et all.

When it comes to breeding borelli coconut huts sometime works but sometime the female prefer other areas. Anyway she should breed again and you will have another try. Good luck.

 

Its the standard mesh breeder box, not very big.  I don't have BBS but will get them for next time. We will see if the coconut hut works.  a few more questions if you don't mind:

1) How often to they breed? Is there anything I can do (water changes, etc.) to influence it?

2) I have 3 females and 3 males. Only one of the females turned yellow and laid eggs. Will they all take turns or will just the most dominate female lay eggs? From what I can tell, they don't pair like Rams. The female turned yellow and claimed the cave and then the 3 males all competed for the ability to mate with her. it wasn't clear who she favored.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/18/2024 at 8:15 AM, NOLANANO said:

Yes but doesn't it mean she is preparing to drop eggs and entice a male to fertilize them? In my mind, I would put the coconut hut in the tank and then she would claim it as she is preparing for fry.  Maybe I put the hut in the tank at all times?

Mine aren't borelli... but my hongsloi female is always in some variation of bright yellow and black.  Not always super brilliant, but she is VERY very rarely not in those showy covers.  And she's never had a successful spawn.

[NOLANANO]

On 4/18/2024 at 3:37 PM, jwcarlson said:

she is VERY very rarely not in those showy covers.  And she's never had a successful spawn.

This is what I'm talking about. I have no idea how I made these guys spawn. I had the guy at my LFS tell me he has kept apistos for 3 decades and has never had a spawn...

[NikkiRae]

That is really cool! I have no advice on keeping them alive but through research, I have found that they have a really big range in price depending on the colors, size, shipping. Anywhere from $15 to $100. ($100 is A-LOT). $30 is probably a good number... I think.

[jwcarlson]

To be clear, mine spawn.  I would guess the guy at the LFS has too.  BUT, they are sneaky spawners, in my experience.  Mine spawn, but the eggs can't hatch because *some water issue even if it's soft enough*.  So now I've eliminated all caves except one that I can see into.  Otherwise, you have to try to spotlight them to see in the cave.