HELP NEEDED! pH issues

[drm315]

I'm new to the forum - thanks for adding me! I will try to make a long story short! I've been having major issues with a 20g tank of mine. Multiple deaths - cherry red shrimp and a dwarf cory. I finally deduced after a LOT of testing that it was coming down to my pH and KH... I can get into that later, but today I tested my tap water pH again and it was reading about 7.0-7.2. I left the capped test tube on the counter while I did other chores. Within an hour (MAX) the water had turned clear! Is that normal? It doesn't seem like it would be and shows how unstable my pH is due to my very low KH (0-1) from the tap and in my tank. This seems to be a brand new problem coming from my tap water because I have not had this problem in the past with water changes.

[Tony s]

It can turn clear. The reagents can deteriorate over time. Better would be to find a clean bucket, put the water in there, and test that water after it has been sitting. Leaving the top off so it can theoretically breathe. That way you would have fresh reagent after each test. I would feel much more comfortable doing it that way.  You could even do multiple tests over time. If you were very concerned, you could drop an airstone in it to keep the water moving and not stagnant 

[TOtrees]

test strips for the win. they make regular or repeated testing a whole lot easier. 

Something that is worth knowing/understanding/accepting about parameters: the goal is rarely to nail down exact values, whether it's for pH, hardness, nitrates, ammonia or whatever. The goal is to track changes (if any) over time, and to know whether what you're seeing is okay, critical, or something in between. I use 4 scores or classifications here, no matter what I'm testing:

- ideal/fine

- elevated, but no action warranted

- elevated, intervention may be required

- it's really bad and you need to take steps now

Sometimes you can't tell the difference between the 2 middle classes, that's okay. Are there symptoms/sick fish? Can you retest? 

Have the fish and shrimp deaths been occurring rapidly, or over many weeks? How long has the tank been running? 

[drm315]

Quote

Sometimes you can't tell the difference between the 2 middle classes, that's okay. Are there symptoms/sick fish? Can you retest? 

Have the fish and shrimp deaths been occurring rapidly, or over many weeks? How long has the tank been running? 

The deaths started after a significant water chabne and then more throughout the last week. I didn't think to test pH immediately because it has never been a problem in the past. It was after daily deaths of shrimp that I decided to start checking parameters. Everything was ok except pH. Didn't have a KH/GH test kit so I got one. That's when I learned my pH in my tank was fluctuated greatly during the day and I have 0-1 KH, which means my pH is unstable due to the low KH. My questioin NOW is what is going on with the pH staight out of my tap? I just tested it again and it comes out of the tap around 7.2. I watched over a 5 minute span while it was in the test tube turn from 7.2 to perfectly clear. That seems very strange! I have a test tube from my tank that I tested this morning - hours ago - and it is still blue/green in color (7.2-7.4). Why would my tap water change to clear THAT quickly?

[johnnyxxl]

On 4/15/2024 at 9:18 AM, drm315 said:

I'm new to the forum - thanks for adding me! I will try to make a long story short! I've been having major issues with a 20g tank of mine. Multiple deaths - cherry red shrimp and a dwarf cory. I finally deduced after a LOT of testing that it was coming down to my pH and KH... I can get into that later, but today I tested my tap water pH again and it was reading about 7.0-7.2. I left the capped test tube on the counter while I did other chores. Within an hour (MAX) the water had turned clear! Is that normal? It doesn't seem like it would be and shows how unstable my pH is due to my very low KH (0-1) from the tap and in my tank. This seems to be a brand new problem coming from my tap water because I have not had this problem in the past with water changes.

What you want to do is set some water from the tap out overnight and test that.  This will get you a better idea what you have for pH from the tap.  Then you can figure out what you need to buffer with.  I believe most buffer with crushed coral 🪸 

[johnnyxxl]

On 4/15/2024 at 11:24 AM, drm315 said:

The deaths started after a significant water chabne and then more throughout the last week. I didn't think to test pH immediately because it has never been a problem in the past. It was after daily deaths of shrimp that I decided to start checking parameters. Everything was ok except pH. Didn't have a KH/GH test kit so I got one. That's when I learned my pH in my tank was fluctuated greatly during the day and I have 0-1 KH, which means my pH is unstable due to the low KH. My questioin NOW is what is going on with the pH staight out of my tap? I just tested it again and it comes out of the tap around 7.2. I watched over a 5 minute span while it was in the test tube turn from 7.2 to perfectly clear. That seems very strange! I have a test tube from my tank that I tested this morning - hours ago - and it is still blue/green in color (7.2-7.4). Why would my tap water change to clear THAT quickly?

Your test will break down after it's been added to the water.  

[jwcarlson]

I think the first step I'd take is to take a small amount of water (a quart or so) and aerate it overnight like @johnnyxxl mentioned above.  If you know it's 7.2 out of the tap that's great, but water can and does "age" or degas depending on your particular water.  My water, for example, comes out of the tap at 7.0 and ages up to 8.2/8.3 after aerating it overnight.  The goal, here, is to see if you're dumping in vastly different water than is already in your tank.  

That said, I don't know if what you're having trouble with is caused by water changes or pH shift.  But this is an important data point.  

[drm315]

On 4/15/2024 at 12:44 PM, jwcarlson said:

I think the first step I'd take is to take a small amount of water (a quart or so) and aerate it overnight like @johnnyxxl mentioned above.  If you know it's 7.2 out of the tap that's great, but water can and does "age" or degas depending on your particular water.  My water, for example, comes out of the tap at 7.0 and ages up to 8.2/8.3 after aerating it overnight.  The goal, here, is to see if you're dumping in vastly different water than is already in your tank.  

That said, I don't know if what you're having trouble with is caused by water changes or pH shift.  But this is an important data point.  

I completely understand what y'all are saying and I will try to get hold of another water pump today so I can aerate some bucket water overnight. What I've been trying to say is that I think there MUST BE vast differences in the water I'm putting in straight from the tap because my tap water has NEVER changed from neutral to clear in five minutes in the test tube. I ordered some crushed coral that came today and I added a few tablespoons to my filter to see if that will keep the pH I've established in my tank stable. I used about 1/8 tsp of baking soda to get to a neutral pH in my tank, but read the crushed coral will help the KH come up and stabilize the pH during future water changes. I know the name of the game is stability, but the end of last week I was literally dealing with 0 readings for my pH and KH in my tank.

[drm315]

On 4/15/2024 at 12:44 PM, jwcarlson said:

I think the first step I'd take is to take a small amount of water (a quart or so) and aerate it overnight like @johnnyxxl mentioned above.  If you know it's 7.2 out of the tap that's great, but water can and does "age" or degas depending on your particular water.  My water, for example, comes out of the tap at 7.0 and ages up to 8.2/8.3 after aerating it overnight.  The goal, here, is to see if you're dumping in vastly different water than is already in your tank.  

That said, I don't know if what you're having trouble with is caused by water changes or pH shift.  But this is an important data point.  

I completely understand what y'all are saying and I will try to get hold of another water pump today so I can aerate some bucket water overnight. What I've been trying to say is that I think there MUST BE vast differences in the water I'm putting in straight from the tap because my tap water has NEVER changed from neutral to clear in five minutes in the test tube. I ordered some crushed coral that came today and I added a few tablespoons to my filter to see if that will keep the pH I've established in my tank stable. I used about 1/8 tsp of baking soda to get to a neutral pH in my tank, but read the crushed coral will help the KH come up and stabilize the pH during future water changes. I know the name of the game is stability, but the end of last week I was literally dealing with 0 readings for my pH and KH in my tank.

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/15/2024 at 10:58 AM, drm315 said:

neutral to clear

You are fixated on this. When the test time period is over, it’s over. It wouldn’t matter if it turned hot pink. 
 

pH fluctuation is not an indicator of stability, pH fluctuation is completely normal and is related to O2 and CO2 concentrations dissolved in the water. Nitrification plays a role here too as it’s a weak acid at the end result.

0 to 1dKH, and maintaining 0 to 1dKH is stable. This is the single biggest misinformation in the hobby that 0dKH is bad in some way. It’s not…period. 
 

Do smaller water changes for while. Maybe once a month as well. Only do a change if it’s absolutely needed. Shrimp take a generation or 2 to become indestructible.

[JoeQ]

Put the testing aside, it sounds to me like faulty test results for one reason or another.

What does the water feel like when you put your arm in the tank?

[TOtrees]

just checking something i don't think has been asked or confirmed, are you using untreated tap water? do you have a water softener? you're not using bottled or RO water or anything like that? 

[face]

Even a ph of 4 or so in an api yes won’t look clear it just just turns yellow as for if 0kh is bad I’ve had that for years and never had a problem my ph goa from 8 to about 6.5 after it off gases and then sits there for weeks even with driftwood

[Airborne 82nd]

I have the API 5n1 test strips and the API master test kit. both new and fresh. The ph did not read the same Master 7.6 strips 6 so I took both back to the store and some of my tank and tap water to be tested the strips were off. Not saying they all are but mine were. Also when I test nitrates it WILL get darker red the longer it goes past the 5 minute mark this is normal. I now use a stop watch when testing. I trust the liquid test more. To each his own. In the second vid look at his nitrate results this is what happen to me but with Ph. I take water with me every time I go to the fish store they test it for free.

 

[drm315]

On 4/15/2024 at 2:09 PM, TOtrees said:

just checking something i don't think has been asked or confirmed, are you using untreated tap water? do you have a water softener? you're not using bottled or RO water or anything like that? 

Water from the tap, no softener, not bottled or RO. I treat my tap water with Prime before adding to the tank.

For reference - I have another 20 g tank that I just tested. It's pH is about 7.4-7.6, but the KH is 3. 

 

[drm315]

Update - still having shrimp deaths today...I'm now down to 4 shrimp. I can definitely say now that the deaths appear to be molting related. The shrimp that died yesterday had the classic ring of death and I just found another a few mintutes ago dying whilr trying to molt. This is heartbreaking to watch! My current water parameters are pH 7.6-7.8, KH 1, GH 9, ammonia 0, nitrate 0, nitrite 0. These are all the tests I have. I did leave some of my tap water out overnight and got a pH of 7.6, KH 1 - didn't test for GH on that one.