Bypass

[Cjbear087]

Just found the bypass valve for my water softener and got 2 questions:

1. Will the valve bypass my hot water aswell or just my cold water?

2. How long should the run the water after bypassing to get rid of all the softener water in the pipes?

Thanks.

[Airborne 82nd]

1 It will depend where it is installed. You could try this.  Test both hot and cold water if they both test the same then they are both going through your system  then put it in bypass run hot and cold to flush out your lines. Run cold water until you see a change in your water test. Same thing for hot water but this will take longer because you will have to flush out the hot water heater tank.

Airborne

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:20 AM, Airborne 82nd said:

1 It will depend where it is installed. You could try this.  Test both hot and cold water if they both test the same then they are both going through your system  then put it in bypass run hot and cold to flush out your lines. Run cold water until you see a change in your water test. Same thing for hot water but this will take longer because you will have to flush out the hot water heater tank.

Airborne

Will the hardness gradually change or as soon as I detect any GH above 0ppm does that mean all the softener water is out?

[johnnyxxl]

Normally water softener is installed before the hot water tank.  This isn't a hard fast rule but it's normally done because you don't want the calcium and lime scale to build up inside the tank.

 

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 2:15 PM, johnnyxxl said:

Normally water softener is installed before the hot water tank.  This isn't a hard fast rule but it's normally done because you don't want the calcium and lime scale to build up inside the tank.

 

So that means the hot water SHOULD come out hard with the bypass?

[johnnyxxl]

After you drain the water tank

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 2:18 PM, johnnyxxl said:

After you drain the water tank

By running the tap?

[johnnyxxl]

Correct, or you can drain from the tank directly.  We should drain water heater tanks annually anyway.  Gets rid of sediment in the bottom 

[lefty o]

the bypass valve will be on the softeners head, so it will bypass everything. as for the hot water, you would have to run out all the water from the water heater, that would be nuts, but the rest of your pipes just run it for a minute or two.

Edited April 11 by lefty o

[jwcarlson]

In order to get bypassed hot water you'll have to drain your hot water tank and then let it heat back up while the softener is bypassed.

This isn't a reasonable thing to do as you're going to be flushing say 40-50 gallons of hot water down the drain which will take about 15 minutes at normal household pressures and then waiting... an hour?  more?  For the water to heat up, but could be faster because you don't need full temp hot water for a water change.

And that's only if the bypass valve is installed at the softener itself.  If it's something plumbed in separately it might not be possible to bypass to the water heater at all.  You have to trace out the piping.

 

@Cjbear087 I know you want discus, but I would suggest making sure you've got all this ironed out before you invest a bunch of money on discus without a good plan to care for them.  I still say that the easiest and best solution is to get something as simple as a plastic garbage can and age/preheat your water in that as opposed to monkeying around with trying to do what you're proposing.  There's no shot that you'll be able to keep up with this type of routine long-term.  Make it easier on yourself... set yourself up for success.  It's not particularly expensive to set up an aging barrel.  The cost of roughly 1 or 2 discus.  That's cheap in the long run compared to flushing $500+ down the drain when you inadvertently run out of hot water, for instance, and pump 55 degree water into your discus tank.

Edited April 11 by jwcarlson

[johnnyxxl]

On 4/11/2024 at 10:10 AM, jwcarlson said:

In order to get bypassed hot water you'll have to drain your hot water tank and then let it heat back up while the softener is bypassed.

This isn't a reasonable thing to do as you're going to be flushing say 40-50 gallons of hot water down the drain which will take about 15 minutes at normal household pressures and then waiting... an hour?  more?  For the water to heat up, but could be faster because you don't need full temp hot water for a water change.

And that's only if the bypass valve is installed at the softener itself.  If it's something plumbed in separately it might not be possible to bypass to the water heater at all.  You have to trace out the piping.

 

@Cjbear087 I know you want discus, but I would suggest making sure you've got all this ironed out before you invest a bunch of money on discus without a good plan to care for them.  I still say that the easiest and best solution is to get something as simple as a plastic garbage can and age/preheat your water in that as opposed to monkeying around with trying to do what you're proposing.  There's no shot that you'll be able to keep up with this type of routine long-term.  Make it easier on yourself... set yourself up for success.  It's not particularly expensive to set up an aging barrel.  The cost of roughly 1 or 2 discus.  That's cheap in the long run compared to flushing $500+ down the drain when you inadvertently run out of hot water, for instance, and pump 55 degree water into your discus tank.

Honestly if this is what he is after he might want to add a small tankless water heater near the bypass as a separate line smaller units aren't that much money and really reasonably easy to install with PEX lines

[jwcarlson]

On 4/11/2024 at 10:10 AM, johnnyxxl said:

Honestly if this is what he is after he might want to add a small tankless water heater near the bypass as a separate line smaller units aren't that much money and really reasonably easy to install with PEX lines

I have been pretty close to doing just that as it would do two things.  First, it would eliminate my pre-heating, but I am not 100% convinced that it will help with my current need to age my water.  Higher temperature should help it degas more quickly, but I do not know if that's more or less instantaneous.  I've been planning on running some experiments with cold water by running it through a quick degasing setup.  They sell these things commercially, but there's nothing much to them.  It's like three buckets in a vertical line and the water sprays down into the top bucket and drains through the bottom to the other two buckets.  The material in the buckets (which look a ton like K2 media) just makes the water aerate and degas the 'traped' CO2.  Rocks would probably work just fine.  

Second, it would eliminate quite a few kilowatts of electric heaters that are almost always on either actively heating water or holding at temp until I need it.  Gas is a more efficient way of heating water.

So my plan, I think, would be to add a gas fired on-demand water heater piped over above a barrel that would spray down through a showerhead or something and drain down to the bucket and then pump it back out through a hose. 

My current hang-up is that we are actively trying to move out of this house and eventually, if we hit our goal of moving out to the country, then I'm likely out of the hobby at least temporarily.  Other things I want to do when I have the land to do it.  

But that's pretty elaborate.  For one tank it doesn't make much sense.

Edited April 11 by jwcarlson

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 3:10 PM, jwcarlson said:

In order to get bypassed hot water you'll have to drain your hot water tank and then let it heat back up while the softener is bypassed.

This isn't a reasonable thing to do as you're going to be flushing say 40-50 gallons of hot water down the drain which will take about 15 minutes at normal household pressures and then waiting... an hour?  more?  For the water to heat up, but could be faster because you don't need full temp hot water for a water change.

And that's only if the bypass valve is installed at the softener itself.  If it's something plumbed in separately it might not be possible to bypass to the water heater at all.  You have to trace out the piping.

 

@Cjbear087 I know you want discus, but I would suggest making sure you've got all this ironed out before you invest a bunch of money on discus without a good plan to care for them.  I still say that the easiest and best solution is to get something as simple as a plastic garbage can and age/preheat your water in that as opposed to monkeying around with trying to do what you're proposing.  There's no shot that you'll be able to keep up with this type of routine long-term.  Make it easier on yourself... set yourself up for success.  It's not particularly expensive to set up an aging barrel.  The cost of roughly 1 or 2 discus.  That's cheap in the long run compared to flushing $500+ down the drain when you inadvertently run out of hot water, for instance, and pump 55 degree water into your discus tank.

Yeah lol honestly that’s what I’m resorting to. The heater and aging plan sounds like a good idea. Maybe not super convenient, but defo the simplest.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:00 AM, Cjbear087 said:

Yeah lol honestly that’s what I’m resorting to. The heater and aging plan sounds like a good idea. Maybe not super convenient, but defo the simplest.

Honestly, once you get into the routine of large water changes using it, there isn't that much of a difference compared to just turning a faucet on.  And, the way I do most of my water changes... I almost don't have enough water to overflow anything or at least not much.  So even if I forget to set the timer for refilling the discus tank... it only has enough water to fill the tank because of how "fine tuned" I have the system down.  Compared to walking away with the faucet filling it... that's bad news.  

I think you'll be MUCH happier setting up a barrel and doing it that way compared to screwing around with this bypass/water heating shenanigans.  Some of the trash cans even have dollies that you can buy and roll them around if that's something that would help.  

Edited April 11 by jwcarlson

[madmark285]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:00 PM, Cjbear087 said:

The heater and aging plan sounds like a good idea.

After your Discus have grown out, you may only have to do a water change once a week. So fill up the garbage can right after a water change and let it adjust to room temperature. Turn on the electric heater the night before (or early morning) the next water change.

Easy and energy efficient. 

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:04 PM, jwcarlson said:

Honestly, once you get into the routine of large water changes using it, there isn't that much of a difference compared to just turning a faucet on.  And, the way I do most of my water changes... I almost don't have enough water to overflow anything or at least not much.  So even if I forget to set the timer for refilling the discus tank... it only has enough water to fill the tank because of how "fine tuned" I have the system down.  Compared to walking away with the faucet filling it... that's bad news.  

I think you'll be MUCH happier setting up a barrel and doing it that way compared to screwing around with this bypass/water heating shenanigans.  Some of the trash cans even have dollies that you can buy and roll them around if that's something that would help.  

It’s more of the problem that my tank will be upstairs and the only tap that isn’t connected to the softener is downstairs. So really it seems the only way would be the bypass unless I set up a really long tube from my downstairs tap to upstairs which tbf would work but at that point the bypass with a heater would just be easier imo 

[madmark285]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:04 PM, jwcarlson said:

I think you'll be MUCH happier setting up a barrel

Totally agree. I would put the effort in finding a permanent spot for the barrel and running a hose to it. For the hose, put some type of value on it so you can turn it off at the barrel then turn off at the source. Set up right and you can do a 30% water change on a 75 gallon tank in about 10 minutes. 

 

 

[jwcarlson]

There's no scenario where the bypass to the water heater would be easier.  Unless you're buying gallon jugs of water at the store and hauling them in.  

If I were you, I'd put a barrel down by the basement faucet that's already bypassed.  And then buy a pump to pump the water back upstairs.  To make it easier, I ran a hose up/out through the wall and it's permanently hooked up.  Not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but if you locate the tank right, it's not particularly noticeable or anything.  You're not going to want to do the bucket method, so you're probably going to need a pump anyway.  The pumps aren't too bad, I think mine was about $60.

[madmark285]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:12 PM, Cjbear087 said:

It’s more of the problem that my tank will be upstairs and the only tap that isn’t connected to the softener is downstairs.

Is downstair the basement or the first floor of your house? 

Something to think about. When or if you break down the tank, the wall behind the tank will have to be re-painted and/or repaired. So cutting a hole in the drywall (lathe&plaster would be harder) to run a hose is not a big deal, just save the piece of drywall. More info on your house would be helpful.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:15 AM, madmark285 said:

Totally agree. I would put the effort in finding a permanent spot for the barrel and running a hose to it. For the hose, put some type of value on it so you can turn it off at the barrel then turn off at the source. Set up right and you can do a 30% water change on a 75 gallon tank in about 10 minutes. 

 

 

Yep!  The constraint becomes how fast the water drains.  And if you either pump the water out or if you're draining down to a utility sink 12 feet lower than the tank... it drains pretty quick.  I can change 63 gallons of water in my 75 gallon discus tank - 15 minutes drain, 17 minutes refill, 21 minutes to refill the barrel.  Active time for me is less than 10 minutes, though I should time it sometime.  A quick vacuum of the bottom of the tank takes a couple minutes.  Then I set timers and do dishes, laundry, feed fish/cats/dogs, etc.  It takes so little "hand time" if it's set up well.

On 4/11/2024 at 11:22 AM, madmark285 said:

Is downstair the basement or the first floor of your house? 

Something to think about. When or if you break down the tank, the wall behind the tank will have to be re-painted and/or repaired. So cutting a hole in the drywall (lathe&plaster would be harder) to run a hose is not a big deal, just save the piece of drywall. More info on your house would be helpful.

They also make through-wall hose bibs.  I didn't go that route because I didn't want a joint in the wall.  So I ran a garden hose up from a Y valve.  One side drains to the tank, one side goes to the pump.

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:22 PM, madmark285 said:

Is downstair the basement or the first floor of your house? 

Something to think about. When or if you break down the tank, the wall behind the tank will have to be re-painted and/or repaired. So cutting a hole in the drywall (lathe&plaster would be harder) to run a hose is not a big deal, just save the piece of drywall. More info on your house would be helpful.

Yeah it’s the first floor. No basements as I’m in UK lol

[madmark285]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:25 PM, Cjbear087 said:

Yeah it’s the first floor. No basements as I’m in UK lol

OK, understood. Where is the tap on the first floor? 

And where can you put the water barrel (garbage can)?

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:27 PM, madmark285 said:

OK, understood. Where is the tap on the first floor? 

And where can you put the water barrel (garbage can)?

It’s in my kitchen, so I couldn’t really permanently locate a barrel + I’m living in my parents house and I don’t think they would be happy with me digging holes in the wall lol

[madmark285]

On 4/11/2024 at 12:29 PM, Cjbear087 said:

I’m living in my parents house and I don’t think they would be happy

LOL, parents can be so restrictive at times. 

So can you put a barrel on the second floor near the tank? Do you have an outside tap (faucet)? You could just take a hose, toss it out the window and connect to an outside tap. More work but still reasonable easy. An outside tap should be before the water softener. 

When I do a water change, I just toss and hose out the window and drain the water into the lawn. 

 

 

[Cjbear087]

On 4/11/2024 at 5:35 PM, madmark285 said:

LOL, parents can be so restrictive at times. 

So can you put a barrel on the second floor near the tank? Do you have an outside tap (faucet)? You could just take a hose, toss it out the window and connect to an outside tap. More work but still reasonable easy. An outside tap should be before the water softener. 

When I do a water change, I just toss and hose out the window and drain the water into the lawn. 

 

 

Surely at that point the bypass would just be easier as I would still have to heat the outside tap water? Just flip the lever, fill bucket and heat for 24 hrs. Already got a pump to get it in the tank too.