1 koi angel in 28 gallon?

[Max W.]

I was thinking about getting koi angelfish. But I’ve never had a big enough tank. Would a 28 gallons be fine for 1? Or would I have to get a bigger tank size? I would not get it for a while, but here’s my stocking:

3 panda Cory’s 

1 black neon tetra

1 neon tetra (getting 3 or 4 more)

3 cherry barbs

1 male cobra endlers guppy (also getting more)

1 orange sunrise delta guppy

 

 

Edited March 29 by Max W.

[Tony s]

29 is not ideal, but doable. Koi are on the smaller side for angels. To play with your stocking ideas, try aqadvisor.com. It has more information than just stocking though. It gives you warnings of incompatibility also. And warning of differences in water preferences too

 

[Tony s]

Was running your stocking, just for fun. Aqadvisot wants 4 pandas and 5 cherry barbs. It also the neons would be food. And the endler would be food. 
 

so doing by the site

1 koi angel

4 pandas

5 cherry barbs

5 black neon 

1 delta guppy 

 

and that puts you at 94% full

1 more Angel puts you at 120%  which is where I normally stock to from this site

 

[anewbie]

On 3/28/2024 at 11:00 PM, Tony s said:

29 is not ideal, but doable. Koi are on the smaller side for angels. 

 

This is hogwash and i wonder why you make this claim. I've had koi that are very large; and others not as large. A lot depends on the sex as females are naturally smaller than males; but there is a wide variance among individual fishes. Now someone might be breeding a 'smaller' koi through selectively picking smaller fishes but then I would be concern about inbreeding and other recessive traits working into the strain.

 

Having said that some people keep adult angelfish in a 29 but i generally consider it too small. If you have a known female (young angelfishes are virtually impossible to sex and some one who claims they are selling a young female is a person you should not deal with); then it would probably work ok in a 29. People use 29s to breed angelfish but I would not keep them in a 29 full time. I had a male i had to move to a 29 for time-out (his mate rejected him after a couple of years) and when it became clear she would never allow him back into the 120 i had to give him away since the 29 was just too cramp for him (he was not my largest male but he was large). My koi male i have now is about 6 to 7 inches top to bottom and he is only 2; so will probably grow a bit more over the next few years. 

There really aren't great aquariums for angelfishes - maybe a 70 which is 18 inches wide and 21 inches tall. A lot of folks keep them in 55 but i find them too narrow. 

 

Of course what you can do is get some dime size angelfishes for a 29 and keep them until they become too large and then sell them back to the petshop; there is a chance they will get stunted but that is hard to predict.

[Tony s]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:02 AM, anewbie said:

This is hogwash and i wonder why you make this claim. I've had koi that are very large

Of all my angels. My koi are by far the smallest. Now my marbled get huge. But so far, not my koi. not hand selected by any means. My marbled male probably 9” counting trailers. The koi male probably 6”.  My koi don’t hold the trailers as erect as the marbles for whatever reason. The females of both are a bit smaller than the males. If your koi are bigger than the rest. Great. So far mine are not. Purchased at same time. at same size. In same tank. started in a 20 for a few weeks when quarter sized. Moved to a 75.
 

29 is not something I would do long term. I said, not ideal, but doable. Not perfect, but I’ve seen worse.. I gave an honest answer from my observation. But hey, you feel free to keep busting my chops 
 

 

Edited March 29 by Tony s

[anewbie]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:35 AM, Tony s said:

Of all my angels. My koi are by far the smallest. Now my marbled get huge. But so far, not my koi. not hand selected by any means. My marbled male probably 9” counting trailers. The koi male probably 6”.  My koi don’t hold the trailers as erect as the marbles for whatever reason. The females of both are a bit smaller than the males. If your koi are bigger than the rest. Great. So far mine are not. Purchased at same time. at same size. In same tank. started in a 20 for a few weeks when quarter sized. Moved to a 75.
 

29 is not something I would do long term. I said, not ideal, but doable. Not perfect, but I’ve seen worse.. I gave an honest answer from my observation. But hey, you feel free to keep busting my chops 
 

 

I really don't want to have this debate; i don't know how many angelfishes you've owned or what sources they have been acquired from or their age/sexes. Since I know of at least one really large male koi that is sufficient to say that some koi do get large. Genetically there is nothing that prevent a koi from getting as large or larger than any other domestic angelfishes; though as I noted in theory there might be a gene that control size and someone could domestically breed them around that gene.

I have a small black male angelfish but i'm not going to claim all black angelfish is small; i have a smallish platinum male but his siblings are a solid 1.5+ inches larger. There is a wide variance in size and growth rate. 

Having said this i am curious how many male koi anglefish you owned and their ages; so to see what sort of sample points you are using for your claim.

 

[macdaddy36]

I think the 29 gallon would be too small long term. Also, the fact that a full grown angelfish may or may not snack on your endlers, guppies, and tetras. Like previously said, you could get small angelfish and sell them back to the pet store when they grow too large, but you may not want to do that.

Pearl Gourami could be a good option which looks kind of like an angelfish. They are a bit smaller, and I think more peaceful. I think I have seen a gold variant before too which might have some koi coloration you are looking for. Endlers are tiny so you will want to be careful with them though.

[macdaddy36]

On 3/29/2024 at 1:25 AM, Tony s said:

Was running your stocking, just for fun. Aqadvisot wants 4 pandas and 5 cherry barbs. It also the neons would be food. And the endler would be food. 
 

so doing by the site

1 koi angel

4 pandas

5 cherry barbs

5 black neon 

1 delta guppy 

 

and that puts you at 94% full

1 more Angel puts you at 120%  which is where I normally stock to from this site

 

Aqadvisor is a great resource, but not always perfectly accurate when dealing with large fish in small tanks. For example, it says that an Oscar in a 30 gallon is only equal to 108% stocking level. However, it does give the disclaimer that it's not recommended

[Max W.]

Ok thanks, I did not want to start a fight. I was also thinking about a honey gurami. I think that that’s the better choice at the moment.

[macdaddy36]

On 3/29/2024 at 6:21 PM, Max W. said:

Ok thanks, I did not want to start a fight. I was also thinking about a honey gurami. I think that that’s the better choice at the moment.

Honey gourami are great and a perfect choice! You could even get a small group.

[anewbie]

There are 100s of dwarf cichild and gourami that can work in a 29 so i think the real question is what are you looking for in a fish? Like all things there are no 'right' answer though there are fishes or combination of fishes that don't work well together. 

I'd start by asking if your water is hard or soft and then go from there; for hard water there are some wonderful small central america cicihld; while less common they are really nice fishes and do well in harder water; of course gourami and sa cichild are soft water fishes. Then there is a question of what you want - a fish that looks pretty or one that has interesting behavior but maybe a bit less colourful. Do you want fishes that will breed or ones that will eat food  from your hand and so forth.

 

[Max W.]

I’m kinda looking for personality in the fish. For example, one of my guppies chases my finger around the tank. So I think maybe a honey gurami or a dwarf gurami.

[macdaddy36]

I've always wanted to keep dwarf gourami because of their beautiful colors but I haven't because of their potential aggression and the dreaded iridovirus.

Honey gourami do have more interesting personalities than a tetra or a danio, but mine were not bold or confident enough to eat out of my hand or chase my finger, but they would swim up to the glass when I would walk by the tank.

Dwarf cichlids like Apistogramma or rams might be bolder. My A. panduro will grab food out of my fingers but I wouldn't try that particular species since they will be aggressive towards those other fish in your tank. @anewbie has experience with a wider variety of dwarf cichlids so they would probably have better advice.

All this depends on your water parameters of course, although I have found my panduro to do good well outside of what would be considered ideal parameters. I have high pH but very soft water oddly, so that is probably a factor. I know that prime time aquatics keeps them in very hard Chicago water though. The honey gourami will probably been fine in anything from 6-8 pH, with my reasoning being that the parameters varies widely over the course of different seasons in their native habitat.

 

[anewbie]

On 3/31/2024 at 5:59 PM, macdaddy36 said:

I've always wanted to keep dwarf gourami because of their beautiful colors but I haven't because of their potential aggression and the dreaded iridovirus.

Honey gourami do have more interesting personalities than a tetra or a danio, but mine were not bold or confident enough to eat out of my hand or chase my finger, but they would swim up to the glass when I would walk by the tank.

Dwarf cichlids like Apistogramma or rams might be bolder. My A. panduro will grab food out of my fingers but I wouldn't try that particular species since they will be aggressive towards those other fish in your tank. @anewbie has experience with a wider variety of dwarf cichlids so they would probably have better advice.

All this depends on your water parameters of course, although I have found my panduro to do good well outside of what would be considered ideal parameters. I have high pH but very soft water oddly, so that is probably a factor. I know that prime time aquatics keeps them in very hard Chicago water though. The honey gourami will probably been fine in anything from 6-8 pH, with my reasoning being that the parameters varies widely over the course of different seasons in their native habitat.

 

All dwarf cichild has the potential to be territorial but some are more likely to be passive than others. Borelli are one of the more passive species but i would only keep a male in a display aquarium. Also there are never any guarantees as each fish is unique. As to 'eating out of your hand' some species are less shy than others; but most of the bold species i have owned have also be a bit more on the aggressive side. Panduro can be very territorial.

 

The primary difference between dwarf cichild and many cichild (like angels) is the area of the tank they occupy; dwarf cichild tend to hang near the bottom while larger cichild tend to hang near the top; of course there are exceptions. My winkelfleck is everywhere but i'm not sure i would keep him in a community aquarium and it is one of those species that does better with soft acidic water. I will note that my male agassizii is moody and frequently snappy if another fish enters his space. So there are a couple of data points. I have a special love for blue rams but they do better in warmer temps around 82-84.

Also if your tank is structured right the other fishes won't enter the dwarf cichild territory. I mentioned panduro being aggressive but most pencil fishes; tetra, rasbora, ... stay middle to top. Of course you wouldn't want to keep cory with such as fish due to constant stress of the male (or female) chasing them out of their territory but people do it anyway. An particuarly aggressive panduro might well remove the eyes of the cory to put it bluntly. My kribs used to eat the tails off of cory. Yea i learned my lesson there.... so we all start with less knowledge than what we gain over time.

 

 

Edited April 1 by anewbie

[macdaddy36]

On 4/1/2024 at 6:47 AM, anewbie said:

All dwarf cichild has the potential to be territorial but some are more likely to be passive than others. Borelli are one of the more passive species but i would only keep a male in a display aquarium. Also there are never any guarantees as each fish is unique. As to 'eating out of your hand' some species are less shy than others; but most of the bold species i have owned have also be a bit more on the aggressive side. Panduro can be very territorial.

 

The primary difference between dwarf cichild and many cichild (like angels) is the area of the tank they occupy; dwarf cichild tend to hang near the bottom while larger cichild tend to hang near the top; of course there are exceptions. My winkelfleck is everywhere but i'm not sure i would keep him in a community aquarium and it is one of those species that does better with soft acidic water. I will note that my male agassizii is moody and frequently snappy if another fish enters his space. So there are a couple of data points. I have a special love for blue rams but they do better in warmer temps around 82-84.

Also if your tank is structured right the other fishes won't enter the dwarf cichild territory. I mentioned panduro being aggressive but most pencil fishes; tetra, rasbora, ... stay middle to top. Of course you wouldn't want to keep cory with such as fish due to constant stress of the male (or female) chasing them out of their territory but people do it anyway. An particuarly aggressive panduro might well remove the eyes of the cory to put it bluntly. My kribs used to eat the tails off of cory. Yea i learned my lesson there.... so we all start with less knowledge than what we gain over time.

 

 

My panduro has even attacked pencilfishes

[anewbie]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:51 PM, macdaddy36 said:

My panduro has even attacked pencilfishes

That is not surprising - my a. lineta snaps at the pencil fishes; what make pencil fishes a good option is they don't eat frys - though i think n. beckfordi (sp) might eat frys.

If the tank is sufficiently tall and the dither stays near the top then they are less likely to get attacked as the territory tends to be in the lower region.

 

[Max W.]

Ok, thanks @anewbieand @macdaddy36. I think I would go with a honey gurami because I have a lot of small fish. I’m gonna start a journal on this tank.

[macdaddy36]

Honey gourami are social so go ahead and get a trio. Ratios aren’t that important but ideal would be 1m/2f.

[Max W.]

Ok, thanks for the help @macdaddy36.