Apisto in Florida Hard Water

[Eno]

I have great hard Florida water. I am building out a "dark" water tank lots of drift wood and Indian almond leaves. May try some other botanical as well.  Are Apisto's out of the question with out using RO water?  or killing quite a few fish before I find some that adapt? Should I just be trying to find fish more suited to my water?

Thank you for taking the time to read and or answer! This community is the best.

PH - 7.2

KH -120 PPM

GH - >301PPM

[Tony s]

If you can find apistos bred in local water you should be fine. Or at the very least you could ask the growers. The toughest apistos for hard water appear to be panduro, macmasteri, and cacatoides. I think if you are open to mixing your tap with ro, you can find a great many more. Maybe 50/50 to get your kh dKh to 3 and your dGh to 7.  You should be mostly fine at those levels

[cmo1922]

I live in central FL and also have fairly hard water, similar parameters to you. I have one Apistogramma cacatoides which was bred by a local FL fish farm, and it has done very well. I had more but I had to rehome them due to aggression. I would say buy them from a farm or breeder who raises them in our water and they will do fine! Message me if you would like my recommendation of the farm.

[jwcarlson]

I've got discus, apistos, and rams in rock hard water here in the midwest.  They won't successfully breed.  But I think they can live perfectly normal lives.  My pH is 8.2 or 8.3, GH and KH are both high.  16-18 degrees each, if I recall correctly.  

I think that the sweet spots for these species are smaller when you're in harder water, but it's not impossible.

[anewbie]

On 3/24/2024 at 8:25 PM, Eno said:

I have great hard Florida water. I am building out a "dark" water tank lots of drift wood and Indian almond leaves. May try some other botanical as well.  Are Apisto's out of the question with out using RO water?  or killing quite a few fish before I find some that adapt? Should I just be trying to find fish more suited to my water?

Thank you for taking the time to read and or answer! This community is the best.

PH - 7.2

KH -120 PPM

GH - >301PPM

First you are not building a blackwater aquarium with hardwater. I realize you said dark water but blackwater is not a reflection of the colour of the water but the mineral content. 

Apisto is a genus not a species. Many domestic species of apisto will 'survive' for a short period in hard water; but they won't live 4+ years. There will be no point in buying a female as nearly no species will be able to breed successfully with water that hard.

--

There are many very nice central american cichild that will do a lot better in hardwater; rather than focus on a genus that is not suitable for your water i'd look for one that works well. 

[Eno]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:36 AM, anewbie said:

First you are not building a blackwater aquarium with hardwater. I realize you said dark water but blackwater is not a reflection of the colour of the water but the mineral content. 

Apisto is a genus not a species. Many domestic species of apisto will 'survive' for a short period in hard water; but they won't live 4+ years. There will be no point in buying a female as nearly no species will be able to breed successfully with water that hard.

--

There are many very nice central american cichild that will do a lot better in hardwater; rather than focus on a genus that is not suitable for your water i'd look for one that works well. 

Thank you for your kind response.  

[Tony s]

If you can find a breeder in your area, and that’s a possibility, not a certainty. You should be able to breed them just fine. Breeders are not going to use ro water at any level. It’s just too expensive. They’ll either pull it from the ground, or get it from the crystal springs, and 

I’m not sure that’s allowed 

 

[jwcarlson]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:21 AM, Tony s said:

If you can find a breeder in your area, and that’s a possibility, not a certainty. You should be able to breed them just fine. Breeders are not going to use ro water at any level. It’s just too expensive. They’ll either pull it from the ground, or get it from the crystal springs, and 

I’m not sure that’s allowed 

 

Breeders absolutely us RO water at any and all levels. 🙂

[Tony s]

On 3/25/2024 at 9:50 AM, jwcarlson said:

Breeders absolutely us RO water at any and all levels

I know the smaller ones do. But I’m not sure the big Florida farms would. Their farms are outside in big casket vaults or actual small ponds. Would be worth asking though when purchasing. Cause you’d want to come close when/if trying to breed. 
 

[anewbie]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:21 AM, Tony s said:

If you can find a breeder in your area, and that’s a possibility, not a certainty. You should be able to breed them just fine. Breeders are not going to use ro water at any level. It’s just too expensive. They’ll either pull it from the ground, or get it from the crystal springs, and 

I’m not sure that’s allowed 

 

ro water is very cheap. You can setup ro water for under $200 easily and make that back on the first set of frys. I can't tell you what breeders do; but i can tell you that most species of apistogramma are unable to breed in very hard water. 

 

As i said earlier there are very nice central america dwarf cichild that are often over looked that do well in their native hard water environment. In fact i don't keep these fishes because my water is too soft. Apistogramma get a lot of press but beyond that there is nothing that special about most of the species esp when it comes to interesting behavior. In fact most species of Apistogramma are a pain to keep due to their polygamous behavior and aggression pattern. Most fish keepers are better off with pair forming cichild esp if they intend to breed them as a hobby (as oppose to a business). Last but least because the term 'apistogramma' is thrown out there so much many fish keepers confuse the genus with individual species. This is esp important because there is a wide variance in behavior among different species. 

Edited March 25 by anewbie

[jwcarlson]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:56 AM, Tony s said:

I know the smaller ones do. But I’m not sure the big Florida farms would. Their farms are outside in big casket vaults or actual small ponds. Would be worth asking though when purchasing. Cause you’d want to come close when/if trying to breed. 
 

I'm guessing those farms are mostly making fish that breed well in whatever water they have.  They're not breeding discus and cardinal tetras outdoors, for instance.

Cory went to this big breeder in Israel awhile back.  Towards the end (about 21 minutes) he talks about having three big RO systems to make water for 8000 pairs of neon tetras (I think, but maybe cardinals).  He also basically makes it into black water with additives.

 

[Tony s]

I know ro. With my high iron I’m mostly trapped there. And of course it’s a genus. One with lots of variation in its care. There are people in Chicago that bring them in to sell that won’t use ro. Because their customers don’t have ro. I myself am fascinated by the idea of apistos. The same as I’m fascinated with gbr’s and discus. But, really there a tons of soft water fish that grow and breed in harder water. And hard water fish that grow in soft water. All plants and animals have a certain degree of plasticity. There’s a wide degree of what can be done. 
 

but, you know. I don’t believe I ever said yes you can or no you can’t. I said ask the breeders. Especially local breeders. 
 

 

[Phirefase]

I would say your luck with the more commonly available apistos will be better with your hard water. Cacatouides, agassizii, panduro, mcmasteri etc. will do fine in hard water as long as it is kept clean. When I was cranking out cacauoides, I would breed them in RO water and grow them out in hard water for ease of water changes since I have hard water out of the tap. 

[Tlindsey]

On 3/25/2024 at 8:36 AM, anewbie said:

Many domestic species of apisto will 'survive' for a short period in hard water; but they won't live 4+ years. 

This is true from my experience with them.