Ammonia spike HELP!

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/8/2024 at 7:51 PM, Tony s said:

I think I would

Man, I did a 25%, because my ammonia was low today at .25. @Tony s

[Whitecloud09]

It’s .25 and maybe the tiniest bit less possibly. Here is some pictures of the check this morning @Tony s, @macdaddy36, and everyone else.

Edited May 10 by Whitecloud09
Forgot the pictures 😉

[Tony s]

That mostly looks acceptable. Less would be better. I'm still stumped as to why you're having to fight with it at all. It's like something is inhibiting your bacterial growth. 5 wcmm's shouldn't even produce a lot of waste. With all the water changes you do you should be at zero. 

I honestly don't think it's a problem with your filter cartridges. bb should be alive on every surface of your tank not just there. It's like you're continuously doing a fish in cycle. All of your decor and substrate are aquarium safe, so that's not it either. You have some healthy plants so your ammonia and nitrite levels should be being reduced. Your tap is fine as far as we know. and yet here we are.

Do you have any info on where your water comes from before the tap. Could it be passing through a water conditioner somewhere? not necessarily a water softener more of a water sanitizer. I'm not saying you have anything like that. But when I did in my system. Installed by us to kill bacteria in the well. and it also killed the cycle on a regular basis. just throwing ideas out at this point

 

[Whitecloud09]

Nope, i have no clue where my water comes from before tap besides its city water. Why is all i am asking.................................................. 

On 5/10/2024 at 12:34 PM, Tony s said:

 

Do you have any info on where your water comes from before the tap. Could it be passing through a water conditioner somewhere? not necessarily a water softener more of a water sanitizer. I'm not saying you have anything like that. But when I did in my system. Installed by us to kill bacteria in the well. and it also killed the cycle on a regular basis. just throwing ideas out at this point

Could it be my ammonia test jit? Should i get strips and test? The fish, are as healthy as they could be. Living it up in there lol. I have no clue....

[Whitecloud09]

Could it have to do with the ph of the water? And temp as i read this, also my gh and kh are both 2, if that means anything at all 

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=is+there+ammonia+in+city+water&hspart=iba&hsimp=yhs-syn_launcham&param2=9dUI1n2R0BLDxNuWfiP4aSFOTltNdSPoIx38%2BUf%2FiXrvPdoGmStdlfwLFZYDvqkAJrWWk4yNReCLnBD%2FqPsDZd7olTZcV8HMx1G%2Fk786sE2Tis1g8dJd8zxVWs%2BbKztBnq1TfqUiqPYK9pXifXmJFyorDuCsYXJE71Y6G5tfejBOGQIkjMWL9ueYatTiC2seBRG7mLrXW8bxskI4s31K8kOvBetBHycGi3ZyaVwlEjUKPvxyjERSAiOqmUn%2FkMi2Iy%2Fv%2FBy3SaHMDPBujTOF9A1CxwSb6tFKPLzgY55T2C42gLx568IpR7jXQVDE6XrO&param3=HpCyCT2cXaKG4CVDR00rqgObRQahimQNt2d5ZCR7Jy3IZoD3T11qaq2nywASZYgKzfyS10BttKbIeHkaaNI9P0ioRHftV47BlCRVuFr0mVctO7htUdYjC5dp%2Fy6lQtNXycZ%2Fl5k9kS0fHQGnJnFf4%2BU%2BYl2TSsGiOseOtnQhKiRVko3gcXLlbDwQyIBxjoAb8rXuJow298qLDb7ZCDTVGrSG1rxH8q8gmQMjB%2Fim2C9fMDHdbRdkDp7L%2BkQmc8lcLNPMk%2B5eTw1MFEKJMBnND6PCkO7jaoFECrjoZSnfAo9ml2uFBHlNnXPiuIIkRr1E&type=f2%3A%3B.6850610d4680680b2811f3dcdca6be379af%3B5.ac48522a20946644e52a8ef8e64166f19c0ca9cd289975659b0570f139cfd1da05e084af6b3ead9e74a4d#:~:text=Ammonia exists in either one of two forms. It can exist in a pure%2C un-ionized%2C uncharged form (NH3)%2C or it can exist as a positively charged ammonium hydroxide ion (NH4%2B) when it dissolves in water. The form ammonia takes in water is highly dependent on the temperature and pH of the water.

It has to be my water, or i am testing wrong but i think that think that i am doing everything correctly. Last guess, its the jugs i use for water changes, empty distilled water jugs and a used (idk what for) 5 gallon bucket i found and cleaned from my basement. @Tony s

Edited May 10 by Whitecloud09

[Whitecloud09]

When pH is low and the water is acidic, it heavily reduces the toxic form of NH3 ammonia, but with a pH higher than 7 and at certain water temperatures, the concentration of toxic NH3 ammonia is much higher.

I just read this. My temp is 72 with ph sitting around 7.6. Could this be another thing? I am sorry for spamming posts but i just want to have a normal no ammonia tank like most of everyone else 😥

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 12:59 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

Should i get strips and test?

Honestly, i think i would. just to have a backup number and double check. Maybe a small container of the coop ammonia strips

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 1:34 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

I just read this. My temp is 72 with ph sitting around 7.6. Could this be another thing? I am sorry for spamming posts but i just want to have a normal no ammonia tank like most of everyone else 😥

Ph 7.6 is completely normal for the majority of the country, about half has ph even higher than that and the cycles are fine and stable. mine usually hovers around 8. so ph is not the issue. 

 

On 5/10/2024 at 1:34 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

but i just want to have a normal no ammonia tank like most of everyone else 😥

Yeah, I know. I desperately want that for you as well. We'll get you there

[Whitecloud09]

Just completed a 25% change, mainly to scrub algae and clean gravel, 

On 5/10/2024 at 1:57 PM, Tony s said:

Ph 7.6 is completely normal for the majority of the country, about half has ph even higher than that and the cycles are fine and stable. mine usually hovers around 8. so ph is not the issue. 

 

Yeah, I know. I desperately want that for you as well. We'll get you there

Thanks, yes you have been patient enough with me a guy who will sometimes panic 😅

Filter cartridge coming today from amazon, + dr tims one and only

[Whitecloud09]

Remember this? The rotting roots were still there for all the way to today until i noticed them.......could this be the issue, rotting plants can = ammonia right? @Tony s and the gel glue was there too.

[cotasm]

I just read through the majority of the comments in this thread, and wow, I sure would be losing my mind in this situation. I really hope you find the cause soon. Other than the great advice you've already been given, I only had two shot-in-the-dark thoughts. (Disclaimer: I am no expert; far from it. I've only been in the hobby a little over a year.)

A couple of times, I saw suggestions to try using a different test kit or strips to ensure that something isn't wrong with yours, but I don't recall seeing if you ever did. I use the same API kit that you do, and I've never had any issues, but I do use strips from Co-Op once in a while just for curious comparison.

Also, I noticed you mention in quite a few comments that you are dosing with Dr. Tim's (and I assume you're doing that with each water change). This is going to sound counterintuitive, but have you tried not using it for a stretch of water changes? Again, I'm grasping at straws here, but since you've eliminated almost everything else, I was wondering if maybe its contents (whether isolated to one bottle or in general) are acting as a strange catalyst for your issue. The other reason that came to mind is because (and I'd welcome more experienced members here to tell me if this is nonsense) I remember reading that bacteria-in-a-bottle, in most cases, ranged from completely ineffective to mildly effective. So, I went looking for where I read that. The higher-level read is here, and there is a more in-depth one here. However, it did make a point that, of all the ones they tested, Dr. Tim's was the only one that might be moderately effective in speeding up the cycle. The actual quote was: "Dr. Tim’s One and Only beneficial bacteria-in-a-bottle did have some statistically positive effects on cycling. This may only be due to it being a fresher product." Even if it's true that it's effective, I still go back to my first thought that it can't hurt to hold it back for a while just in case there's some weird interaction with it.

Again, I say none of this with authority; I'm just trying to come up with ideas that perhaps you haven't already tried.

Good luck!

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:53 PM, cotasm said:

"Dr. Tim’s One and Only beneficial bacteria-in-a-bottle did have some statistically positive effects on cycling. This may only be due to it being a fresher product."

For the most part that might be accurate. But the one that I use to cycle my tanks was not even tested against and article was at least 5 years old at this point. I find I'm very much a fan of Fitzzyme 7 and Fritz products to cycle tanks. The only time I've had an issue with it is when it was shipped in January and froze in transit. 

And absolutely thank you for your input, He's been trying to cycle this one since February? At this point we're ready to beat our heads against a wall somewhere. A new viewpoint is very welcome. 

Besides the coop test strips, one of my next suggestions was going to be a small bottle of Fritz7 to make sure we've good a good source of bacteria. seems like we've tried everything else.

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:43 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

rotting plants can = ammonia right?

rotting plant equal ammonia. Correct. But the bacteria should be strong enough to handle a tiny bit of dead plant roots. as for the super glue, it become inert the moment it hardens. that's what makes it great for aquariums. 

could you run a fresh set of nitrate tests for me. remembering to shake the containers and the test tube really hard for a minute before using or reading. and maybe a picture of the bacteria, the dr Tim's and see if it has an expiration date on it

Edited May 10 by Tony s

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:53 PM, cotasm said:

I'm grasping at straws here

Ha! i know the feeling. I'm baffled by what's going on. It may very well by the test kit. but I use the same one, so.....

But, really we appreciate you're taking the time and going over the issue. Fresh set of eyes and all that. I'm to the point I can't possibly imagine the cause.

[johnnyxxl]

I didn't think of the possibility that the test kit was expired.  I don't test ammonia every week myself, I use the test strips for weekly testing or even twice weekly testing. 

I was thinking about the additive but hadn't found anything that would support it causing issues with Whitecloud09 tank.  

[Whitecloud09]

On 5/10/2024 at 2:53 PM, cotasm said:

I just read through the majority of the comments in this thread, and wow, I sure would be losing my mind in this situation. I really hope you find the cause soon. Other than the great advice you've already been given, I only had two shot-in-the-dark thoughts. (Disclaimer: I am no expert; far from it. I've only been in the hobby a little over a year.)

A couple of times, I saw suggestions to try using a different test kit or strips to ensure that something isn't wrong with yours, but I don't recall seeing if you ever did. I use the same API kit that you do, and I've never had any issues, but I do use strips from Co-Op once in a while just for curious comparison.

Also, I noticed you mention in quite a few comments that you are dosing with Dr. Tim's (and I assume you're doing that with each water change). This is going to sound counterintuitive, but have you tried not using it for a stretch of water changes? Again, I'm grasping at straws here, but since you've eliminated almost everything else, I was wondering if maybe its contents (whether isolated to one bottle or in general) are acting as a strange catalyst for your issue. The other reason that came to mind is because (and I'd welcome more experienced members here to tell me if this is nonsense) I remember reading that bacteria-in-a-bottle, in most cases, ranged from completely ineffective to mildly effective. So, I went looking for where I read that. The higher-level read is here, and there is a more in-depth one here. However, it did make a point that, of all the ones they tested, Dr. Tim's was the only one that might be moderately effective in speeding up the cycle. The actual quote was: "Dr. Tim’s One and Only beneficial bacteria-in-a-bottle did have some statistically positive effects on cycling. This may only be due to it being a fresher product." Even if it's true that it's effective, I still go back to my first thought that it can't hurt to hold it back for a while just in case there's some weird interaction with it.

Again, I say none of this with authority; I'm just trying to come up with ideas that perhaps you haven't already tried.

Good luck!

Ok, let me first say, I am super glad someone else chime in here with some fresh ideas!!! @Tony s and me are in the dark and just trying to figure out the issue. I thought I did cycle the tank @Tony s right? Like it had no ammonia after the cycle for a month. Maybe I am wrong or just tired 🥱 lol. @cotasm, thanks a million, I don’t use the dr Tim’s bacteria every change actually and have not at all recently. Maybe it expired when in the middle of use? Idk

On 5/10/2024 at 5:14 PM, Tony s said:

Ha! i know the feeling. I'm baffled by what's going on. It may very well by the test kit. but I use the same one, so.....

But, really we appreciate you're taking the time and going over the issue. Fresh set of eyes and all that. I'm to the point I can't possibly imagine the cause.

Yeah, I am starting to pull my hair out and just mad and confused why this is happening.

On 5/10/2024 at 5:07 PM, Tony s said:

rotting plant equal ammonia. Correct. But the bacteria should be strong enough to handle a tiny bit of dead plant roots. as for the super glue, it become inert the moment it hardens. that's what makes it great for aquariums. 

could you run a fresh set of nitrate tests for me. remembering to shake the containers and the test tube really hard for a minute before using or reading. and maybe a picture of the bacteria, the dr Tim's and see if it has an expiration date on it

Yup. I will tomorrow morning and report. Last time I checked they were 15 ppm. And I do shake vigorously for one minute and shake the bottle and everything, I have been trying to follow the book as perfectly as I can 😉

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 9:23 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

I thought I did cycle the tank

as far as I remember, yes, you had a good cycle at one point. and usually a cycle just doesn't disappear. but, it's not impossible either. I guess we'll see when you do that nitrate test. You do enough water changes it should be low, but if it comes back negative, then it's a failed cycle. which is okay, you could just do a fish in cycle without a whole lot of extra work. you've been watching and doing water changes anyway. You know, maybe it's best if we think of as having failed anyway. See if you can find some Fritz7 and redose the tank with it. I would still like to see what the coop strips say though

On that bottle of Fritz7 that froze on me, it took me forever to figure it out. when I went to use it it was already thawed out. so no traces

[AllFishNoBrakes]

At this point I would be getting a second testing option to verify that you’re actually seeing ammonia. 
 

Other than that, maybe just do nothing? Seems counterintuitive, but maybe things just need to settle. 
 

I would also suggest switching to a sponge filter instead of using those cartridges. Or, get a sponge pad and cut it to size and put that in the filter instead of swapping out cartridges. If you’re legitimately having issues with ammonia, throwing away the bacteria you’ve worked so hard to produce isn’t helping your situation. 
 

Just my $0.02. I hope you’re able to work through this soon! You could be a case study on why new people enter the hobby and then quit and get out. Good on you for sticking with it. You just need to find the solution to your problem and you’ll be set!

[DBrown918]

Just read through this fully and thought I'd offer my take.  It sounds to me like you may not have been fully cycled in the first place or you broke your cycle by washing a cartridge out or replacing a cartridge with a new one.  

Did you ever observe a high nitrite reading followed by a certain day where the nitrites just seemed to disappear or almost disappear overnight?  Also, were you doing as many water changes during cycling as you are now?  I don't know how to gauge if your tank was ever fully cycled without more info.  

Is a cartridge the only thing you have in the filter or did you add a sponge?  It's all about surface area media in the filter and letting the tank mature slowly.  I personally use filter floss/sponges and fluval biomax in a mesh bag in my HOBs.  My tank is overstocked slightly and I feed excessively some days and never see ammonia still.  It is moderately planted and I have several high nutrient uptake plants like anacharis and hornwort that also help.

Honestly sounds to me like you are in the process of cycling again.  The hard part about that is you have fish so you're going to want to do tons of water changes which will make it take a bit longer as you're going to remove the ammonia that kicks the cycle off.  Are you seeing any nitrites?  What are your typical nitrate readings?  If you're seeing ammonia spikes without an increase in either nitrites or nitrates then you aren't cycled.  

Edit:  If you are seeing ammonia spikes without an increase in ONLY nitrates then you aren't cycled.  If you see nitrites at any point you are definitely not cycled 

Edited May 11 by DBrown918

[Tony s]

On 5/10/2024 at 10:30 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

You could be a case study on why new people enter the hobby and then quit and get out. Good

And that’s what I’m trying so hard to prevent. And he’s trying so hard, possibly too hard. I know he did have it cycled and like any new keeper he may have over reacted. Possibly changing out the cartridge sooner than necessary. Most of my tanks run on cartridges, but I just rinse them out. I probably go through 2 or 3 a year. Never had any issues with cycle failure from cartridges. 

 

 

On 5/11/2024 at 1:33 AM, DBrown918 said:

Honestly sounds to me like you are in the process of cycling again.  The hard part about that is you have fish so you're going to want to do tons of water changes which will make it take a bit longer as you're going to remove the ammonia that kicks the cycle off

Yeah, at some point we’re just going to have to assume it’s a dead cycle. Won’t actually be much extra work for him, he’s already doing the water changes. That’s one of the reasons I’d like to see a nitrate test in the morning. Although maybe we should just assume at this point and start over. I really would hate to see him give up after all of this.

[DBrown918]

He has no reason to give up, it will work out.  He just needs to dose with prime regularly to keep the ammonia non-toxic and do less water changes.  Lucky for him he has white clouds, which are very hardy fish.  Just needs to recycle the tank and don't do anything with the filter media for a while.  Also don't use tap water to rinse off filter media because the chlorine can kill the bacteria.  If you're going to rinse it off do it in tank water in a container.  

I think prime lasts for 48 hours so if it's dosed every 48 hours it should be ok.  That in combination with less water changes should make it take less time.  

[Tony s]

On 5/11/2024 at 2:02 AM, DBrown918 said:

while.  Also don't use tap water to rinse off filter media because the chlorine can kill the bacteria.  If you're going to rinse it off do it in tank water in a container.  

Actually, that’s a myth. It can take the chlorine in tap water up to an hour to kill bacteria. A quick rinse in tap is often the easiest way to rinse filters out. Running water makes a ton of difference. Jason Adams, who’s a microbiology professor near Chicago and host of Primetime aquatics has done a video explaining this. I especially find it makes cleaning canister sponges sooo much easier. Yes, you will lose a small amount of bacteria, but not enough to damage a cycle

 

[DBrown918]

Gotcha, good to know.  

[Tony s]

On 5/11/2024 at 2:02 AM, DBrown918 said:

Just needs to recycle the tank and don't do anything with the filter media for a while

This is it exactly. I think I came to this sometime yesterday. He did the typical new keeper thing and panicked about something. And changed his cartridge out a couple weeks after it finished the first cycle. Sometime towards the end of February. Yes, we’ve been doing this that long. So it was a new tank, with a new cycle. I think a fresh bottle of bacteria would help enormously. And patience. He’s been diligent on keeping his fish healthy for so long. Hopefully we can get this solved. 

On 5/11/2024 at 2:52 AM, DBrown918 said:

Gotcha, good to know

I know right! I always heard that and always followed it. Doing it in tank water, but oh so much easier in tap. But possibly not for a new tank. Ranks right up there with using a mister clean magic eraser to clean algae inside the tank. Who knew🤣

Edited May 11 by Tony s

[Tony s]

@DBrown918 if you want to know how ingrained the no chlorine thing is. Everything I see or hear tells me watch out for the chlorine. So I do. Constantly…. There is nobody putting chlorine in my water. We live in the country….  On a well…. It’s an impossibility of me having chlorine…. And yet I have to keep reminding myself “Hey you dingo, you don’t have chlorine “🤣🤣🤣   I think we’ve driven that point very well into all keepers. Which is helpful to most people.