Baffled by Wisteria

[TheChosenOne]

I'm long winded. Lifelong problem (writer) lol. 

I'm a bit baffled. I finally re-scaped an aquarium that I had running for about 6 years. I'm mostly did this because I was starting to see reduced plant growth specifically in my stem plants, even though my Anubias and other plants were suffering as well. I also started having to deal with green spot algae and green dust algae which is the first time I've had noticeable algae of any kind in this tank. The tank seems to be unbalanced, leading me to believe that the substrate was exhausted. Through dosing with root tabs and being more consistent with my liquid all in one(easy green), my ludwigia repens bounced back. 

 

And after a few months my water wisteria started having new growth at the tops only. However this new growth would eventually start to brown and seem to wilt/go limp And the stem never gets taller. I propagated and planted the newer growth directly in the substrate hoping it would grow a new. This is when I noticed that the stems were dying at the root level. The stems themselves were getting mushy and brown. Rotting at the base. The luigia eventually fully recovered. What was once a single surviving stem was propagated and replanted and grew back into a bushel that was up to the surface of the water. I also introduced some pearl weed knowing that it would soak up nutrients in the water to help me deal with the green spot algae and the green dust while I was also dosing small amounts of phosphorus. The pearl weed grew incredibly well. I've had to trim it multiple times. All the while the water wisteria continued to dwindle away. I even purchased new healthy wisteria only for it to die back. I also started to notice some of the remaining wisteria starting to present in it's wide leaf form. Which I've never seen before in wisteria that was already grown underwater. Over the course of several months and observing the different plants and what I thought was different deficiencies, I was dosing everything from phosphorus and potassium to flourish trace. All this lead me to rescape the tank eventually, in the hopes that some fresh substrate would help.

 

I'm several weeks into the rescape with mixed results. The ludwigia is once again growing like crazy. My S.Repens that were struggling are starting to bounce back pretty well. The pearl weed is once again growing like a weed. But my water wisteria and Hygrophila Corymbosa 'Compacta' seems to be struggling. Actually some of the compacta is doing well and some has pinholes. As the new setup is still settling in and only a few weeks old I'm not too concerned about the new plants struggling. I just find it odd that only the two hygroophilas are really suffering.   

 

I've mostly been using test strips as it's been a long time since I've been concerned about a swing in my water parameters. I had to toss some test strips as I guess they got exposed to moisture and stopped working. Using new Tetra easy strips the tank as of yesterday was nitrate above 40pm, nitrite 0, GH around 150- 300, chlorine , KH about 40 and PH around 6.8. if any of these seemed crazy to me I'd break out the master testkit but these are roughly the parameters that my tank has run at for years. I did do a 50% water change the other day just to reduce nitrates a bit as they were above 40 but possibly approaching 80. (Deciphering test strip colors can suck sometimes). I also had some green dust algae on the glass. I'm not running CO2 and the tank is using a hygger 26W 24/7 Lighting Aquarium LED Light. ( I got a new light at some point hoping that would help)

Short version: My water wisteria is hardly growing and some is dying back.  I'm getting new leaves at the top but no growth to the stem. The older leaves seem to be browning or maybe that's algae. But no real growth considering wisteria usually grows out of control. Ludwigia repens, pearl weed and java fern wendilov in same tank are growing very well. 

Any help or insights is welcome and helpful. I've included some photos from within the new setup. Sorry again for the long read. 

[Fish Folk]

I love a long read.

How deep is your tank?

Hygrophila difformis (Water Wisteria) will grow free-floating as well as planted. Try some floating for awhile.

[TheChosenOne]

On 3/2/2024 at 8:10 PM, Fish Folk said:

I love a long read.

How deep is your tank?

Hygrophila difformis (Water Wisteria) will grow free-floating as well as planted. Try some floating for awhile.

It's a 29 gallon if I recall it's 18 inches deep.  I've floated some recently for a bit. It wasn't dying but didn't get much growth either.  Will float some again for a while. 

Edited March 3 by TheChosenOne

[Fish Folk]

I've found that 29 gal / 55 gal  / 40 gal . . . each has a longer "throw" for light to reach depth. That can be a factor. On the other hand, you seem to really be on top of your chems and tests, so maybe there's something in the concern about old-tank syndrome.

I've tried to study up on theories of allelopathy, but nothing ever seems very concrete. My favorite Wisteria tank was a 20 gallon small goldfish tank my son kept up years ago. It was absolutely perfect with the Wisteria growth . . .

[cmo1922]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:43 PM, Fish Folk said:

I've found that 29 gal / 55 gal  / 40 gal . . . each has a longer "throw" for light to reach depth. That can be a factor. On the other hand, you seem to really be on top of your chems and tests, so maybe there's something in the concern about old-tank syndrome.

I've tried to study up on theories of allelopathy, but nothing ever seems very concrete. My favorite Wisteria tank was a 20 gallon small goldfish tank my son kept up years ago. It was absolutely perfect with the Wisteria growth . . .

Both points above I suspect in my own tanks. I keep low tech tanks. With fast growing stems like wisteria, ludwigia, rotala, mermaid weed, etc, I find that one type of stem plant ends up doing well for the long haul. Over time, the other stems will just die off. I suspect either there ends up being not enough light to support the stems as everything grows in, or some plants are just better at competing for nutrients which are more limited in low tech (carbon) as your plant mass gets larger. Or allelopathy, which I know very little about but have heard of.

So I typically just give up on the stem not doing well, float them for a bit to see if I can get the to come back, and perhaps try in a different or new tank and see if it takes hold there! 

[TheChosenOne]

On 3/3/2024 at 7:03 AM, cmo1922 said:

Both points above I suspect in my own tanks. I keep low tech tanks. With fast growing stems like wisteria, ludwigia, rotala, mermaid weed, etc, I find that one type of stem plant ends up doing well for the long haul. Over time, the other stems will just die off. I suspect either there ends up being not enough light to support the stems as everything grows in, or some plants are just better at competing for nutrients which are more limited in low tech (carbon) as your plant mass gets larger. Or allelopathy, which I know very little about but have heard of.

So I typically just give up on the stem not doing well, float them for a bit to see if I can get the to come back, and perhaps try in a different or new tank and see if it takes hold there! 

If that ends up being the case I will give up on the pearl weed and toss it in my quarantine/daphnia/catchall tank. Wisteria is like my favorite plant at this point.  I'm going to float some as sort of a control group and wait and see how things settle in. 

[Tanked]

Wisteria baffles me also.  It is #3 on the list of invasive weeds that won't grow in my planted 29.  Wisteria will grow poorly in the 75 with a stock light, but   eventually the stem seems to rot off, or I just have a tall weak plant.  I have the same problem with PSO.

At the same time, both plants will grow in my 10 gal. project tank which is low or no tech/maintenance depending on my mood.  It does get 16 hours of light from an LED flashlight.  Even more baffling is why my the most recent plants have never put out the lacy converted leaves.

 

[JoeQ]

Just a quick thought have you tried planting the wisteria in different locations in the tank? Reason I ask is because early in my tank journey I was also baffled by why wisteria wouldn't grow in my tank. Turns out it was because where I planted it just wasn't optimal for various reasons.

[TheChosenOne]

On 3/16/2024 at 2:19 PM, JoeQ said:

Just a quick thought have you tried planting the wisteria in different locations in the tank? Reason I ask is because early in my tank journey I was also baffled by why wisteria wouldn't grow in my tank. Turns out it was because where I planted it just wasn't optimal for various reasons.

i haven't but i'm not opposed to this. The issue being that in the past wisteria was my best growing plant or at least the one that grew the fastest and I have it planted in the exact same spots now.   I've been taking the wait and be patient route the last few weeks.  Trying not to make too many changes too often.  But at this point the only thing left for me to reassess is my lighting.   Everything else in the tank is taking off and doing well but I have wisteria planted at both side of the tank in the background.  So I imagine that if my light is week on the sides at the back as many lights are that could be the issue. 

[JoeQ]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:19 PM, TheChosenOne said:

i haven't but i'm not opposed to this. The issue being that in the past wisteria was my best growing plant or at least the one that grew the fastest and I have it planted in the exact same spots now.   I've been taking the wait and be patient route the last few weeks.  Trying not to make too many changes too often.  But at this point the only thing left for me to reassess is my lighting.   Everything else in the tank is taking off and doing well but I have wisteria planted at both side of the tank in the background.  So I imagine that if my light is week on the sides at the back as many lights are that could be the issue. 

What about fertilizer dose? As you loose or gain plant mass ideally your dose should also change. 

[TheChosenOne]

On 4/1/2024 at 7:26 AM, JoeQ said:

What about fertilizer dose? As you loose or gain plant mass ideally your dose should also change. 

I've considered this. I'm not on my 3rd batch of wisteria and it all seems to have stunted growth.  Between fresh aquasoil and liquid ferts there so be no shortage of nutrients based on my previous experience with water wisteria.  Also there is the fact that everything else in the tank is growing like a weed. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @TheChosenOne,

First of all I understand the frustration when I think I am doing everything correctly but the results fall short of expectations.  Thank you for the water parameters you provided, it helps to eliminate some of the possible causes.  Could you please tell me where you are located and the name of your water utility so I can check for their water analysis online (if it is posted).  Thank you, -Roy

[TheChosenOne]

On 4/13/2024 at 2:57 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @TheChosenOne,

First of all I understand the frustration when I think I am doing everything correctly but the results fall short of expectations.  Thank you for the water parameters you provided, it helps to eliminate some of the possible causes.  Could you please tell me where you are located and the name of your water utility so I can check for their water analysis online (if it is posted).  Thank you, -Roy

I'll DM it to you. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @TheChosenOne,

First of all thank you for your location information.  Here is the water analysis that you did verses the water analysis from your local water provider and I found some interesting results.  First your readings:

Here is the annual water analysis of your local water utility by month for 2023:

First of all the results you got using test a test strip to determine total hardness (dGH) that appears to be "very hard / 300 ppm" which equates to dGH@16.7.  The alkalinity on the strips look like about "40 ppm" which equates to a dKH of about 2.2 dKH (soft).  Now let's look at the analysis from your local water utility with results done in a lab.  Those results show an average Total Hardness of 120 ppm (1 mg/l = ppm) which equates to a dGH of 6.7 which is moderately soft.  There is a with a fairly large fluctuation between winter readings and summer readings.  In the summer months the highest reading for Total Hardness was 200 ppm.  If you tank is actually 300 ppm where is  that extra Total Hardness (dGH / calcium + magnesium) coming from?  Possibly the stones in the tank are not inert and contain calcium which is increasing the calcium level which will effect the Total Hardness.  Especially if 50% weekly water changes are not being done conscientiously.

As for the Total Alkalinity the test strips indicated about a 40 ppm (2.2 dKH) and the lab analysis indicates the average is 93 mg/l (ppm) or abut 5.4 dKH.

So what did I see when I looked in your tank?  Actually the Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) didn't look too bad.  However the Ludwigia provided some clues.

#1 The new leaves emerge looking fairly healthy.  #2 Shortly after emerging they show signs of "puckering".  #3 As the leaves mature they start to lose their healthy green color and the margins curl.  And #4 as the condition progresses the green coloration almost completely disappears unmasking the purple color you see.

The fact that new leaves seem to emerge healthy and as the leaves mature indicate the issue is likely related to one of the 'mobile nutrients' (a nutrient a plant can move from one area to an area where it is most needed, typically new growth.  There are many mobile nutrients including all of the macro nutrients (nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus) as well as the secondary nutrient magnesium and various micro nutrients.

But what is the likely issue we see in your tank?  At first I thought it might be potassium but I don't see the small round pinholes of necrosis (dead tissue) that normally accompanies if the issue is insufficient available potassium (K).  I decided to look into the calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg) levels of your tap water.

As you can see above the average calcium level over the course of the year is 27.4 ppm and the average magnesium level is 7.9.  which gives a Ca:Mg ratio of about 3.7:1.  This is actually very good since I usually target a Ca:Mg ratio of 3:1 - 4:1 in my tanks.  However, with the 300 ppm hardness and excess calcium in the test result it is likely that the Ca:Mg ratio in the tank currently is more like 4.5:1 with excessive calcium.

Here is the description of symptoms for insufficient magnesium:
 

Quote

Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern.  Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely; plant may die.

Keeping in mind each plant species responds differently to various deficiencies although I do not see pronounced interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves of the Ludwigia the other symptoms regarding loss of green color, unmasking of other leaf pigments due to lack of chlorophyll, and curling of leaf margins are all there.

If there is limestone in the rocks used, or if individuals add crushed coral to their tanks, both of which are comprised of calcium carbonate then likelihood of insufficient available magnesium symptoms increase even if there is sufficient magnesium in the water this is due to the reduced Mg uptake by the plants.  Depending upon the amount of excess calcium in the tank the effect can be quite drastic.  Weekly 50% water changes may help to mitigate the effect if the amount of calcium in the tank is minimal.  Using CO2 to increase plant growth, which increases the acidity of the tanks, accelerates the decomposition of the calcium carbonate and can exacerbate the problem.

What are your thoughts @TheChosenOne?  -Roy (and you thought you were 'long-winded' lol)

Edited April 15 by Seattle_Aquarist

[TheChosenOne]

@Seattle_Aquarist wow thank you for this analysis! Way more in-depth than I was capable on my own.  The crazy thing is a number of weeks ago while I was reacquainting myself with nutrient deficiencies as I tried to troubleshoot\diagnosis my plant issues, I came across something where someone mentioned the relationship between calcium, magnesium and something else.  That lead me to be curious about exactly what you've come to the conclusion of here. And I have in fact added crushed coral to my tank; my attempt to improve the shells of my ramshorn snails (i know some hate them or view them as pests but I love my blue ramshorns.  At the time of learning about this nutrient connection i didn't really have any way to really determine if that was the issue or which of the too is out of whack but after your breakdown it totally makes sense that, that would be the issue. And your point about different plants being affected differently would also explain why most of the plants are growing well while the wisteria seems stunted. 

The good news is this will be easy to test for me, as my crushed coral is in a mess bag behind my stones so i can easily remove it and perform a 50% water change and then be patient and wait. I think I'll do a before and after photo just to track the change.   Talk about getting in your own way lol!!  Thanks again. 

Edited April 15 by TheChosenOne

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/14/2024 at 8:48 PM, TheChosenOne said:

@Seattle_Aquarist wow thank you for this analysis! Way more in-depth than I was capable on my own.  The crazy thing is a number of weeks ago while I was reacquainting myself with nutrient deficiencies as I tried to troubleshoot\diagnosis my plant issues, I came across something where someone mentioned the relationship between calcium, magnesium and something else.  That lead me to be curious about exactly what you've come to the conclusion of here. And I have in fact added crushed coral to my tank; my attempt to improve the shells of my ramshorn snails (i know some hate them or view them as pests but I love my blue ramshorns.  At the time of learning about this nutrient connection i didn't really have any way to really determine if that was the issue or which of the too is out of whack but after your breakdown it totally makes sense that, that would be the issue. And your point about different plants being affected differently would also explain why most of the plants are growing well while the wisteria seems stunted. 

The good news is this will be easy to test for me, as my crushed coral is in a mess bag behind my stones so i can easily remove it and perform a 50% water change and then be patient and wait. I think I'll do a before and after photo just to track the change.   Talk about getting in your own way lol!!  Thanks again. 

Hi @TheChosenOne,

Good move putting the crushed coral in a mesh bag.  The shells of the snails are composed of calcium carbonate just as is crushed coral.  If the shells start to show signs of deterioration you can always drop in the crushed coral for a short time.  However, if you have not had problems in the past with the snail shells it is likely that there is sufficient calcium in your water supply and dissolved carbon dioxide in the water that adding crushed coral will not be necessary.

After you remove the crushed coral I would do (2) 50% water changes over the next 3-5 days do 'reset' the tank and reduce the amount of excess calcium.  Then do the following.

Since your local water has a slightly high Ca:Mg ratio, and your plants already show issues with insufficient magnesium (Mg) I would recommend adding additional Mg to the tank.  I personally try for a 3:1 ration and use magnesium sulfate (MgSO4 / Epsom Salt).  Buy the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives or scents.  Should cost about $1 per pound.  Do an initial dose of 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons, this will increase your magnesium level by about 1.66 ppm.  When you do your weekly water changes add 1/8 teaspoon for every 10 gallons removed and replaced.  Continue this for the next 4 - 6 weeks and watch the new growth as it emerges and matures.  Do NOT WATCH EXISTING LEAVES...THEY WILL NOT IMPROVE.  Does the new growth look greener?  Possibly the leaves will be larger and the growth rate will increase.  More importantly as the leaves mature they should maintain good color and shape and not die prematurely.  Why?  Magnesium is an absolute necessity for the process of photosynthesis which give plants their green color and provides the necessary sugars plant need for good growth and health.  Hope this helps! -Roy